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Old
12-02-2012, 05:44 PM
  #251
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It's over guys. You can't undo the Kessel trade. You either accept it and move on or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years.

Kessel is a superstar. I'm very happy with him.

Worrying about what could have been? Nah. I'm moving on with my life and I'm choosing to continue to cheer for the Leafs.

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12-02-2012, 05:55 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Let's just clarify:

Burke did not trade Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for Kessel.

Burke traded 3 draft picks for Kessel.

Huge difference.
It's amazing how many people don't grasp this simple fact.

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12-02-2012, 05:55 PM
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
It's over guys. You can't undo the Kessel trade. You either accept it and move on or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years.

Kessel is a superstar. I'm very happy with him.

Worrying about what could have been? Nah. I'm moving on with my life and I'm choosing to continue to cheer for the Leafs.
Bingo.

It's not like the deal is anything close to the Rask for Raycroft deal. OR the Steen and Coli for Stempniak deal. Or the picks for Toskala and Bell deal.

Rediculous when people say it's one of the worst trades in Leafs history. It isn't top three in the last 8 years.

Don't make me have to revisit the Ballard years!

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12-02-2012, 05:59 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by Volcanologist View Post
It's amazing how many people don't grasp this simple fact.
I am beginning to believe they don't want to accept it. Ignoring the truth comes in handy when all you want to do is belittle someone else.

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12-02-2012, 05:59 PM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Huh? You didn't even address my point. You just brought up Seguin and the "Trade" as a lazy argument.

I was pointing out how Kessel has played with success in a more defensive system. The point was being made it seems that Wilson's style helped Kessel score more.
I guess I will have to spoon feed you then.....my assertion was that Seguin a year younger played for the same defensive first coach and out produced Kessel and even lead the team in scoring.

And Wilson's system did help Kessel's point production, how could it not.

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12-02-2012, 06:06 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I guess I will have to spoon feed you then.....my assertion was that Seguin a year younger played for the same defensive first coach and out produced Kessel and even lead the team in scoring.

And Wilson's system did help Kessel's point production, how could it not.
Sorry I have been having some memory issues.

I just can't seem to remember when Seguin had to take time to battle testicular cancer.

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12-02-2012, 06:08 PM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
It's over guys. You can't undo the Kessel trade. You either accept it and move on or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years.

Kessel is a superstar. I'm very happy with him.

Worrying about what could have been? Nah. I'm moving on with my life and I'm choosing to continue to cheer for the Leafs.
I'm a Leaf fan and always have been. The fact we are discussing Burke is the reason why Keesel is brought into the discussion as it was a major error in judgment and as a our GM he owns that decision. That along with many other errors and failure to do as promised leads me to believe that Burke has failed in his tenure thus far as the GM.

That does not make me any less a fan then you!

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:11 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
I guess I will have to spoon feed you then.....my assertion was that Seguin a year younger played for the same defensive first coach and out produced Kessel and even lead the team in scoring.

And Wilson's system did help Kessel's point production, how could it not.
He had Tyler Bozak as his centre. That kills whatever advantage Wilson's system had on him.

My point was, Kessel was fine statistically under Julian.

And just to point out, Kessel's season was better at a PPG. pace. Kessel was on pace for 70 points that season. He missed a chunk of games with mono. So no, Seguin wasn't better.

And why was Seguin brought into this discussion anyways? You're obsessed.


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Old
12-02-2012, 06:15 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Let's just clarify:

Burke did not trade Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for Kessel.

Burke traded 3 draft picks for Kessel.

Huge difference.
Just for clarification.....trades are measured by the outcome and the players mentioned are the outcome of that trade.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #260
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Team comes damn near last 4 years in a row and Burke gets commended for improving the prospect pool...

Folks that should be a basic expectation and does not deserve lauding.

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12-02-2012, 06:18 PM
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Just for clarification.....trades are measured by the outcome and the players mentioned are the outcome of that trade.
Burke did not trade those players.

Burke traded draft picks. He was never in posession of those players. Therefore he could not have traded them.

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12-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
He had Tyler Bozak as his centre. That should have limited much more what he could have done.

My point was, Kessel was fine statistically under Julian.

