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v.23: The Return of Kyle Lowry

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12-09-2012, 10:19 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by JMcLeaf View Post
Not a high 1st in a strong draft, but he is worth a pick somewhere in the first round (where in the 1st round depends on how deep it the draft is). This years draft is looking weak so it wouldn't be a bad year to lose our pick. Next years draft is suppose to have several highly rated small forwards so I'm hoping we have our pick.
Like someone posted earlier in this thread, there appears to be no franchise type talent in this draft, but just a lot of solid options. The #5 could be better than the #1 pick. Unlike the last few years, where there was a clear #1 (Davis, Kyrie, Wall, etc). But yeah, OKC with Noel and Ibaka would be an insane front court defensively...they wouldn't even need him to score that much on the other end, just finish around the rim.

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12-10-2012, 12:28 AM
  #427
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This sucks that the raptors are so bad this year, i'm a bandwagon fan and wanted to follow them closely this year with the lockout and I really wanted to watch this season... but with them 4-17 i have no interest at all. Can one of the regulars explain to me what the next step is? Trade Bargs? Is the pick we traded for Lowry protected? Is there any chance we can compete in the near future or are we screwed completely? I no BC was highly thought of when we brought him in... but should be be fired? They seem in worse shape then the leafs is that the case?

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12-10-2012, 12:37 AM
  #428
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This sucks that the raptors are so bad this year, i'm a bandwagon fan and wanted to follow them closely this year with the lockout and I really wanted to watch this season... but with them 4-17 i have no interest at all. Can one of the regulars explain to me what the next step is? Trade Bargs? Is the pick we traded for Lowry protected? Is there any chance we can compete in the near future or are we screwed completely? I no BC was highly thought of when we brought him in... but should be be fired? They seem in worse shape then the leafs is that the case?
Yes it's too bad that the Raptors are in this current funk. I don't see them coming out. There seems to be something going on in the locker room or behind the scenes cause it's very puzzling why a team that was slated to be a potential fringe PO team is now the 2nd worst team in the NBA.

The way it stands now and I'll be blunt for you seeing as you are a casual fan the Raptors are not going to go anywhere with Bryan Colangelo as GM and Andrea Bargnani as our "franchise" player. BC has worn out his welcome and has had more than enough time to build something resembling a coherent basketball team.



When you have a revolving door of players, coaches, bad draft picks, failed tanks, failed winning seasons, 1 playoff appearance, and so many overpaid players the team has to be dismantled from the top down.

The pick for Lowry is Top 3 protected this season. If we lose the pick it goes to OKC who received it for the James Harden trade with Houston. If we finish in the top 3 then it's top 2 protected in 2014 and 2015 it's top 1 protect. In 2016 OKC gets the pick no matter what. It's better if the Raptors just give up the pick this season as this is supposedly a weak draft and won't really benefit OKC. The draft next year has potential superstar Andrew Wiggins in it, but even if we did get the 1st overall pick BC would probably screw that up too and draft a soft Euro white guy who is allergic to rebounding and defense.

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12-10-2012, 12:40 AM
  #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
This sucks that the raptors are so bad this year, i'm a bandwagon fan and wanted to follow them closely this year with the lockout and I really wanted to watch this season... but with them 4-17 i have no interest at all. Can one of the regulars explain to me what the next step is? Trade Bargs? Is the pick we traded for Lowry protected? Is there any chance we can compete in the near future or are we screwed completely? I no BC was highly thought of when we brought him in... but should be be fired? They seem in worse shape then the leafs is that the case?
There are, of course, wildly varying answers to all of these questions.

It'd be tough to find a fan right now that doesn't think BC is hanging onto his job by a thread. Most want him gone. I think they'll wait till the raps get back home and see how they do for a game or two. If they lose two of their next three, I imagine someone's head will roll.

BC apparently has a big hard-on for Bargs, so it's tough to imagine him making the trade, but it could happen. If a new GM comes in, I imagine it's one of the first things he tries to do. Barg has just fallen so far out of favour in this terrible season. All he's really supposed to do is score, and he's been very inconsistent with that this year, which has only served to highlight all of his on-court weaknesses.

The Lowry pick is protected (top 3 this year, then I believe top 2 and top one for the following years).

Regarding the outlook of the team, I think there's still reason to be optimistic. They have plenty of legitimate excuses right now: There's lots of new faces, their starting centre is a rookie, they've dealt with a couple minor injuries, they've had a brutally difficult schedule, and they've lost a whole lot of close games. Coach Casey has also come under fire for some pretty horrible substitutions.

