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Old
12-02-2012, 08:27 PM
  #326
charliolemieux
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Who's giving the coach or the players a free ride ?

The coach lost his job and Burke has turned over the players constantly , how many more redo's are you going to give him before you hold him accountable ?
The anti Burke crowd. Ya I said it!

Redo's?
HE isn't done with his first DO yet!

IF you look at the Blue Jays they might help you follow along.

First you acquire assets. Lots of assets. Enough assets so that if you traded a few you would still have solid replacements for your team.

Then you keep some the top assets and start moving others to acquire the pieces necessary to become a contender.

Burke is about 80-90% through the first phase. Everyone said it was a 7 year job. Burke came in and set an unrealistic goal of less than 5 years. I know how you guys love to hold that against him.

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12-02-2012, 08:33 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
do you see how every gm is history could argue this?

"hey, its not my fault the team is terrible. its just that the coach and the players are not executing. nothing i can do about that".

no gm would ever get fired.

and of course, no gm would ever get credit when his team wins.
HOW long has Glen Sather been in New York?
How long has Ken Holland been in Detroit?
HOw long has Darcy Regeir been in Buffalo?
How long has David Poile been in Nashville?

Let's give the guy more than 4 years to right a ship that was way more than just off course, it was going under.

And the Starting to count year 5 like some of the anti Burke guys are doing is pathetic. Jus' sayin'.

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12-02-2012, 08:34 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
If you've made your point 10 thousand times, you should start to talk about something else is all I'm saying.
Agreed.

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:38 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
HOW long has Glen Sather been in New York?
How long has Ken Holland been in Detroit?
HOw long has Darcy Regeir been in Buffalo?
How long has David Poile been in Nashville?

Let's give the guy more than 4 years to right a ship that was way more than just off course, it was going under.

And the Starting to count year 5 like some of the anti Burke guys are doing is pathetic. Jus' sayin'.
This is your favourite excuse for Burke... Look how crappy other GM's have been for a lot longer. It's really sad how low the bar you've set the bar for the Leafs. Why are we even arguing about the ****ing table scraps we've been given? Why not demand more??

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12-02-2012, 08:41 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
HOW long has Glen Sather been in New York?
How long has Ken Holland been in Detroit?
HOw long has Darcy Regeir been in Buffalo?
How long has David Poile been in Nashville?

Let's give the guy more than 4 years to right a ship that was way more than just off course, it was going under.

And the Starting to count year 5 like some of the anti Burke guys are doing is pathetic. Jus' sayin'.
word.

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12-02-2012, 08:43 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The anti Burke crowd. Ya I said it!

Redo's?
HE isn't done with his first DO yet!

IF you look at the Blue Jays they might help you follow along.

First you acquire assets. Lots of assets. Enough assets so that if you traded a few you would still have solid replacements for your team.

Then you keep some the top assets and start moving others to acquire the pieces necessary to become a contender.

Burke is about 80-90% through the first phase. Everyone said it was a 7 year job. Burke came in and set an unrealistic goal of less than 5 years. I know how you guys love to hold that against him.
Burke didn't even think it was a 5 year job, you're giving him 7? This aint' baseball, all we get are 50 contracts. That's it. This notion of "loading up" on prospects needs to be nipped in the bud. News flash, every team is "loading up" every year. If the season isn't played, other teams prospects are gaining a year of seasoning right along with Leafs prospects.

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:45 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I wouldn't argue about the fact that a franchise gets broken down and essentially and it comes down to the players that have to execute.

I think a lot of people are saying that its Burke that chooses the system and players, so he is in part to blame because he's not getting good enough players to execute the plan.

Of course I think that its a closer split than what you're eluding too. A player comes into the league with a certain skill-set and is only able to play to what his ability is. Its like drafting Morgan Rielly and asking him to play a shutdown role with the Leafs. No. He's going to score goals and generate an attack. So what I'm trying to get to is, if you have too many players that aren't playing their roles, you won't be winning any games. ie Bozak playing 1st line centre and Lombardi playing a 3rd line shutdown role.
Burke doesn't choose the system. I just say an interview yesterday where he said he doesn't interfere with the coach. He felt it was a very big reason why Carlyle took the job. Because he knew Burke was a hands off GM. He said other than maybe asking a coach to give some added TIO to a player being shopped the coach has free rein.

YEs he brings in the players and the coaches, but they still have to execute throughout the 82 game schedule. Burke doesn't take defensive zone faceoffs or takes the #3 spot in a shoot out.

I know everyone is stuck on the President Truman "The buck stops Here" mentaility, but that is Hollywood. Reality is the players are the ones on the ice.

BUrke's players were good enough to be in a playoff spot Feb 23 2012.

