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Roster Talk '13 — Russia

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Old
12-21-2012, 11:25 AM
  #351
smitty10
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Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Stefan? As in Patrik Stefan?
Not only was he Czech, not Russian, but he was drafted out of a North American professional league that was on par with the AHL. How does his development compare at all to the players he mentioned?

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12-21-2012, 11:36 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by smitty10 View Post
Not only was he Czech, not Russian, but he was drafted out of a North American professional league that was on par with the AHL. How does his development compare at all to the players he mentioned?
it is a example, 1st overall does not mean you will be star. Young russians choose CHL to be drafted, bad attitude. They would do better if stayed in khl until 22y or so and then move to NA

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12-21-2012, 12:18 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by coursy17 View Post
i understand this is a better russian defense then recently. but if you stack them up against canadas and usas defense its not even close. especially with the loss of naumenkov and the cutting of zadorov this defense isnt good. be prepared to see russia geet outshot 50-20 again and pray for their high powered offense to put up goals because this defense isnt capable of winning battles. you cant honestly tell me your happy zadorov was cut and can bring justice to that decision. its bs if your a russian fan tell me it was the right thing if you do your lying. no naumenkov no zadorov. good luck ttyl
Your spelling is awful. Why should anyone take you seriously.

Russia has some good defensemen. It's the coach I'm worried about.

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12-21-2012, 12:34 PM
  #354
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
it is a example, 1st overall does not mean you will be star. Young russians choose CHL to be drafted, bad attitude. They would do better if stayed in khl until 22y or so and then move to NA
It's a very poor example. First, he isn't Russian, so I'm not sure how that proves anything when arguing about the benefit of your development system over the Canadian one. Second, he never played in the CHL, which is the league you say ruins these prospects. Third, he played in the IHL against men at a young age, which you seem to prefer with the great prospects being able to join the KHL early. Fourth, playing against men too early is what put him in a position to get injured, which he did with multiple concussions, which is what hurt his development more than anything. Fifth, you picked someone from the worst draft class in the last 20+ years as an example. For all those reasons, he is a horrible candidate for you to use to prove your point.

I agree that with most prospects, having to adjust to a new language, country, rink size, game to practice ratio, coaching and style of play is a poor decision. That adjustment period takes time away that could be used for development and confidence can go away quickly when success becomes harder. However, for the elite players, they will make it no matter where they learn. That comes down to their own commitment, training and practice habits. Not every Russian prospect that comes to the CHL is elite. Neither are all the Canadians. Not all of them will develop as well as the others. First round picks bust out every year. Blaming the CHL is a poor excuse. For some players, it will refine certain aspects to their game that playing in Russia might not. And the league is closer to an NHL style of play and schedule, which can help the transition too. But as I have said before, for most prospects, sticking with the system that has brought you successful development is probably the best decision.

That being said, much of the blame of lack of development should come down on the individual. Why does an undrafted OHL player like Matt Cooke end up improving and making it to the NHL? How does a ninth round pick like David Jones find himself playing wing on a line with Forsberg and Sakic? How does Crosby go from one of the worst face off guys to one of the best over an off season? It always comes back to the work that each individual player puts in to practicing and learning the game.

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:57 PM
  #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
you realise that Grigorenko and Zadarov have become much better players since joining the CHL right? would they have developed in Russia more? maybe or maybe not.
your arguement is very flawed.
lol, what?

Grigorenko left russia as a 17 year old, already established player and rocked your leagues, now look at his stats in Russian MHL???

Tolchinskiy last year in Russia had decent stats, look at his stats in the CHL...u think their development happened in the CHL, lol? Did you even read my previous post or you are too ignorant?

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Old
12-21-2012, 02:51 PM
  #356
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With the OHL ruining everybody, shouldn't Yakupov not be able to do anything in the KHL? 18 points in 22 games playing limited minutes is pretty good, no? But I thought the OHL was such a terrible, unevolved, un-Russian hockey once you go OHL, you can never go back.

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12-21-2012, 03:54 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Going individually, one by one, how would you assess each of the Russian defensemen? Also, please tell us the basis to support your assessment, and how often you've seen them play. I am hoping that you will go beyond "they suck," and offer some quality analysis of their strengths and weaknesses. Try to compare them to the Finnish defense as individuals - the ones who held "high-powered" Canada to 2 goals yesterday, and Nugent-Hopkins to 1 assist.
Exhibition. Hasn't the Russian squad lost both its Pre Tournament games? As for comparing the defense, I have watched the summer series and the SSS. For me the most impressive defenseman was Naumenkov and hes injured. I think Nesterov, and mironov are good. Sergeev, Yarullin, Koledov havent done much from what I have seen. I guess I probably was out of line to say Russias defense "sucks" I just think it was a really poor decision regarding Zadorov. As for Nugent-Hopkins I think we can all agree he is the best player in the tournament by far and his numbers in the real games will prove it.