The second half of the season has a whole lot of home games, and momentum could swing, but they have a biiiiiggg hole to dig themselves out of.





I have a question for the even closer followers of the NBA - How in love are Tristan Thompson and the Cleveland Cavaliers? I assume he's a big core piece for them moving forward, but with all the talk of focusing on Wiggins in the 2014 Draft, I'd be interested to know just how insane the price tag would be for Thompson.

Edit: Just found this thread on RealGM, apparentely cleveland's not nearly in love with Thompson as I thought: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...ea0d8ccbe04cc9 Bargnani and Davis (and/or Ross) for Varajeo and Thompson? If only...


Last edited by socratic: 12-10-2012 at 01:06 AM.
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12-10-2012, 12:47 AM
  #430
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Read the thread more man. A guy says they barely post him up, they don't run him plays and he's without Kyrie. When you lose a playmaker as dynamic as Kyrie, your whole team suffers. Would love him on the Raps though.

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12-10-2012, 02:21 AM
  #431
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Meh I think Thompson is nothing more than an energy big. Not 4th overall worthy at all by the Cavs.

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12-10-2012, 02:22 AM
  #432
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Meh I think Thompson is nothing more than an energy big. Not 4th overall worthy at all by the Cavs.
Nope. But it'd be nice to dump Bargs contract on them for him.. I can only dream though.

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12-10-2012, 02:32 AM
  #433
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We need to tear this **** down, and that starts at the top with papa Colangelo. Get rid of Colangelo, Bargs, Jose and Fields if anyone wants him, and do a proper rebuild.

As for the OKC pick, if we can suck this hard this year with the above mentioned ass clowns, we should be able continue sucking. Or, we could get much better defensively, and finish somewhere around 4-8.

I remember the days when Barnani was compared to Dirk

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12-10-2012, 06:23 AM
  #434
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
We need to tear this **** down, and that starts at the top with papa Colangelo.
It has to be done... absolutely. It's time to FIRE BC asap. This team is a mess and the players have given up.

Btw, You can sense the frustration in Jack Armstrong's TSN blog.

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12-10-2012, 06:23 AM
  #435
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Fire BC
Trade Bargs/Caldy
Start playing ED/JV more.
Get a primetime player at the draft in 2013 at all costs.

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12-10-2012, 08:02 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Sallo View Post
Fire BC
Trade Bargs/Caldy
Start playing ED/JV more.
Get a primetime player at the draft in 2013 at all costs.
This

Until this happens.... KEEP LOSING.

What a garbage organization tho. BC is an absolute disgrace

Play the kids. Davis, Ross, etc

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12-10-2012, 09:15 AM
  #437
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Originally Posted by socratic View Post
I have a question for the even closer followers of the NBA - How in love are Tristan Thompson and the Cleveland Cavaliers? I assume he's a big core piece for them moving forward, but with all the talk of focusing on Wiggins in the 2014 Draft, I'd be interested to know just how insane the price tag would be for Thompson.

Edit: Just found this thread on RealGM, apparentely cleveland's not nearly in love with Thompson as I thought: http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...ea0d8ccbe04cc9 Bargnani and Davis (and/or Ross) for Varajeo and Thompson? If only...
Yea, Cavaliers are pretty "meh" on Thompson. As other people have said, he's more of a role player coming off the bench....think Amir Johnson-esque. Thompson doesn't project to develop much of an offensive game, and he'll likely be slated as a defensive/rebounding big-man. I think Ed Davis has more upside, to be honest. If you're looking at Canadian big-men, I think Nicholson has a brighter future.


As for the trade you proposed, Varejao is definitely not coming here. Varejao is having an incredible all-star worthy season. It's incredibly likely that he gets traded, but he's going to get traded to a contending team that needs a center. Cleveland is likely to get a 1st and a good young player...more than what we could offer. Before this year, Varejao would have been considered a salary dump....but this year he is one of the marquee trade pieces out there.

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12-10-2012, 09:40 AM
  #438
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Colangelo talks about how the results are unacceptable and embarrassing. The moves he has made as GM are unacceptable. GTFO Colangelo!!

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12-10-2012, 09:51 AM
  #439
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
We need to tear this **** down, and that starts at the top with papa Colangelo. Get rid of Colangelo, Bargs, Jose and Fields if anyone wants him, and do a proper rebuild.

