HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

4th year anniversary

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-01-2012, 11:02 PM
  #151
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post

- Or how about the goalie who was undrafted and had an underyling heart condtion? I can play your game just as good as your playing it.
Burke got him when everyone else wanted him.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:04 PM
  #152
Kingstonian84*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Burke got him when everyone else wanted him.
And your point is what exactly? Gus never panned out here, so I don't see how this works in Burkes favour.....

Kingstonian84* is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:05 PM
  #153
4evaBlue
Corsi != Possession
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The season started to go wrong when Wilson said Reimer was still the guy after Gus had played well enough to keep the team near the top of the league. Reimer was still a month or more away from returning, but it seemed to get into Gus' head and his play dropped off. If Wilson had kept his mouth shut and just kept playing Gus he might still be coach.
While I agree that it was what lead to his eventual downfall (thankfully), that was only one of many issues with Wilson. He's mishandled a few prospects in favor of the golden boys. Reimer over Gus, Frattin over Kadri, XXX over Franson, criticizing Kessel when he only has Bozak and Crabb to play with, etc. It's like his purpose was to mess with their heads.

Putting all that aside, fine, he wasn't a player's coach, or had any people's skills. How much faith do you have in Wilson being able to improve our special teams in the next 5 years?

In retrospect, I'm glad things worked out the way they have. I don't expect to see at least half of the roster with the Leafs in a year or two, so that whole playoff experience, and growing as a team wouldn't have been very useful. If we're weren't going to be contenders, picking up Reilly and getting rid of Wilson at the same time was a pretty sweat deal.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:05 PM
  #154
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
I agree the coach needs to get the most out of his players, and the players need to excuete it. But guess WHO is responsible for hiring the coach and players.... his name is Brian Burke and he too deserves an equal amount of blame.
So you're saying because "The Buck Stops Here" Burke is responsible for everything that goes on in the franchise?

I hope they gave him a nice fat bonus for turning the Leafs into a billion dollar franchise on his own.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:05 PM
  #155
GoodNewfieBoy
Jim,coach Leafs too?
 
GoodNewfieBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: St. John's
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyGuruPitka View Post
What happened then doesn’t matter. You need to live in the present. If Burke hadn’t made these necessary changes, we would have sank with the ship. He turned worthless hockey players into assets and made something out of nothing. The players we have now, have trade value. The players back then were old and weren’t even considered top 6 forwards on most teams. Yes our defense is subject right now, however we have one of the deepest defensive prospect pools in the league. he has built it up in order to be sustainable over a long period. Yes i will admit that he hasn’t addressed the two most pressing issues goaltending and center, however any semi intelligent person would know that these are also the most difficult positions to fill. Do me a favour and figure out how many of the top goalies and centers in this league were acquired versus developed. Get back to me.
Reading through this thread, you have the best idea of what has happened in the last 4 years, imho.

GoodNewfieBoy is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:06 PM
  #156
4evaBlue
Corsi != Possession
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
And your point is what exactly? Gus never panned out here, so I don't see how this works in Burkes favour.....
The ability to attract sought after free agents. Same goes for Bozak, who had quite a few suitors before the Leafs signed him. They didn't need to throw them retarded contracts to lure them to the city.

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:08 PM
  #157
Kingstonian84*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,411
vCash: 500
[QUOTE=charliolemieux;56175993]So you're saying because "The Buck Stops Here" Burke is responsible for everything that goes on in the franchise?

Way to be a drama queen....! No, Burke is not responsible for everything, ultimately the players and coaches need to do their jobs, what I am saying is Burke owns his role in this too because he was the one who brought in the coaches and players, he has blame too.

Kingstonian84* is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:11 PM
  #158
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
While I agree that it was what lead to his eventual downfall (thankfully), that was only one of many issues with Wilson. He's mishandled a few prospects in favor of the golden boys. Reimer over Gus, Frattin over Kadri, XXX over Franson, criticizing Kessel when he only has Bozak and Crabb to play with, etc. It's like his purpose was to mess with their heads.

Putting all that aside, fine, he wasn't a player's coach, or had any people's skills. How much faith do you have in Wilson being able to improve our special teams in the next 5 years?