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12-02-2012, 08:47 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
This is your favourite excuse for Burke... Look how crappy other GM's have been for a lot longer. It's really sad how low the bar you've set the bar for the Leafs. Why are we even arguing about the ****ing table scraps we've been given? Why not demand more??
I think its a pretty good comparison.

Detroit hasn't missed the playoffs in over 20 years. Poille has been very consistent with a limited payroll. And New York is always good.

I do think that wanting more is appropriate though. I don't care who rights the ship or who's in charge of it, but its time for someone to step up and say that this has been awful for Toronto and we will guarantee playoffs. Quit the BS.

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12-02-2012, 08:47 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Burke doesn't choose the system. I just say an interview yesterday where he said he doesn't interfere with the coach. He felt it was a very big reason why Carlyle took the job. Because he knew Burke was a hands off GM. He said other than maybe asking a coach to give some added TIO to a player being shopped the coach has free rein.

YEs he brings in the players and the coaches, but they still have to execute throughout the 82 game schedule. Burke doesn't take defensive zone faceoffs or takes the #3 spot in a shoot out.
I know everyone is stuck on the President Truman "The buck stops Here" mentaility, but that is Hollywood. Reality is the players are the ones on the ice.

BUrke's players were good enough to be in a playoff spot Feb 23 2012.
it's Burke's job to supply his coach with a player who can do that. if there's no one capable of doing it he's not done his job

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:49 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
hard to value an unknown, yet both general managers did exactly that. the agreed value for those picks was phil kessel.

draft picks are traded for players all the time. gms continually put a value on draft picks.

i'm not twisting anything, just showing you how ridiculous your logic is.
YA ,and every time they do it is a roll of the dice. Burke lost. Whoop Dee DOo. Time to move on.

We still have an elite player. IT's not like all we have to show for it is Raycroft or Kurvers.

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:51 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
it's Burke's job to supply his coach with a player who can do that. if there's no one capable of doing it he's not done his job
Burke brought in the best available.

Not his fault if they couldn't beat the opposition.

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:52 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by -DeMo- View Post
it's Burke's job to supply his coach with a player who can do that. if there's no one capable of doing it he's not done his job
Uh Steckel and Kessel.

Faceoffs and Shootout.

Burke did his job.

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12-02-2012, 08:52 PM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I think its a pretty good comparison.

Detroit hasn't missed the playoffs in over 20 years. Poille has been very consistent with a limited payroll. And New York is always good.

I do think that wanting more is appropriate though. I don't care who rights the ship or who's in charge of it, but its time for someone to step up and say that this has been awful for Toronto and we will guarantee playoffs. Quit the BS.
NYR were not always good and Detroit sucked for years on end before the 90's.

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:55 PM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Burke doesn't choose the system. I just say an interview yesterday where he said he doesn't interfere with the coach. He felt it was a very big reason why Carlyle took the job. Because he knew Burke was a hands off GM. He said other than maybe asking a coach to give some added TIO to a player being shopped the coach has free rein.

YEs he brings in the players and the coaches, but they still have to execute throughout the 82 game schedule. Burke doesn't take defensive zone faceoffs or takes the #3 spot in a shoot out.

I know everyone is stuck on the President Truman "The buck stops Here" mentaility, but that is Hollywood. Reality is the players are the ones on the ice.

BUrke's players were good enough to be in a playoff spot Feb 23 2012.
The season is 82 games though, like you said. So his players weren't as good as what you thought to play the full season.

I don't know how you can say that a coach builds the system? Does the coach trade and draft the players?

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12-02-2012, 08:56 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by showtime8 View Post
I think its a pretty good comparison.

Detroit hasn't missed the playoffs in over 20 years. Poille has been very consistent with a limited payroll. And New York is always good.

I do think that wanting more is appropriate though. I don't care who rights the ship or who's in charge of it, but its time for someone to step up and say that this has been awful for Toronto and we will guarantee playoffs. Quit the BS.
What exactly is a good comparison? I believe I could find a lot of GM's that have a sub 500 winning record. Cup winning ones you say? Neil Smith and Jay Feaster are available. When you have a losing hand you fold it. Simple.

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12-02-2012, 08:58 PM
  #341
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Burke brought in the best available.

Not his fault if they couldn't beat the opposition.
It's not Burkes fault that the players he brought in weren't good enough? I guess we blame the teachers union??

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Old
12-02-2012, 08:59 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
This is your favourite excuse for Burke... Look how crappy other GM's have been for a lot longer. It's really sad how low the bar you've set the bar for the Leafs. Why are we even arguing about the ****ing table scraps we've been given? Why not demand more??
Those are far from crappy GM's.

If I was picking crappy GM's I would have stayed away from the ones that had won stanley cups and made the playoffs.

