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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

Roster Talk '13 — Russia

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:40 AM
  #526
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by MOGiLNY View Post
Canada didn't send its team to the Olympics for a long time and now argues that all those gold medals that Soviet Union won were illegitimate because Canadians weren't present....ended up "blinking first"
An incredible amount of wrong for just one sentence.

First, Canada didn't 'blink' because Canada never had a choice about what players it could send to the Olympics... Professional players were not allowed, and Canada's best were playing professional hockey. So were Russia's but the ridiculous sham of 'amateur' hockey in Soviet-era allowed them to circumvent the rules.

And no says those Gold medals don't count... Just that when Russia fans want to trot them out as evidence of hockey dominance, it gets pointed out (quite rightly) that they were never best-on-best tournaments.

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12-27-2012, 09:15 AM
  #527
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
An incredible amount of wrong for just one sentence.

First, Canada didn't 'blink' because Canada never had a choice about what players it could send to the Olympics... Professional players were not allowed, and Canada's best were playing professional hockey. So were Russia's but the ridiculous sham of 'amateur' hockey in Soviet-era allowed them to circumvent the rules.

And no says those Gold medals don't count... Just that when Russia fans want to trot them out as evidence of hockey dominance, it gets pointed out (quite rightly) that they were never best-on-best tournaments.
One could also make the point that those soviet teams were not only "professional" but in fact largely came from one team (CSKA)that was promoted for the purpose of dominating international tourneys. Not only that but the players were sequestered.

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12-27-2012, 10:11 AM
  #528
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by DisgruntledGoat View Post
An incredible amount of wrong for just one sentence.

First, Canada didn't 'blink' because Canada never had a choice about what players it could send to the Olympics... Professional players were not allowed, and Canada's best were playing professional hockey. So were Russia's but the ridiculous sham of 'amateur' hockey in Soviet-era allowed them to circumvent the rules.

And no says those Gold medals don't count... Just that when Russia fans want to trot them out as evidence of hockey dominance, it gets pointed out (quite rightly) that they were never best-on-best tournaments.
The Soviet players made less money than the Canadian amateurs that received stipends for representing Canada in the Olympics and other tournaments. During the 50's and 60's, the NHL didn't believe that the Soviets could compete with the best of the NHL. From 1972 thereafter, the NHL acknowledged that the Soviets were at least fully equal to the best of the NHL. The NHL could have pressed to enter the Olympics much earlier (the IOC would have welcomed it), but they waited until the Soviet juggernaut was defunct, and all of its components were dispersed to different teams in the NHL, before deciding to go ahead and enter the Olympic arena. Prior to 1992, Canadian all-star teams composed of the best of the NHL only played the Soviets under their own terms, when they could play at home with their own rules, referees and fans.

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12-27-2012, 10:18 AM
  #529
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Originally Posted by KevyD View Post
Call it whatever you like, and...

If you dislike the scheduling or feel contempt for the influence Canada has, feel free not to send a team. Canadians will continue to support the tournament, other countries will get more Canadian dollars and we can see who blinks first. I bet you come crawling back before we do.
Why do Canadian only focus on dollars when it comes to hockey? What is more important: (1) having a competition to see which nation has the best hockey team, or (2), hitting a revenue target formulated in advance, like General Motors or Wal-Mart.? For me, I think the former is more important. i never think of hockey as strictly a for-profit enterprise.

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12-27-2012, 10:23 AM
  #530
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
The Soviet players made less money than the Canadian amateurs that received stipends for representing Canada in the Olympics and other tournaments. During the 50's and 60's, the NHL didn't believe that the Soviets could compete with the best of the NHL. From 1972 thereafter, the NHL acknowledged that the Soviets were at least fully equal to the best of the NHL. The NHL could have pressed to enter the Olympics much earlier (the IOC would have welcomed it), but they waited until the Soviet juggernaut was defunct, and all of its components were dispersed to different teams in the NHL, before deciding to go ahead and enter the Olympic arena. Prior to 1992, Canadian all-star teams composed of the best of the NHL only played the Soviets under their own terms, when they could play at home with their own rules, referees and fans.
1992 was the first year of the US dream team in basketball. A change in rules.

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12-27-2012, 10:32 AM
  #531
Yakushev72
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
One could also make the point that those soviet teams were not only "professional" but in fact largely came from one team (CSKA)that was promoted for the purpose of dominating international tourneys. Not only that but the players were sequestered.
You must have read Larionov's whining book, about how he was forced to train hard to play hockey, so that he could have privileges denied to other Soviet citizens, avoid six years of spartan military service, and later sign big contracts in the NHL based on the skills developed by his "captors" at CSKA. There were hundreds or thousands of other hockey players who would do anything in their power to reach the level of "suffering" that he achieved. I'm still weeping in sympathy after reading it.