In retrospect, I'm glad things worked out the way they have. I don't expect to see at least half of the roster with the Leafs in a year or two, so that whole playoff experience, and growing as a team wouldn't have been very useful. If we're weren't going to be contenders, picking up Reilly and getting rid of Wilson at the same time was a pretty sweat deal.
Wilson was definitly way to openly negative about his players. I agree on all the scenarios you mentioned.

Really I agree it turned out pretty well for the franchise in the end. We got a jem in Rielly.

If we had made the post season and got bounced everyone would be crying how we didn't tank and get a good pick.

No pleasing this fanbase.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:16 PM
  #159
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
And your point is what exactly? Gus never panned out here, so I don't see how this works in Burkes favour.....
BUrke got what was it 4 of the top 5 undrafted free agents teams were drooling over.

He is good at bringing in players. He can sell the virtues of the team and the city.

Or would you rather have a GM that couldn't attract a dog with a pork chop?

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:23 PM
  #160
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Way to be a drama queen....! No, Burke is not responsible for everything, ultimately the players and coaches need to do their jobs, what I am saying is Burke owns his role in this too because he was the one who brought in the coaches and players, he has blame too.
No drama just exaspiration.

I already said he has some responsibility.

If he has to take all the blame, then he gets to take all the credit too. You can't have it both ways.

.

charliolemieux is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:26 PM
  #161
Kingstonian84*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,411
vCash: 500
I already said he has some responsibility. I just don't bellieve he is totally responsible for them finishing 26th like you want to paint it.

- Finally we agree on something that Burke holds some accoutnability! I never said that he was 100% to blame you misinterpreted what I said, I said he has his share of the blame but I also said the players and coaches are equally blameworthy too.

Kingstonian84* is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:29 PM
  #162
Kingstonian84*
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,411
vCash: 500
If we had made the post season and got bounced everyone would be crying how we didn't tank and get a good pick.

Who's "everyone"?, I certaintly would have been glad if we made the playoffs and got bounced because it would mean we are showing progress as a team.

Kingstonian84* is offline  
Old
12-01-2012, 11:42 PM
  #163
4evaBlue
Corsi != Possession
 
4evaBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
Who's "everyone"?, I certaintly would have been glad if we made the playoffs and got bounced because it would mean we are showing progress as a team.
Would it? If Burke signs Jagr and Khabibulin for next season, and we squeek into the playoffs due to their heroics, would the team really have improved?

4evaBlue is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 12:01 AM
  #164
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paladin2799 View Post
I really like burke, but I thought I would respond to your question.

I forget the guys name, but the guy who took over the panthers last year took them from the basement to a competent playoff team. That being said I wouldnt want Toronto to go down the same path. Much happier collecting prospects so we can win long term then signing people like jovocop to deals that will only hurt the team.
Florida is not a 'competitive' team. They are a team built to 'make the playoffs'. They are what we used to be.

The Apologist is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 12:03 AM
  #165
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingstonian84 View Post
And your point is what exactly? Gus never panned out here, so I don't see how this works in Burkes favour.....
I can do that with every other gm in the NHL. I know you're a 'realist' and all, so I'm sure you already know that not every move works out the way you want it to.

The secret? Learn from your mistakes. Funny how since that first season, Burke has done nothing but amass youth, aka rebuild.

The Apologist is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 12:05 AM
  #166
The Apologist
Kessel Supporter
 
The Apologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Soviet Kanukistan
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,247
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Wilson was definitly way to openly negative about his players. I agree on all the scenarios you mentioned.

Really I agree it turned out pretty well for the franchise in the end. We got a jem in Rielly.

If we had made the post season and got bounced everyone would be crying how we didn't tank and get a good pick.

No pleasing this fanbase.
Wilson was what this team needed at the time. I hope Carlyle is what we need for the next step.

The Apologist is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 01:28 AM
  #167
hockeywiz542
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,192
vCash: 500
http://www.torontosun.com/2012/12/01...leafs-gm-burke

Quote:
TORONTO - Brian Burke is on the clock.

Forget the four years of playoff failure, a period in which his Maple Leafs team has lacked direction and cried out for consistency.