THose guys were given time. Give Burke Time. He is not destroying this team. It is getting stronger all the time. Why would you want to put that into someone else's hands who will be given a mandate to tear it down and start over?

Look at the bigger picture here people.

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12-02-2012, 09:01 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
YA ,and every time they do it is a roll of the dice. Burke lost. Whoop Dee DOo. Time to move on.

We still have an elite player. IT's not like all we have to show for it is Raycroft or Kurvers.
you're all over the map. you don't even know what you're arguing anymore.

yes, burke rolled the dice and lost. for that he is responsible and accountable.

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Old
12-02-2012, 09:02 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
This is your favourite excuse for Burke... Look how crappy other GM's have been for a lot longer. It's really sad how low the bar you've set the bar for the Leafs. Why are we even arguing about the ****ing table scraps we've been given? Why not demand more??
Labelling it as an excuse and proving how it is an excuse are too entirely separate things. You've done the former.

Sather has endured his share of criticism, survived the storm, and built a pretty damn competitive team over time. Turning over the front office every few years hoping that you'll ultimately stumble on the magic success formula hasn't gotten the Leafs anywhere, and we've gone through some damn good men in the process.

There's some semblance of stability with this management group that we haven't seen a lot of in Toronto. Burke's only "mistake" was in failing to predict Komisarek's relapse, Versteeg's inability to crack the top 6, and Beauchemin's struggles under Wilson's system. Taking a 21 year old sure shot who could rack up three consecutive 30+ goal seasons AND handle Toronto pressure wasn't a mistake. The other biggie was allowing Wilson to implement a style of play which requires you to score off the rush as opposed to playing a puck possession game. In fairness to Wilson, he didnt have the assets to play a game that requires your guys to take a ton of abuse. Run n gun, one and done; whatever term you prefer, once the league started lightening up on clutching in the neutral zone, the Leafs style of attack was virtually mitigated. They had no answer, and the goalie (coach) controversy didnt help matters either.

A passing grade for Burke at this point wouldn't be any fairer than the opposite. The body of evidence isn't big enough, or complete enough, to draw any real conclusions. The overall picture is much improved over the last 4 years from an organizational standpoint. That's really all we know.

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12-02-2012, 09:04 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
HOW long has Glen Sather been in New York?
How long has Ken Holland been in Detroit?
HOw long has Darcy Regeir been in Buffalo?
How long has David Poile been in Nashville?

Let's give the guy more than 4 years to right a ship that was way more than just off course, it was going under.

And the Starting to count year 5 like some of the anti Burke guys are doing is pathetic. Jus' sayin'.
what are you talking about? what does the amount of time on the job have anything to do with your warped logic?

none of those general managers coach their teams or play the game on the ice. so how can they possibly be responsible for the on-ice results? whether they're there for one year or 30 years, they're still not coaching or playing, thus are not responsible for the results.

that's your logic.

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Old
12-02-2012, 09:05 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by achtungbaby View Post
It's not Burkes fault that the players he brought in weren't good enough? I guess we blame the teachers union??
Did he take every shift?

Typical of this generation. Find the easy target instead of putting the responsibility where it belongs.

Ooooh put a warning on my coffee cup because I'm too dense to understand something that is boiled is hot.

The players were the ones on the ice. BUrke got the best ones he could he did his job. Until Feb 23 they were in playoff spot and the same players looked pretty good.


Just how much blame do you think he sould take?

I already said I feel his impact is about 1/24.

How much do you think he is impacting every game.

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12-02-2012, 09:07 PM
  #347
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Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Did he take every shift?

Typical of this generation. Find the easy target instead of putting the responsibility where it belongs.

Ooooh put a warning on my coffee cup because I'm too dense to understand something that is boiled is hot.

The players were the ones on the ice. BUrke got the best ones he could he did his job. Until Feb 23 they were in playoff spot and the same players looked pretty good.


Just how much blame do you think he sould take?

I already said I feel his impact is about 1/24.

How much do you think he is impacting every game.
When the team sucks for 4 years, whom do you blame?

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12-02-2012, 09:08 PM
  #348
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what are you talking about? what does the amount of time on the job have anything to do with your warped logic?

none of those general managers coach their teams or play the game on the ice. so how can they possibly be responsible for the on-ice results? whether they're there for one year or 30 years, they're still not coaching or playing, thus are not responsible for the results.

that's your logic.
Warped logic?

The GM's bring in the pieces and the players execute.

How are you not understanding this?

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12-02-2012, 09:09 PM
  #349
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When the team sucks for 4 years, whom do you blame?
I'm gonna say "team".

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12-02-2012, 09:12 PM
  #350
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"BUrke's players were good enough to be in a playoff spot Feb 23 2012."

- Ok then, if they were good enough to be in a playoff spot Feb 23rd then they were also bad enough to fall to the bottom by the end of the season too.

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