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Old
12-21-2012, 03:56 PM
  #358
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Also I'm on Christmas break im not in the mood to type with perfect grammar does it really matter

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12-21-2012, 04:38 PM
  #359
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Originally Posted by coursy17 View Post
I just think it was a really poor decision regarding Zadorov. .
But he was not going to get much if any ice time anyway.

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12-21-2012, 04:50 PM
  #360
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Also the CHL argument has always been that the cream rises to the top, as in the elite Russian's will do well in both leagues. A lot of Russians are better off staying in Russia, polishing the rough edges of their game instead of going to a new country, environment, culture, and playing a completely new style of hockey. It means they are caught in limbo, they fail to fully develop their Russian game and more often than not are not able to adapt to the development CHL. What does that mean? Well once they are supposed to be ready for the NHL you have a incomplete flashy product that brings nothing to your team.

The top young Russian players will always go to the NHL, why not go to the NHL when they are 20-22 and have learned everything they can learn in Russia and then adjust to the NHL at a mature age.

I seriously don't believe someone like Datsyuk who came to the NHL at 23 would be the player he is today if he left for North America at 17 and had to learn a new way of playing hockey. He became an even better player in the NHL thanks to Detroit after he had learned everything he had to learn in Russia.

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Old
12-21-2012, 06:44 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
lol, what?

Grigorenko left russia as a 17 year old, already established player and rocked your leagues, now look at his stats in Russian MHL???

Tolchinskiy last year in Russia had decent stats, look at his stats in the CHL...u think their development happened in the CHL, lol? Did you even read my previous post or you are too ignorant?
Grigorenko left Russia as a dynamic offensive player with no defensive game at all and wasent great away from the puck, he has improved that alot since coming to North America. Tolchinskiy the guy with 27 points in 34 games? that is pretty decent for a first year player in the CHL.

Arrogant? your the one being that..


Also why did you quote me and then call me arrogant when this wasent a response to your post?

I am not saying CHL is good or bad for a players development but your guys act that the CHL ruins some of your average prospects when they come over, alot of a players development is determined by themselves. Canada develops the best players in the world and the CHL is the best developmental league in the world.


Last edited by 1972: 12-21-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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Old
12-21-2012, 06:46 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by Fantomas View Post
Your spelling is awful. Why should anyone take you seriously.

Russia has some good defensemen. It's the coach I'm worried about.
who cares? you could find grammar errors in every thread, its a internet forum not an essay.


Last edited by 1972: 12-21-2012 at 07:01 PM.
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Old
12-21-2012, 07:37 PM
  #363
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I don't really see how they are learning a new style of game, most of them come over and play the russian style game still. I didn't see Yakupov playing the dump and chase, he would dangle through everyone. Even with Goldobin his 1st year in the ohl it doesn't look like he's changed his game at all he always turns back 2 or 3 times before entering the zone, he takes risky chances with passes and stick handling at the blueline. The overall style may be different but the russian players still play the same way they did in russia.

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Old
12-21-2012, 07:39 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Grigorenko left Russia as a dynamic offensive player with no defensive game at all and wasent great away from the puck, he has improved that alot since coming to North America. Tolchinskiy the guy with 27 points in 34 games? that is pretty decent for a first year player in the CHL.

Arrogant? your the one being that..


Also why did you quote me and then call me arrogant when this wasent a response to your post?

I am not saying CHL is good or bad for a players development but your guys act that the CHL ruins some of your average prospects when they come over, alot of a players development is determined by themselves. Canada develops the best players in the world and the CHL is the best developmental league in the world.
Already discussed in previous posts.

Grigorenko's 2 way game is better, but he's lost some of his elite vision and creativity he showed in Russia. His elite talents (that should have been fostered) have been somewhat sacrificed in order to learn the NA game.

The CHL is a great development league for North Americans.....it generally isn't for Russians.

For that same reason, a NA player would be an idiot if he decided to drop his NA training and chose to develop in a vastly different manner the MHL at 16 y.o.......even if his objective was to become a KHL player.

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12-21-2012, 07:48 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Already discussed in previous posts.

Grigorenko's 2 way game is better, but he's lost some of his elite vision and creativity he showed in Russia. His elite talents (that should have been fostered) have been somewhat sacrificed in order to learn the NA game.

The CHL is a great development league for North Americans.....it generally isn't for Russians.

For that same reason, a NA player would be an idiot if he decided to drop his NA training and chose to develop in a vastly different manner the MHL at 16 y.o.......even if his objective was to become a KHL player.


I agree with that

I would agree its probably better for Russian prospects to develop in Russia, but you cant say that is the case for all players. I think it was a very good decision for Grigorenko and even Yakupov to come over.

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12-21-2012, 08:20 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
[/B]

I agree with that

I would agree its probably better for Russian prospects to develop in Russia, but you cant say that is the case for all players. I think it was a very good decision for Grigorenko and even Yakupov to come over.
Two different players, agree on Yakupov but Grigorenko's offensive game still needed work before going over to North America, now it looks as though his decision making has become worse. His defensive game has improved a lot compared to in Russia but his offensive game has stagnated. The number of Canadians playing hockey is 7 times higher than in Russia, hence why Russians worry about any young talented player leaving for North America too early.