Forget the lack of big-time goaltending or a legitimate first-line centre.

And forget the bluster from the boss and the ripping rhetoric of his detractors.

Whenever NHL hockey returns, whether it be this winter or somewhere in the great beyond, the pressure to deliver results will be as intense as it ever has been for the at times beleaguered GM and his reign in the sport's highest-profile market.

Burke's fourth-year anniversary in Toronto passed this week with his hands helplessly bound by the lockout with regards to anything affecting the current on-ice product. Instead, Burke and his management staff spend time and attention on prospects and minor-league players, no doubt hoping that when the big game finally returns, some of those prospects are that much closer to helping him climb out of a hole that keeps on filling in.

For even if Burke is laying an effective foundation for the future -- and there are plenty of indications that is the case -- patience may no longer be a currency in his possession.

With a new ownership group in place and a restless fan base that hasn't seen a playoff team since before the previous lockout, the heat will be dialed up even higher, if that is possible.

hockeywiz542 is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 01:52 AM
  #168
Grant
LL Genius
 
Grant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: London
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,949
vCash: 0
One thing to remember is big corporations (Rogers + Bell) don't just buy teams for championships. They are in it for the money. They may say otherwise but of course they will, are they going to say they just want to make money? That would outrage fans.

When Burke came here in 2008, the leafs value was 448m (as at October 29th, 2008, http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/...fs_312012.html). Just recently they got valued at 1000m. That is a huge increase. Even if we ignore that one due to the huge increase from the valuation of 521m in 2011, that was still a 16.3% increase over 3 years or over 5% a year. Very good for the recession years.

The fan in me wants to say to do what is best for the team towards winning a championship. But I know ownership is going to do whatever is best for them which is making as much money as possible. Playoffs could be just that thing, Burke may or may not be the guy for that depending on your point of view. But if they get rid of Burke, the person they bring in may not be increasing the team's value by 5%+ a year. One thing to remember is Burke is pretty outspoken, one of if not the most outspoken in the league, and because of that the Leafs are almost always being talked about which would help their value to go up. The costs and benefits of each would have to be weighed against each other.

Grant is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 07:09 AM
  #169
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Before Wilson started throwing Gus under the bus this team was fighting for the division lead.

The players were fine the coaching was not. HE is no more responsible than any other GM in the league, so quit looking for his head on a platter. The coaches need to coach and the players need to play. The GM can't do that.
Finally some bloody sanity, you are exactly right about this. You are spot on, Wilson opening his big mouth undermining the confidence of a good goalie. He gave up some weak ones but he was making some big stops to. Gus was starting to put it together and now detroit stole him. They are going to be laughing all the way to the bank.

thewave is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 07:11 AM
  #170
thewave
Registered User
 
thewave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 9,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grant View Post
One thing to remember is big corporations (Rogers + Bell) don't just buy teams for championships. They are in it for the money. They may say otherwise but of course they will, are they going to say they just want to make money? That would outrage fans.

When Burke came here in 2008, the leafs value was 448m (as at October 29th, 2008, http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/31/...fs_312012.html). Just recently they got valued at 1000m. That is a huge increase. Even if we ignore that one due to the huge increase from the valuation of 521m in 2011, that was still a 16.3% increase over 3 years or over 5% a year. Very good for the recession years.

The fan in me wants to say to do what is best for the team towards winning a championship. But I know ownership is going to do whatever is best for them which is making as much money as possible. Playoffs could be just that thing, Burke may or may not be the guy for that depending on your point of view. But if they get rid of Burke, the person they bring in may not be increasing the team's value by 5%+ a year. One thing to remember is Burke is pretty outspoken, one of if not the most outspoken in the league, and because of that the Leafs are almost always being talked about which would help their value to go up. The costs and benefits of each would have to be weighed against each other.
Can you even imagine the sales of Leafs branded items after a win? Even just making it to the cup? I think the revenues would be staggering if not epic in the history of possibly sports.

thewave is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 09:59 AM
  #171
diceman934
Registered User
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 6,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
The season started to go wrong when Wilson said Reimer was still the guy after Gus had played well enough to keep the team near the top of the league. Reimer was still a month or more away from returning, but it seemed to get into Gus' head and his play dropped off. If Wilson had kept his mouth shut and just kept playing Gus he might still be coach.




