HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Lockout II - Moderated: Talk about your plenty, Talk about your ills...

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-05-2012, 06:13 PM
  #726
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
They do, however when their current employer has (by far) the highest wages on the market (much like mine), they have the ability to push around their employee's to an extent.

So yes, NHL players can say FU to Bettman and the NHL and go play elsewhere... but it's not like a regular employee in the US. There's very few high paying hockey jobs available, and the NHL has the highest wage by far.
But the NHL is not a singular employer.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:14 PM
  #727
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
So wait, in your version of the world, the league should see 15% - 25% profit margins every year?
I didn't say they should see that. I simply said that until teams have substantially more to lose than they have today, that the NHL will continue to have more leverage than the players.

Although I do think that the league should be setup in a manor that every team has the chance at breaking even or posting a profit if it's well run. And that it's not dependent on it going deep (2nd/3rd round) into the playoffs regularly to do so.

__________________
"Itís not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, itís as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
Riptide is online now  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:18 PM
  #728
burf
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The NFL has plenty of poorly managed teams.

Jacksonville has ZERO fans(not literal but you get the point). But they turn tons of profit.

If you don't have all 30 teams making money.. No one wants to invest in your league.
Uh, that's blatantly false. Simply look at the NHL/NBA/MLS - many of the teams don't make money, and any time a franchise goes up for sale there's people lining up to buy it.

burf is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:19 PM
  #729
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
But the NHL is not a singular employer.
Yes and no. It as a league pays the highest average wage in the hockey world. Which was where I was going with that (how the NHL holds leverage over the players).

Riptide is online now  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #730
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by burf View Post
Uh, that's blatantly false. Simply look at the NHL/NBA/MLS - a lot of the teams are on the bubble of profitability, but people line up to buy clubs when they go up for sale.
It took the league how long to found a guy that can barely afford to buy the Yotes ?

The Yotes sold for peanuts. the NHL even took some of the losses on the chin.

No really successful rich person, wanted to buy that team.

MLS is one of the fastest growing leagues in the U.S

All 30 teams in the NBA clear a profit.

None of those leagues are in trouble. But it's in the leagues best intrest to keep all team profitable to attract serious sponsors and owners.

damacles1156 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:24 PM
  #731
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,089
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post

All 30 teams in the NBA clear a profit.

None of those leagues are in trouble. But it's in the leagues best intrest to keep all team profitable to attract serious sponsors and owners.
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...l-this-season/

During their lockout last year, the NBA revealed that 22 of 30 teams are losing money.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:25 PM
  #732
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Yes and no. It as a league pays the highest average wage in the hockey world. Which was where I was going with that (how the NHL holds leverage over the players).
But the players give over their rights to a fluid employment market (and these ARE rights) to have the other benefits that a CBA brings them.

Which means the leverage goes in both directions.

To me, the greatest difference is that the owners can afford to absorb short term pain to see long term gains, whereas the players, due to their relatively short careers, don't have that ability. The sacrifices they make will largely benefit the players who come after them.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:25 PM
  #733
Fordy
the kid signify
 
Fordy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 13,230
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
It took the league how long to found a guy that can barely afford to buy the Yotes ?

The Yotes sold for peanuts. the NHL even took some of the losses on the chin.

No really successful rich person, wanted to buy that team.

MLS is one of the fastest growing leagues in the U.S

All 30 teams in the NBA clear a profit.

None of those leagues are in trouble. But it's in the leagues best intrest to keep all team profitable to attract serious sponsors and owners.
That doesn't even make sense, if you knew anything about the NBA.

Fordy is online now  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:26 PM
  #734
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
It took the league how long to found a guy that can barely afford to buy the Yotes ?

The Yotes sold for peanuts. the NHL even took some of the losses on the chin.

No really successful rich person, wanted to buy that team.
I was under the impression that the NHL broke even with the Yotes (they bought it for 120m, and it sold for 160m)?

If the NHL would have allowed the new owner to move that team to any location in NA, they could have sold it overnight at 2-4 times the purchase price to anyone of a dozen potential buyers. The issue there was they wanted to keep the team in Glendale. And it's not like there wasn't interest. Multiple owners attempted to work out a new lease (which had the CoG paying them big bucks) to keep the team there.

Riptide is online now  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:27 PM
  #735
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
I didn't say they should see that. I simply said that until teams have substantially more to lose than they have today, that the NHL will continue to have more leverage than the players.