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12-27-2012, 10:35 AM
  #532
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
1992 was the first year of the US dream team in basketball. A change in rules.
In the early 1980's, the IOC permitted professional track and field athletes, some of whom who had made millions, to compete.

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12-27-2012, 10:37 AM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
To be fair, rarely does anybody but Canada care to host the WJC.
How do you know that?

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12-27-2012, 10:37 AM
  #534
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It's a fair suspension for a bit of nasty stick work that didn't cause a serious injury, just a little blood.
It's like "a nasty boarding when the victim instantly got up and continued the play".
I agree with a suspension (wtf was Maxim thinking?), but it wasn't nasty.

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12-27-2012, 10:39 AM
  #535
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
Cool lets call it the canada junior cup.

Just like canada has the first major world championship tourney the quebec peewee tourney.

Should we start complaining in Canada because we wont get to host the football world cup (and rightfully so)?

Fact is very few europeans give a **** about hockey compared to canada. Heck maybe even part of the US.

I went to CSKA game last year and you get more fans to a WHL game in the US.
All of this is irrelevant to fairly balancing the competition.

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12-27-2012, 10:45 AM
  #536
Lonny Bohonos
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
You must have read Larionov's whining book, about how he was forced to train hard to play hockey, so that he could have privileges denied to other Soviet citizens, avoid six years of spartan military service, and later sign big contracts in the NHL based on the skills developed by his "captors" at CSKA. There were hundreds or thousands of other hockey players who would do anything in their power to reach the level of "suffering" that he achieved. I'm still weeping in sympathy after reading it.
I dont get what your point is?



Fact is the national team was made up of players predominately from one team as designed by the soviets.

The players were essentially sequestered.

Has nothing to do with Larinovs book which i have not read.

The equivalent would be if canada put all the best players on one jinior team and then one NHL team and sequestered them.

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12-27-2012, 10:48 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
It's like "a nasty boarding when the victim instantly got up and continued the play".
I agree with a suspension (wtf was Maxim thinking?), but it wasn't nasty.
I agree that it was a cross check, and that a double minor may have been warranted based on the fact that blood was drawn. The video shows that the Slovak player was making an illegal hit (interference, since the puck was long gone), and Shalunov raised his stick up below his chest to fend the hit off. The Slovak player is clearly falling, which Shalunov couldn't have anticipated, and his head is below Shalunov's chest. There is no video evidence to suggest that the hit was deliberate, such as the Jenner hit which ended the Swedish player's season. i think that the suspension was unwarranted.

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12-27-2012, 10:58 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Lonny Bohonos View Post
I dont get what your point is?



Fact is the national team was made up of players predominately from one team as designed by the soviets.

The players were essentially sequestered.

Has nothing to do with Larinovs book which i have not read.

The equivalent would be if canada put all the best players on one jinior team and then one NHL team and sequestered them.
I was trying to figure out what you were talking about regarding "sequestering." What difference does it make what training methods the Soviets used, or whether many of the players came from the same team? Yes, the Soviets were trying to build a team that would dominate at the Olympics and the WHC. Any nation, Canada included, could have used any methods they wanted to do the same thing. If that doesn't fit into your hockey culture, why does that justify forcing the rest of the World to mimic it?

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12-27-2012, 02:59 PM
  #539
DisgruntledGoat
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
I was trying to figure out what you were talking about regarding "sequestering." What difference does it make what training methods the Soviets used, or whether many of the players came from the same team? Yes, the Soviets were trying to build a team that would dominate at the Olympics and the WHC. Any nation, Canada included, could have used any methods they wanted to do the same thing. If that doesn't fit into your hockey culture, why does that justify forcing the rest of the World to mimic it?
Defending the Soviet empire by claiming big, bad Canada is the one that wants to 'force' the rest of the world to mimic it??? Occupied Eastern Europe says hello.

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12-27-2012, 03:06 PM
  #540
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
From 1972 thereafter, the NHL acknowledged that the Soviets were at least fully equal to the best of the NHL. The NHL could have pressed to enter the Olympics much earlier (the IOC would have welcomed it), but they waited until the Soviet juggernaut was defunct, and all of its components were dispersed to different teams in the NHL, before deciding to go ahead and enter the Olympic arena
Yes, that's right. 1970s era Hockey Canada correctly predicted the fall of the Eastern Bloc accurately and made a 30-year plan to maximize the prestige of Canadian hockey accordingly.