And just to point out, Kessel's season was better at a PPG. pace. Kessel was on pace for 70 points that season. He missed a chunk of games with mono. So no, Seguin wasn't better.

And why was Seguin brought into this discussion anyways? You're obsessed.
The numbers work out almost the same......857 Kessel, Seguin .827

The real difference is the age of the players.....

lets compare apples to apples then..... 19 18 37 at the same age and NHL experience.

Look back I never brought Kessel nor Seguin into this debate....so calling me names will not change that.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:20 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
If Burke had signed Kessel to an offersheet there is no way in hell Chiarelli does the Kaberle deal.

You almost have to look at them together. You don't have to but I'll guarantee you that if Burke had pissed of Chiarelli by using an offersheet, Kabs would have went somewhere else for half the return.

And this isn't close to being one of the worst trades in history. As a Sittler fan you should know that.
Why does everyone overlook the highly likely possibility they would have matched ?

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:21 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by thecatch22 View Post
Team comes damn near last 4 years in a row and Burke gets commended for improving the prospect pool...

Folks that should be a basic expectation and does not deserve lauding.
Team was in a playoff position FEB 23rd. before the collapse.

That is a definite sign of improvement. When in the previous 4 years had the Leafs even been close to the playoffs that late in the season.

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:24 PM
  #265
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Why does everyone overlook the highly likely possibility they would have matched ?
Chiarelli is on record as saying the BRuins would match ANY offersheet made to Kessel.

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12-02-2012, 06:31 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by darrylsittler27 View Post
Burke is the GM of Toronto not Boston.His job was to get the best deal for us.If we had just signed Kessel the compensation would have been a first,a 2nd and a 3rd rounder.He paid more than he had to,is that loyalty to the fans? Secondly,the trade had no impact as we finished 2nd last.If we hadn't made that trade we may have just finished last but who knows? Thirdly,you don't build a cup team around a high flying winger.I have never seen this model. Fourthly, if we had kept the picks and not traded we would have inevitably had higher picks in 3 drafts.It is not that I don't like Kessel but he may walk away as a free agent soon.If he does,this will go down as one of the worst trades ever,in that it helped a rival and had no impact on us then or in the future.See 5th last.The trade had no impact on us,where as those picks(Seguin,Hamilton/Courturier) could easily land a number one center or turn into one.The center being the critical piece and not a winger.
The fact that Burke didnt leverage the offer sheet option served him well later, when he parlayed an average asset in Tomas Kaberle for a first, a former 16th overall in Joe Colborne, and a conditional 2nd. Bear in mind that the player had all the leverage, in that he was able to dictate where he would accept a trade to. He said Boston was his preferred destination, and a favourable deal was reached. Kaba has played for 3 teams since leaving Toronto, and has underwhelmed in every instance. We drafted Biggs at 22 with those picks. Biggs, Colborne for Kaba...not a bad haul. "loyalty to the fans" is secondary to ethical, amicable trade relations. Burke was prepared to go the offer sheet route as a last resort, and secured the Leafs' 2nd, which had been traded, in order to create necessary leverage. There's a reason offer sheets don't get tossed around more, and that is because once you do it, you send the message to not only one club, but an additional 28 clubs that predatory tactics aren't off-limits, and that is very much a two-edged sword.

When a 21-year old "high-flying winger" becomes attainable, you act. Is it a preferred way to initiate a retooling? No. Is it better than the alternative, being letting him get away? Hell yes. You dont re-tool, as was the mandate, by building around draft picks which either get ruined due to piss poor development, or sit in junior longer than they need to because your team sucks and you cant risk exposing them to your losing culture. Higher picks in three drafts on a team with no front line of talent means three more victims of Toronto's ineptitude...no thanks, I'd rather have highly skilled pieces with the mentality needed to survive and thrive in the biggest, most volatile market in the game.

Kessel isn't walking for free, and anyone spinning that yarn is nothing more than an alarmist. If he doesn't re-sign, I'm pretty sure Burke will make a favourable deal. Look what he got for Beauchemin...

Burke's approach was aggressive, and in-line with the mandate of becoming competitive sooner than later. Arguments to the contrary based on hindsight are meaningless. Despite the hiccups, what the Leafs now have is a solid hockey program trending in the right direction. One or two pieces could be all it takes to build something we haven't seen in decades: a deep organization capable of playing sustainable, competitive hockey.