Although I do think that the league should be setup in a manor that every team has the chance at breaking even or posting a profit if it's well run. And that it's not dependent on it going deep (2nd/3rd round) into the playoffs regularly to do so.
Yes, but you don't need 23% profit margins to achieve that. You need revenue sharing, plain and simple.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:29 PM
  #736
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plan The Parade View Post
http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...l-this-season/

During their lockout last year, the NBA revealed that 22 of 30 teams are losing money.
The NBA players invoked their right of 3rd party audits. The owners quickly pulled back that claim.

I wonder why

damacles1156 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:30 PM
  #737
SJeasy
Registered User
 
SJeasy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: San Jose
Country: United States
Posts: 12,282
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
Poorly managed teams shouldn't be profitable.
So Toronto should give all its profits to rev sharing? Not a good starting point.

Fugu,
I see the playbook as coming out of one school of thought that comes out of US law schools regarding negotiating. It is based on a premise of win/lose and it is very much a scorched earth tactic. I see both Fehr and Bettman (PR) as belonging to this school. The other school of thought is mediation/arbitration which strives for win/win (most often seen in family law). I don't think either side approached the negotiation with an eye to this.

If Fehr listened to his constituency, he would have seen that escrow was a sore point. Why not a proposal that would eliminate escrow altogether? Address escrow through the subsequent year's cap. IMO, this is the issue with the "Make Whole" dance. If he wants to end the series of lockouts, why not propose a guarantee of leaguewide profits at a fixed percentage level with the giveback from the league in terms of opening the books and controlling non-payroll expenses? Penalize the league for folding or bankrupting teams.

For Bettman, his system is flawed to the point where he will continually be looking for clawbacks as there is a disparity in markets. He should have been looking to remove the escalator. He should have looked to fix the ranging system, turning it to a percentage and a more reasonable mid-point that wouldn't be influenced by outliers. He needed to fix BDCs and probably cap term for insurance purposes.

SJeasy is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:31 PM
  #738
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
So basically, we find out tonight whether the NHL has a chance at a season or not. Fun stuff.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:31 PM
  #739
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country:
Posts: 29,173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
SI_NHL 3:23pm via SI.com NHL still faces obstacles to CBA deal on.si.com/YBRGIP via @SI_sarahkwak

The hardliners won't go down easily.

Fugu is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:31 PM
  #740
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Yes, but you don't need 23% profit margins to achieve that. You need revenue sharing, plain and simple.
There are no Yankee's/REdsox in the NHL.

There is no 7 billion dollar a year T.V deal, like in the NFL.

The NHL does not have the luxury of Toronto and MTL subsidizing the league.

damacles1156 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:32 PM
  #741
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,444
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Yes, but you don't need 23% profit margins to achieve that. You need revenue sharing, plain and simple.
Except the profit margin still needs to be there for the teams to have any profit to share. It's completely unreasonable to expect the NHL to share 50% of the profits to allow everyone to break eve. There were ~250m in profits, ~120m in losses - if we put any faith in Forbes numbers, or roughly what one (unnamed) NHL person said (that the league lost 240m over 2 years - so ~120m per year).

I would love to see RS get completely revamped to the point where there's a meaningful system in place (say on par with what the NBA or NFL does). However the profits still have to be there in the first place. Today under the old CBA that wasn't the case.

Riptide is online now  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:32 PM
  #742
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country:
Posts: 29,173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
So basically, we find out tonight whether the NHL has a chance at a season or not. Fun stuff.

I hope everyone put on their rollercoaster gear.

Also-- if this initiative fails, I hope the posters just log off and take the night off, for our moderators' sakes.

Fugu is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:33 PM
  #743
Powdered Toast Man
Is he a ham?
 
Powdered Toast Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,561
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The NBA players invoked their right of 3rd party audits. The owners quickly pulled back that claim.

I wonder why
...because they were lying about not being profitable so they could take money from the players and become more profitable?

Powdered Toast Man is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:38 PM
  #744
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Except the profit margin still needs to be there for the teams to have any profit to share. It's completely unreasonable to expect the NHL to share 50% of the profits to allow everyone to break eve. There were ~250m in profits, ~120m in losses - if we put any faith in Forbes numbers, or roughly what one (unnamed) NHL person said (that the league lost 240m over 2 years - so ~120m per year).

I would love to see RS get completely revamped to the point where there's a meaningful system in place (say on par with what the NBA or NFL does). However the profits still have to be there in the first place. Today under the old CBA that wasn't the case.
Spot on.

Also people need to understand that the NHL cannot have a RS plan like the NFL.

The NFL gets an astronomical amount of money for the T.V. deal.

It's apples to oranges.

The NFL pay's EACH team YEARLY 110 million dollars in T.V. revenue. That's each year.

