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Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:30 PM
  #701
New Liskeard
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Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
Steve Fehr is not really like Donald.

Donald Fehr has proven to be an unreasonable man. That is why the NHL wanted him out of the room.
You're wrong if you are coming to that conclusion. You do realize that Donald Fehr works for the players, and does not have autonomy nor does he have the players proxy.

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12-05-2012, 05:30 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
There was a bunch of news articles that people woke up to this morning reporting how things went lastnight... there's been little released about today's progress, so there's little for many to be posting on.

As for a deal getting done today vs 80 days ago... neither side had any real pressure to make concessions (or to lessen their demands). 6 weeks of no paycheques, and the league potentially seeing drops in advertising revenue puts more pressure on the groups to move off their positions to get a deal done.

So as much as I dislike the fact that the NHLPA's only real strategy was to delay things as much as possible, there was no real pressure until recently to actually get a deal done.
Yea, stuff like the talk about getting a 60 whatever game season in as it pertains to the sponsorship, and maybe it was just a change of faces in the room, plus whatever else-I can see that. Have to see what comes out if it all.

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12-05-2012, 05:31 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Maybe the NHL is talking the time to, you know, actually read the PA's proposal.
Ernie, Ernie, Ernie... We already know you're squarely on the players side in this fight.

So are you suggesting the NHL didn't review the previous proposals before turning them down?

If not, just what are you suggesting?

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12-05-2012, 05:34 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Maybe the NHL is talking the time to, you know, actually read the PA's proposal.
The word actually is that NHLPA tabled a proposal and NHL met internally and came back and countered on key issues.

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12-05-2012, 05:35 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
They aren't going to get much sympathy. Poor guys averaging $2.5 Million a year... They should be able to pay the mortgage and have enough left over for groceries.
What does that have to do with anything. Seems many posters are more troubled by the ammount of what the players make, when that is what their jobs yeild. Personal opinions aside, if your job held the value of you making 2 million a year, should you be berated for that due to the ammount of money that is, or, is it a situation whereas that is what your value/worth is.

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12-05-2012, 05:35 PM
  #706
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The negotiations are likely slowing down now because Donald Fehr has to show that he is in charge of the players. Can't come to an agreement too quickly.

If there is a deal made in the next couple of days - and it really pains me to say this - Bettman will come out of this looking like a friggin' genius for pushing Fehr aside for just long enough for some common ground to be found.

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12-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #707
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Its so hard not to get get even a bit optimistic during these meatings but as we've seen so far every time we think there making progress something goes wrong

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12-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
Ernie, Ernie, Ernie... We already know you're squarely on the players side in this fight.

So are you suggesting the NHL didn't review the previous proposals before turning them down?

If not, just what are you suggesting?
I'm saying that it takes time to review a proposal and offer counterpoints. However, dismissing a proposal out of hand can be done in 10 minutes, apparently.

I'm on my own, self interested side. Which is to have hockey return and not have continual lockouts. If I'm anti-owner, it's because I dislike the fact that they have used lockouts as a strategy instead of a necessity, which, again, is not in my interest as a hockey fan.

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12-05-2012, 05:37 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
What does that have to do with anything. Seems many posters are more troubled by the ammount of what the players make, when that is what their jobs yeild. Personal opinions aside, if your job held the value of you making 2 million a year, should you be berated for that due to the ammount of money that is, or, is it a situation whereas that is what your value/worth is.
Hey New - not berating the players - just saying ... How can anyone in their right mind feel sorry for them if they have to take a bit of a haircut in the short term. By the way, the word you're looking for is "amount"...

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12-05-2012, 05:38 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
The negotiations are likely slowing down now because Donald Fehr has to show that he is in charge of the players. Can't come to an agreement too quickly.

If there is a deal made in the next couple of days - and it really pains me to say this - Bettman will come out of this looking like a friggin' genius for pushing Fehr aside for just long enough for some common ground to be found.
I think very few people wil care how it happened after a deal is reached.

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12-05-2012, 05:39 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
I'm saying that it takes time to review a proposal and offer counterpoints. However, dismissing a proposal out of hand can be done in 10 minutes, apparently.

I'm on my own, self interested side. Which is to have hockey return and not have continual lockouts. If I'm anti-owner, it's because I dislike the fact that they have used lockouts as a strategy instead of a necessity, which, again, is not in my interest as a hockey fan.
Fair enough. I'm pro-reality. Not on either side. But I do believe that in "real life" - employees by and large have to submit to employers. Life sucks - but that is the reality. Fair or not.

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12-05-2012, 05:39 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
The negotiations are likely slowing down now because Donald Fehr has to show that he is in charge of the players. Can't come to an agreement too quickly.

If there is a deal made in the next couple of days - and it really pains me to say this - Bettman will come out of this looking like a friggin' genius for pushing Fehr aside for just long enough for some common ground to be found.
Why do people keep saying this. Fehr works for the players, not the other way around. Seems to be some kind of made up falacy going on around here.

Bettman, has done something that very few in his line of work have done; been there for 20 years as the comish of the NHL. Everyone has a shelf life, including Bettman. There is no questioning his ability to grow the game of hockey, and there is no questioning his inabilty for prolonging labor peace. He won't be there much longer.

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12-05-2012, 05:42 PM
  #713
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
The negotiations are likely slowing down now because Donald Fehr has to show that he is in charge of the players. Can't come to an agreement too quickly.

If there is a deal made in the next couple of days - and it really pains me to say this - Bettman will come out of this looking like a friggin' genius for pushing Fehr aside for just long enough for some common ground to be found.
When this started I said Bettman would eat Donald Fehr's lunch.

All Donny has left is to try to look like he approves.

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12-05-2012, 05:47 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
When this started I said Bettman would eat Donald Fehr's lunch.