Why are the Americans funding the CIA for billions of dollars a year??? They should just hire Hockey Canada!

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12-27-2012, 04:25 PM
  #541
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Originally Posted by kp61c View Post
its unfair to call this event WJC when canada hosts every second tournament and has an advantage over the other teams. i think Canada Junior Cup would be a great name
It is often played in Canada because we have the capacity to host it with a high rate of attendance. It is far from the case in other countries. We're the only country that cares about the tournament no? That's what everyone is saying. If it wasn't for TSN, this tournament would be as obscur as all the other junior tournaments. TSN single handily raised this tournament to a viable tournament at least in Canada. In this scenario, Canada deserve to be the host this often. If European countries start to get the same success, then I'm sure you'd host it more often.

You don't see Canada hosting the World Championship often do you? It's the same concept, Europeans care more about the tournament so you guys host it. Why is this so hard to understand?

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Originally Posted by MOGiLNY View Post
if you are going to argue economics, then hosting the tournament in Canada is always going to make the most money for IIHF.

the idea of hosting the tournament in different locations though, is to promote the sport and encourage growth in countries other than Canada and holding it in Canada and consequently in North America for many, many years doesn't encourage much progress outside the local rinks.

nobody aside from Hockey Canada and IIHF as organizations has profited from this. look at how many competitive countries we get in these tournaments and how many countries have developed over the years.
The question is, do European cities want to host this tournament knowing they're not going to make money? What city wants to host an event to lose money? Have you thought about that? Maybe Canada host it every 2 years because there's not enough European cities that step forward and give their candidacy to host the tournament.


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12-28-2012, 08:00 AM
  #542
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Originally Posted by Canuck21t View Post
The question is, do European cities want to host this tournament knowing they're not going to make money? What city wants to host an event to lose money? Have you thought about that? Maybe Canada host it every 2 years because there's not enough European cities that step forward and give their candidacy to host the tournament.
how much money are they really losing from hosting these tournaments? this isn't the Olympics we are talking about here. cities don't build rinks, roads or hotels in order to accommodate the fans and players and use the existing infrastructure. where do expenses come from?

half the games at the 2011 Buffalo WJC were held in some high school shack, for example. it's not an expensive tournament to hold and I don't see why cities in Russia, Sweden, Finland, Czech Republic, Switzerland or even Germany would be opposed to hosting it.

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12-28-2012, 10:27 PM
  #543
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Alot of your key players in the win v.s USA were CHL players and the majority of the MHL/CHL players were non factors Sigarev, Kapustin, Mozer etc even Slepshev was average at best. While players like Zharkov and Sergeev as well as Makarov made major contributions. Not pumping up the league but maybe the prospects who go to the CHL aren't being harmed as much as some make it seem?

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12-28-2012, 10:39 PM
  #544
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Alot of your key players in the win v.s USA were CHL players and the majority of the MHL/CHL players were non factors Sigarev, Kapustin, Mozer etc even Slepshev was average at best. While players like Zharkov and Sergeev as well as Makarov made major contributions. Not pumping up the league but maybe the prospects who go to the CHL aren't being harmed as much as some make it seem?
they are much better prospects to begin with.

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12-28-2012, 10:46 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by wings5 View Post
Alot of your key players in the win v.s USA were CHL players and the majority of the MHL/CHL players were non factors Sigarev, Kapustin, Mozer etc even Slepshev was average at best. While players like Zharkov and Sergeev as well as Makarov made major contributions. Not pumping up the league but maybe the prospects who go to the CHL aren't being harmed as much as some make it seem?
Yarullin and Nesterov were the best defenders for Russia. Nichushkin was dominant and only 17 Sigaryov and Yakupov were rubbish. Zharkov was average. You would have had a point if you were not so biased in your post I have always stressed that moving to the CHL is up to the individual player and where he is with his development but I still think the majority of Russian players are better off moving to NA at 20-22 after polishing their games in Russia.

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12-28-2012, 11:00 PM
  #546
wings5
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they are much better prospects to begin with.
Strange I would have gotten the feeling Slepshev and Sigarev were better prospects than the likes of Zharkov based on what I've heard

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01-03-2013, 09:43 AM
  #547
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How come Nail Yakupov is team captain? Kid never struct me as a leader.

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