The NHL gives 6 million....That's because the T.V. is not the NFL's deal.

damacles1156 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:44 PM
  #745
Boltsfan2029
Registered User
 
Boltsfan2029's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In deleted threads
Country: United States
Posts: 6,281
vCash: 698
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
You don't think the PA had a date circled on their calendar too as to when the BOG might be most amenable to an agreement? I think everyone involved knew the structure of those sponsorship agreements and what real money would be lost (to both sides).
So the PA had a date circled and their plan was to lose a couple of months of salary as part of their strategy? That's an... interesting tactic!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Along with that:
NHL lockout optimism overblown

http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/nhlblo...#axzz2ED5xEtD7
When this ever gets settled, I'll think of you and wonder if you're happy or sad about it. I almost think you'll be disappointed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by schabadoo View Post
Yep, that mean old Donald Fehr trying to steamroll another group of players.

Maybe the owners can figure out a plan they actual want this time, so we don't go through this again in a few years.
Here's an idea - maybe the mean old owners and the wonderfully perfect players/union can get together and work out a deal together that will benefit both sides and then there will be no reason for a lockout again. This shouldn't fall squarely on the owners. That's why they have a CBA and labor negotiations. Both parties need to make the deal, both parties need to recognize and correct errors in the old deal, and both sides need to work together to keep the league in the best shape possible. There should be no us v. them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingbobert View Post
so if the owners and players make a deal, do they fire bettman and fehr on the spot for failing to do what they could?
No, because the league and the union realize they got to the point where things could be finalized by the negotiations (good/bad/whatever) between Bettman and Fehr. They didn't start from scratch in yesterday's meeting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Employees have the right to find greener pastures if they aren't getting the best deal they can with their current employer.

The CBA restricts NHL players ability to do so. So they are left to negotiate the best CBA they can.
Anyone entering a profession in which union membership is required is aware of these conditions before signing on the dotted line. And NHL players can find greener pastures when their contracts expire. The difference is there aren't any greener pastures out there and they know it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by damacles1156 View Post
The Owners don't want to have to filter their message through Donald to the players.
I can't disagree with this. I don't think the owners believe that Mr. Fehr was giving the rank and file the true or complete picture. I believe that's part of what the meetings over the last two days have been about - to ensure that their message is getting through in its entirety.

Boltsfan2029 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:45 PM
  #746
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Except the profit margin still needs to be there for the teams to have any profit to share. It's completely unreasonable to expect the NHL to share 50% of the profits to allow everyone to break eve. There were ~250m in profits, ~120m in losses - if we put any faith in Forbes numbers, or roughly what one (unnamed) NHL person said (that the league lost 240m over 2 years - so ~120m per year).

I would love to see RS get completely revamped to the point where there's a meaningful system in place (say on par with what the NBA or NFL does). However the profits still have to be there in the first place. Today under the old CBA that wasn't the case.
Well, we don't know what the overall numbers are, and don't even know how to assign them them to league profits etc.

But it seems entirely unreasonable for a sector to have profits of that size.

My solution for ending this has been the same from the beginning:
1. Overall profits at around 10%,
2. Revenue sharing and greater salary cap flexibility to give everyone a chance to make money.
3. Remove the loopholes that teams have used to have a payroll below the cap and above it.

As for anyone who says I'm pro-owner, I've actually agreed with a 5 or 7 year contract term limit. If you can't buy insurance for it, it shouldn't be allowed. And you shouldn't lose a player because another manager is acting irresponsibly. Especially when, if the contract ends up going bad, the team that lost the player will likely end up paying revenue sharing to the team that acted stupidly.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:47 PM
  #747
Cawz
Registered User
 
Cawz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Oiler fan in Calgary
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,776
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
Poorly managed teams shouldn't be profitable.
Do you think players who dont produce shouldnt be paid as well?

Cawz is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:50 PM
  #748
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cawz View Post
Do you think players who dont produce shouldnt be paid as well?
Should players who outperform their contract receive higher compensation?

What we have here is a false equivalency.

Ernie is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:51 PM
  #749
damacles1156
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 12,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Should players who outperform their contract receive higher compensation?

What we have here is a false equivalency.
Don't players have built in bonuses ? I know ELC do.

damacles1156 is offline  
Old
12-05-2012, 06:53 PM
  #750
Ernie
Registered User
 
Ernie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,029
vCash: 500
At least the yokels from the regular NHL forum are no longer amongst us.

But I think that the real time to be concerned will be if the governors leave New York without the framework of a deal in place.

Ernie is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.