As for the OKC pick, if we can suck this hard this year with the above mentioned ass clowns, we should be able continue sucking. Or, we could get much better defensively, and finish somewhere around 4-8.

I remember the days when Barnani was compared to Dirk
Yeah since it's top 3 protected this year I'm hoping we can continue to suck or somehow go on a huge run and make the playoffs which I doubt will happen. What I want is them to finish in the bottom 1-3 draft a stud, next year tank again get #1-2 pick get Wiggins and then OKC can have the pick in 2015. I hope this isn't one of those typical Leaf years where we're in a good spot to get a good pick and then they go on a good stretch winning 8 out of 10. This franchise needs to bottom out, cleanse itself of Colangelo and the dead weight on this team i.e(Bargnani) and start over.

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12-10-2012, 09:55 AM
  #440
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Yea, Cavaliers are pretty "meh" on Thompson. As other people have said, he's more of a role player coming off the bench....think Amir Johnson-esque. Thompson doesn't project to develop much of an offensive game, and he'll likely be slated as a defensive/rebounding big-man. I think Ed Davis has more upside, to be honest. If you're looking at Canadian big-men, I think Nicholson has a brighter future.


As for the trade you proposed, Varejao is definitely not coming here. Varejao is having an incredible all-star worthy season. It's incredibly likely that he gets traded, but he's going to get traded to a contending team that needs a center. Cleveland is likely to get a 1st and a good young player...more than what we could offer. Before this year, Varejao would have been considered a salary dump....but this year he is one of the marquee trade pieces out there.
I'd go after Thompson just for his rebounding. This team needs rebounders in the worst way. Other than Valanciunas and Amir no one on this team rebounds well. Another thing that bugs me with Bargnani and I know it's happened throughout his career, but when he dribbles and drives to the basket his head is down. Can our coaches not teach him to keep his head up and watch the play happening? He always makes up his mind and goes straight for the basket with his head down not even knowing how the play is progressing. He looks so awkward.

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12-10-2012, 09:58 AM
  #441
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Ed Davis rebounds well.

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12-10-2012, 10:41 AM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Stats01 View Post
Yeah since it's top 3 protected this year I'm hoping we can continue to suck or somehow go on a huge run and make the playoffs which I doubt will happen. What I want is them to finish in the bottom 1-3 draft a stud, next year tank again get #1-2 pick get Wiggins and then OKC can have the pick in 2015. I hope this isn't one of those typical Leaf years where we're in a good spot to get a good pick and then they go on a good stretch winning 8 out of 10. This franchise needs to bottom out, cleanse itself of Colangelo and the dead weight on this team i.e(Bargnani) and start over.
Our schedule is considerably easier for the last 2/3's of the season than the first 1/3, so it's likely that we at least start accumulating some wins.

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12-10-2012, 10:43 AM
  #443
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Yea, Thompson wouldn't bring anything to our team that Ed Davis can't provide. Furthermore, Davis can contribute more offensively. Aside from the "he's Canadian" aspect, Thompson really isn't needed on this team.

If we dumped Bargnani and put Davis into the starting role, Thompson could slide into the roster as a PF off the bench (giving us Val, Davis, Johnson, and Thompson as our big-men). But even in that scenario, Thompson would be the the fourth big-man on the depth chart, and likely the 3rd at PF (I imagine Johnson would get minutes over Thompson). Overall, Thompson isn't necessary.

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12-10-2012, 10:46 AM
  #444
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Yeah since it's top 3 protected this year I'm hoping we can continue to suck or somehow go on a huge run and make the playoffs which I doubt will happen. What I want is them to finish in the bottom 1-3 draft a stud, next year tank again get #1-2 pick get Wiggins and then OKC can have the pick in 2015. I hope this isn't one of those typical Leaf years where we're in a good spot to get a good pick and then they go on a good stretch winning 8 out of 10. This franchise needs to bottom out, cleanse itself of Colangelo and the dead weight on this team i.e(Bargnani) and start over.
I'd like for that to happen too, but the chances are slim IMO. With our luck we will get the 3rd pick and get a guy at a position that we don't really need that won't have a huge impact in the NBA, and then next yr our pick will be 3rd again so okc will get it and we'll miss out on one of the several good small forwards lol.

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12-10-2012, 10:58 AM
  #445
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I know Danny Granger is hurt and all but wouldn't a deal of Bargnani for Granger work for both sides.

Granger is hurt but when healthy is that SF we need.

Some other players the Raptors could look into are:

Derek Williams - Hasn't really taken off in Minnesota. Is a high pick and could break out with a change of scenery.