@leafsfan1990 the development and style of hockey is completely different in both countries.

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12-21-2012, 08:54 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
@leafsfan1990 the development and style of hockey is completely different in both countries.
That's a little strong. I think it's better to say that some players' play styles that do not mesh well with the other kind of hockey (North American or Russian). So you have some players that can make the jump and also some that cannot. This is only natural because the bigger ice requires different use of time and space.

But there are some Russian players who come over and are just fine, like Yakupov. I think if very talented players who came to the CHL and didn't do well and did not make the NHL were truly incompatible with the North American game, they could just go back to Russia and be fine. I don't see how just playing in the CHL a little would ruin them for life.

But the players that didn't turn out in either the KHL and NHL were just not good enough in the end, not casualties of the CHL. No league could have saved them from that.

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12-21-2012, 08:58 PM
  #368
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
So what Canadian players call progressing throughout the year (in case of Zadorov), he's just trying to rich his level, where he was last year and adjust it to new environment, instead of REALLY PROGRESSING in the MHL, possibly VHL.
The bit you're missing here is what RUSSIAN fans call progressing is in the MHL, which is the feeder league to the KHL.

What Canadian fans call progressing is in the CHL, where you learn how to play in the NHL.

It sounds like you think it would be better if Zadorov were KHL-bound and not NHL-bound.

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12-21-2012, 09:19 PM
  #369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
The bit you're missing here is what RUSSIAN fans call progressing is in the MHL, which is the feeder league to the KHL.

What Canadian fans call progressing is in the CHL, where you learn how to play in the NHL.

It sounds like you think it would be better if Zadorov were KHL-bound and not NHL-bound.
true to a degree, but also a better player, had he stayed at home, his ceiling would have been higher, imho.

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12-21-2012, 09:21 PM
  #370
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darcy Regier View Post
Grigorenko left Russia as a dynamic offensive player with no defensive game at all and wasent great away from the puck, he has improved that alot since coming to North America. Tolchinskiy the guy with 27 points in 34 games? that is pretty decent for a first year player in the CHL.

Arrogant? your the one being that..


Also why did you quote me and then call me arrogant when this wasent a response to your post?

I am not saying CHL is good or bad for a players development but your guys act that the CHL ruins some of your average prospects when they come over, alot of a players development is determined by themselves. Canada develops the best players in the world and the CHL is the best developmental league in the world.
had you read my post (doesn't matter who you are replying to) you would have understood what we are all trying to make. Grigorenko has lost his amazing offensive fare and became a 2nd line NHL project instead of being first line Russian super star.

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12-21-2012, 09:30 PM
  #371
1972
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
had you read my post (doesn't matter who you are replying to) you would have understood what we are all trying to make. Grigorenko has lost his amazing offensive fare and became a 2nd line NHL project instead of being first line Russian super star.
You seem to think your opinions are fact. My opinion is that he has all the tools to be an impact player and its up to him if he becomes one.


Last edited by 1972: 12-21-2012 at 09:42 PM.
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Old
12-22-2012, 01:35 AM
  #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
The bit you're missing here is what RUSSIAN fans call progressing is in the MHL, which is the feeder league to the KHL.

What Canadian fans call progressing is in the CHL, where you learn how to play in the NHL.

It sounds like you think it would be better if Zadorov were KHL-bound and not NHL-bound.
This^.

The CHL is the best developmental league for players wanting to play in the NHL.

The Euro leagues are better for players wanting to play pro in Europe.

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12-22-2012, 01:44 AM
  #373
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
This^.

The CHL is the best developmental league for players wanting to play in the NHL.

The Euro leagues are better for players wanting to play pro in Europe.
9 times out of 10 a kid growing up in any country wants to "play in the nhl" not "play in the khl" or "play in the SM-liiga" so on and so forth.

What I've learned from this thread is that if a player from Russia comes to the CHL and doesn't do as well its because the CHL doesnt develop him. But if a player comes and does very well then its a miracle or somehow someway they still aren't up to par with the kids in Russia because their competition is "better." So basically if they leave Russia its gonna cause a problem anyway with the fans and coaches of Russia.

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12-22-2012, 02:30 AM
  #374
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
This^.

The CHL is the best developmental league for players wanting to play in the NHL.

The Euro leagues are better for players wanting to play pro in Europe.
The European youth leagues have produced some amazing NHL players so I'm not sure that's entirely correct.

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12-22-2012, 02:31 AM
  #375
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Originally Posted by coursy17 View Post
But if a player comes and does very well then someway they still aren't up to par with the kids in Russia because their competition is "better." So basically if they leave Russia its gonna cause a problem anyway with the fans and coaches of Russia.
Where has anyone said this

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