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12-02-2012, 06:37 PM
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Team was in a playoff position FEB 23rd. before the collapse.

That is a definite sign of improvement. When in the previous 4 years had the Leafs even been close to the playoffs that late in the season.
I agree the team has more talent than it did before. I am just perplexed at Burke getting praise for increasing the prospect pool since 2008.

Regardless of the Kessel trade, he has had 4 high picks for poor results in the standings. Had the prospect pool NOT improved I would be pretty bloody concerned at what the hell was going on.

It's no different than giving praise to Lowe for improving the Oilers prospects since 2008.

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12-02-2012, 06:50 PM
  #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Let's just clarify:

Burke did not trade Seguin, Hamilton and Knight for Kessel.

Burke traded 3 draft picks for Kessel.

Huge difference.
what's the difference?

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Old
12-02-2012, 06:51 PM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
It's over guys. You can't undo the Kessel trade. You either accept it and move on or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years.

Kessel is a superstar. I'm very happy with him.

Worrying about what could have been? Nah. I'm moving on with my life and I'm choosing to continue to cheer for the Leafs.
we can't change anything that has happened. we can't control anything that might happen in the future.

so should we all just stop talking about the leafs?

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12-02-2012, 06:52 PM
  #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
what's the difference?
You didn't know where the picks were going to land, nor who would
be picked.

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12-02-2012, 06:54 PM
  #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
So you are sucking and blowing in less than 3 pages.....it was a horrible decision then and would be again now.

High end Prospects/players are what is needed to make your team better.....the more the merrier! Has that concept eluded you?

Sucking and blowing. Yeah, not so much...high end prospects in a volatile market like Toronto with no front line of quality NHL level talent means that your prospects are almost certainly being rushed. And, subsequently thrown under the bus. Now that we have a decent group, I agree: the more the merrier, but when your organization has been stripped of talent at every level, you need a front line of capable young assets with game-breaker potential, not a bunch of kids who are expected to do a job men have failed to do.
Clearly, we have opposing philosophies on the matter. I contend that you need a relatively healthy group to begin with to allow prospects time to develop to their potential. See: DET. Burke didnt have that in Toronto. Therefore, he found high end help that could withstand the stupidity that comes with life in Toronto for pro athletes. Pretty simple...

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12-02-2012, 07:01 PM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Pyrophorus View Post
You didn't know where the picks were going to land, nor who would
be picked.
does that make him any less responsible or accountable for the outcome of the trade?

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12-02-2012, 07:11 PM
  #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
what's the difference?
The picks were unknowns. Neither Burke nor Chiarelli knew where the picks would be.

Chiarelli said he thought the 1st one would be in the top 10 for sure, and I agree. It was pretty hard to picture the Leafs doing that well the next year.

However I doubt neither of them thought for a minute the pick would be top 3.

Surely the Leafs would beat the NYI, CLB, EDM, FLA and maybe a few others.

It was a perfect storm that led to the LEafs finishing 29th.

If the Seguin pick had been #4 or 5 instead of #2 this trade would be a huge success for Burke.

So to simplify the difference it would be like this:

You have Seguin, Knight(or someone else) and the #9 pick in the draft. Do you trade them for Kessel?
NO you don't.

BUt that isn't what was traded. The position of the picks were undetermined.

It was a gamble.

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:14 PM
  #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
It's over guys. You can't undo the Kessel trade. You either accept it and move on or just cheer for another team.

It's been 3 and a half years.

Kessel is a superstar. I'm very happy with him.

Worrying about what could have been? Nah. I'm moving on with my life and I'm choosing to continue to cheer for the Leafs.
He might be a superstar but I don't see this guy as a winner. I have a feeling he will disappear in big playoff games just like he is invisible when they play the bruins

It bugs me to say it but he just doesn't have that drive that was worth the hefty price paid

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Old
12-02-2012, 07:15 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
does that make him any less responsible or accountable for the outcome of the trade?
Less.

If the team had perfromed well enough(relative term)to finish 27th or 28th, this trade would be considered a hands down win for the Leafs.

As I said earlier.

Burke doesn't coach and Burke doesn't play.

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