Tiago Splitter - Young with potential. San Antonio is more often than not a great fit for other team's rejects. Bargnani will flourish there, I know it.

Derrick Favours - Utah is also a good place for other team's rejects.

Thomas Robinson - I don't know why I mentioned him. He's one of my favorite prospects from last draft.

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12-10-2012, 10:59 AM
  #446
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What type of return of picks and prospects could we expect to get for Bargnani and Calderon at the deadline?

We have some good young pieces in Ross, DD, JV, Davis, and Lowry; this team has potential to be a good team in 2 or 3 years if we are patient. There is zero chance of us making the playoffs this year however, and its only December.

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12-10-2012, 11:00 AM
  #447
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Question for the basketball lovers here. I follow the game but not with the zeal of some.

I was wondering about the draft and with it being 2 rounds and 60 players selected how come there is not tons of undrafted kids making it to the NBA and even becoming a star?

You see it it baseball/hockey and football where lower round picks become very good players or stars.

Are there really only say 15 good players each year in college, overseas or is it just a lack of scouting.

You would think with the amount of kids playing basketball there would be great a many undrafted players each year turn into good NBA players.

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12-10-2012, 11:22 AM
  #448
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Question for the basketball lovers here. I follow the game but not with the zeal of some.

I was wondering about the draft and with it being 2 rounds and 60 players selected how come there is not tons of undrafted kids making it to the NBA and even becoming a star?

You see it it baseball/hockey and football where lower round picks become very good players or stars.

Are there really only say 15 good players each year in college, overseas or is it just a lack of scouting.

You would think with the amount of kids playing basketball there would be great a many undrafted players each year turn into good NBA players.
Well, the LeBron James draft was the last one in which high school players can forego college and go straight to the NBA.

That changed the whole perception of the NBA draft. High Schoolers are not allowed to enter the draft directly but they have to go to college first.

As a result, the talent pool is comparatively weaker than it was when you had a choice between college players and highly regarded HS players.

I think it has had a significant impact with transition periods for teams. Before, it wouldn't necessarily take as long in a rebuild than it does now.

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12-10-2012, 11:27 AM
  #449
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We have some good young pieces in Ross, DD, JV, Davis, and Lowry; this team has potential to be a good team in 2 or 3 years if we are patient..
Biggest Problem: Team Defense.

That's why we suck.

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12-10-2012, 11:37 AM
  #450
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Question for the basketball lovers here. I follow the game but not with the zeal of some.

I was wondering about the draft and with it being 2 rounds and 60 players selected how come there is not tons of undrafted kids making it to the NBA and even becoming a star?

You see it it baseball/hockey and football where lower round picks become very good players or stars.

Are there really only say 15 good players each year in college, overseas or is it just a lack of scouting.

You would think with the amount of kids playing basketball there would be great a many undrafted players each year turn into good NBA players.
It's a good question, and there's lots of factors that contribute to it. Here are some things I can think of to explain it:

1) Players cannot play NCAA after they sign a contract, and the NBA D-league (similar to the AHL) is very, very rudimentary. This almost makes it risky for a college player to declare draft eligibility. On one hand, they get the chance to prove themselves at the NBA level. However, if they aren't good enough to get good minutes, they are basically forgotten about instantly. Staying in college is probably better for development than the D-league. Furthermore, the NCAA doesn't make it easy for players to make the decision. The end result of this is that only the best-of-the-best even attempt to make the jump to the pros.

2) The level of competition at the NBA level is much higher than the amateur levels. Similar to players that dominate at the OHL, it's far from a guarantee they can perform at the NBA level. It takes a very special kind of player in skill level and physical form.

3) Undrafted players are rarely signed because presumably it means they went through 4 years of NCAA and still haven't proven worthy. This is similar to when overage hockey players still play in the OHL...they aren't held in very high regard anymore at all. If they are lucky, they get signed to an AHL team. In basketball, the D-league is much less attractive then playing in China or in Europe, so that's where the undrafted players go if they want to keep playing. Once they are overseas, it's doubtful that they'll ever get a look by an NBA team again.

4) Similar to point 2, an NBA roster has FAR less players then both hockey and baseball. Basketball has only 12 players on the floor, and often only 8 of them see minutes in play. This obviously makes it much much harder to crack the lineup, and means you have much more competition to get that roster spot. Unlike Baseballs 25/40 man roster, and Hockey's 25, the NBA just doesn't have room for the more mediocre players.

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