All Donny has left is to try to look like he approves.
When this stated I said that the owners would eventually get their way. They will not settle this until they do.

Whether or not this is in the next few days or next summer - that is the reality.

The players would be well advised to compromise. And yes, workers always have to compromise more than management. Such is life.

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12-05-2012, 05:50 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
Hey New - not berating the players - just saying ... How can anyone in their right mind feel sorry for them if they have to take a bit of a haircut in the short term. By the way, the word you're looking for is "amount"...
Why should they take a haircut; is it because it is too much money for some to fathom in their own lives? It's about principle. The league had grown, NHLers are deemed partners, yet the foundation and structured system for the NHL, designed by and insisted by the owners, is flawed, so the players have to take the cut? I don't begurdge anyone for how much they make, it thats their worth, then by all means.

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12-05-2012, 05:52 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
When this started I said Bettman would eat Donald Fehr's lunch.

All Donny has left is to try to look like he approves.
It's amazing isn't it.

Maybe Donny has something in his bag of tricks left.

Break out the popcorn ?

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12-05-2012, 05:53 PM
  #717
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Why should they take a haircut; is it because it is too much money for some to fathom in their own lives? It's about principle. The league had grown, NHLers are deemed partners, yet the foundation and structured system for the NHL, designed by and insisted by the owners, is flawed, so the players have to take the cut? I don't begurdge anyone for how much they make, it thats their worth, then by all means.
They don't have too....But they will.

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12-05-2012, 06:00 PM
  #718
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
Fair enough. I'm pro-reality. Not on either side. But I do believe that in "real life" - employees by and large have to submit to employers. Life sucks - but that is the reality. Fair or not.
I disagree with that version of reality.

Employees have the right to find greener pastures if they aren't getting the best deal they can with their current employer.

The CBA restricts NHL players ability to do so. So they are left to negotiate the best CBA they can.

But also, as someone who is self employed, I take exception to your overall outlook. Maybe that applies in some ways to unskilled workers, but talented people are generally pursued by employers, not the other way around.

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12-05-2012, 06:03 PM
  #719
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
The negotiations are likely slowing down now because Donald Fehr has to show that he is in charge of the players. Can't come to an agreement too quickly.

If there is a deal made in the next couple of days - and it really pains me to say this - Bettman will come out of this looking like a friggin' genius for pushing Fehr aside for just long enough for some common ground to be found.
How on earth is Fehr pushed aside if his brother is still there? Or did Bettman cause a rift between the two?

My read on the situation is the opposite to what seems to go for conventional wisdom around here. Bettman had to leave the negotiations, so he proposed that Donald Fehr also remove himself in order to save face.

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12-05-2012, 06:03 PM
  #720
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Why should they take a haircut; is it because it is too much money for some to fathom in their own lives? It's about principle. The league had grown, NHLers are deemed partners, yet the foundation and structured system for the NHL, designed by and insisted by the owners, is flawed, so the players have to take the cut?
They'll have to take a haircut because the NHL as a whole isn't profitable enough now to justify not missing games to get what they're looking for. If the NHL was pocketing 2-3 times the profit (so 500-750m in profit), then the players would have more leverage than they do currently. However until the majority of the NHL teams are making enough that the prospect of missing games scares the **** out of them, they will continue to have more leverage than the players. And as long as they have that leverage, they can demand (and will eventually receive) concessions from the players. It's just a matter of how long they're prepared to wait to get those concessions. This CBA (assuming it's somewhere in the middle of the last PA and NHL proposal) will put the league in a better place than the last CBA, and will give the players slightly more leverage next time around than they had this time around. Eventually it will get to a 50/50 spot (or very close) where neither side stands to really gain anything by missing games.

And on a side note, I could care less how much the players make individually. Yes it's a lot of money to the average person, however their skill level is off the charts, and they, as a part of a product bring in some major revenues. So I'm fine with them being well compensated.

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12-05-2012, 06:08 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
How on earth is Fehr pushed aside if his brother is still there? Or did Bettman cause a rift between the two?

My read on the situation is the opposite to what seems to go for conventional wisdom around here. Bettman had to leave the negotiations, so he proposed that Donald Fehr also remove himself in order to save face.
Steve Fehr is actually a decent man. I doubt he would dominate the discussion like Donald does.

Bettman asking for Donald to leave was no doubt an Owner's request.

The Owners don't want to have to filter their message through Donald to the players.

It's a negotiation ploy. Bettman by removing himself and asking Donald to as well ,effectively removed the NHLPA strongest person.

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12-05-2012, 06:08 PM
  #722
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
I disagree with that version of reality.

Employees have the right to find greener pastures if they aren't getting the best deal they can with their current employer.

But also, as someone who is self employed, I take exception to your overall outlook. Maybe that applies in some ways to unskilled workers, but talented people are generally pursued by employers, not the other way around.
They do, however when their current employer has (by far) the highest wages on the market (much like mine), they have the ability to push around their employee's to an extent.

So yes, NHL players can say FU to Bettman and the NHL and go play elsewhere... but it's not like a regular employee in the US. There's very few high paying hockey jobs available, and the NHL has the highest wage by far.

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12-05-2012, 06:08 PM
  #723
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So wait, in your version of the world, the league should see 15% - 25% profit margins every year?

Damn.. I'd like to be in a business that would guarantee me those kind of profits.

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12-05-2012, 06:09 PM
  #724
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Poorly managed teams shouldn't be profitable.

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12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
  #725
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Poorly managed teams shouldn't be profitable.
The NFL has plenty of poorly managed teams.

Jacksonville has ZERO fans(not literal but you get the point). But they turn tons of profit.

If you don't have all 30 teams making money.. No one wants to invest in your league.

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