BUrke didn't play.

Burke didn't coach.

Sure he's responsible for keeping Wilson around too long but that doesn't make him soley responsible for the team falling so far so fast. Which is something the anti Burke crowd would like us all to believe.

The players had to play and the Coaches had to coach. Burke did everything he could in his position.

YOU guys want to crucify him as some scapegoat, and fail to notice how bad it was when he got here. How Fletcher undermined him with the Steen deal days before he took over.

If the people before BUrke had been any good then we would never have needed BUrke in the first place.

BUrke has some responsibility in the poor finish last year, but he has way more responsibility in the roster full of youth and talent that we now have.
Burke is fully responsible.....

Burke keep Wilson as the coach and even extended him....so yes Burke is responsible.

Burke appointed Dion as the face and Captain of the Leafs.......failure....Dion is not a leader nor should he be a captain of the leafs. Burke never addressed the lack of leadership in the Dressing room and never brought in any players that could provide leadership.

Failure to provide a goaltender that could stop the puck......Burke's fault.

I love how people on here state that it was Fletcher or Fergerson's fault for the players that were here etc.....but it's not Burke's fault now? Look who Burke has brought in and tell me just how they have made the team better.

The players had to play......Burke's players failed to play....

By every factual piece of information Burke has failed, only opinions are left to support a persons claim that Burke has not failed.

He set the bar and he has failed to even come within reach of the bar that he set.....he has been a disappointment and a failure based on his expectations.

diceman934 is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 10:01 AM
  #172
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,694
vCash: 500
I think Gus will put up great numbers in Detroit. The Nhl's top management and organization still gladly signed him and see potential in him.

RogerRoeper* is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 10:33 AM
  #173
GordieHoweHatTrick
Registered User
 
GordieHoweHatTrick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Toronto
Posts: 13,148
vCash: 500
His contract carries through into next season (assuming there is one)? Another year after that to see if the young guys he drafted make an impact on the team surrounded by Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, among others before, before deciding whether or not he deserves to be axed. I believe it was Ken Holland who said that, realistically, a GM should be afforded 10 years to really see the effect he has made on a franchise. While 10 years may be a little excessive, 3-4 years is simply too short of a time to evaluate a GM

GordieHoweHatTrick is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 10:46 AM
  #174
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,694
vCash: 500
Is firing Burke and letting Nonis take over going to make a big difference?

RogerRoeper* is offline  
Old
12-02-2012, 10:47 AM
  #175
diceman934
Registered User
 
diceman934's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NHL player factory
Posts: 6,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
His contract carries through into next season (assuming there is one)? Another year after that to see if the young guys he drafted make an impact on the team surrounded by Kessel, Phaneuf, JVR, among others before, before deciding whether or not he deserves to be axed. I believe it was Ken Holland who said that, realistically, a GM should be afforded 10 years to really see the effect he has made on a franchise. While 10 years may be a little excessive, 3-4 years is simply too short of a time to evaluate a GM
The issues are Burke himself stated that he would not need 5 years....and he set out to prove it....Trading away draft picks and signing useless free agents to prove it. He put us back another two years in our rebuild as a result. We will not win anything with Phaneuf as our captain as the players will not follow him.

Asset management has been a weak point and that is all we have currently. He signed a concussed D man to a 4 year extension? He signed a 2nd/3rd line center to a 5 million a year contract, while still not having a 1st line center. We lack toughness and trade our most physical D man for a soft forward? We signed a band aid as our number one Center and he played on our 3rd line as a checker for 4.5 million. We take on a contract Lombo because we are getting a young asset and we abuse/mistreat the young asset?

I believe that Burke is desperate and he will make poor decisions as a result. Look at his decisions when he was not desperate. He extended the coach, he build a team that his coach wanted that was contrary to what his own professed beliefs are.....how does this equate to keeping him?


Last edited by diceman934: 12-02-2012 at 10:55 AM.
diceman934 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:15 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.