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Old
12-02-2012, 09:57 AM
  #176
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Is firing Burke and letting Nonis take over going to make a big difference?
Why would that be our only option?

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12-02-2012, 09:57 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
The issues are Burke himself stated that he would not need 5 years....and he set out to prove it....Trading away draft picks and signing useless free agents to prove it. He put us back another two years in our rebuild as a result. We will not win anything with Phaneuf as our captain as the players will not follow him.

I believe that Burke is desperate and he will make poor decisions as a result. Look at his decisions when he was not desperate. He extended the coach, he build a team that his coach wanted that was contrary to what his own professed beliefs are.....how does this equate to keeping him?
Bitter much ?

I like how you have decided Dion is a bad Captain when there has never been any indication the players do not like his leadership style, in fact there is far more evidence to suggest he is in fact a leader.

Also, just deciding Burke is desperate to claim he will make bad moves is pretty flimsy.

Your complaint about the extention is also irrational since it in no way hurt the Team and did not stop Burke from firing him.

Burke has done a fine job, you Burke haters try a little to hard to prove your points usually overlooking the facts to focus on your own measurment of success.

Saying that getting Kessel set us back two years is also laughable since he is better than Seguin (currently) and none of the other assets have proven to be NHLers.

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12-02-2012, 10:18 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by BlueBaron View Post
Bitter much ?

I like how you have decided Dion is a bad Captain when there has never been any indication the players do not like his leadership style, in fact there is far more evidence to suggest he is in fact a leader.

Also, just deciding Burke is desperate to claim he will make bad moves is pretty flimsy.

Your complaint about the extention is also irrational since it in no way hurt the Team and did not stop Burke from firing him.

Burke has done a fine job, you Burke haters try a little to hard to prove your points usually overlooking the facts to focus on your own measurment of success.

Saying that getting Kessel set us back two years is also laughable since he is better than Seguin (currently) and none of the other assets have proven to be NHLers.
Really, Kessel is better than Seguin....there would not be one GM that would make that trade straight up at this point.....never mind tossing in Hamilton.


What evident is there to show that Dion is a good captain.....please enlighten me.

What are the facts when it comes to Burke...

Is it the fact that we are still a lottery pick team?
Is it the fact that we lacked a goalie when he arrived and we still do?
Is it the fact that we lacked a Number one center and we still do?


Please use facts as I have yet to see any evidence to suggest that Burke has done a good job.

He allowed his coaches to undermined each other.
He allows his coaches to publicly trash the players.
He speaks nonsense and bullies the media.

Those are facts.....so please do not simply pass this off as a Burke hater....he has not done as promised and for that I hold him accountable. You can turn a blind eye to all of this, but I can't.

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12-02-2012, 10:19 AM
  #179
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The biggest single thing has been the goaltending. No team can succeed without a goalie, and that has been Burke's biggest failing here. He's going to have to do something there before hockey starts again if he wants to extend his stay in Toronto. If Ferguson had not been such a moron, we'd still have Rask who would be a pretty good candidate for starter. That's the real horrible trade with Boston (that nobody ever talks about).

The other problem has been ineffective free agent signings. If the guys he signed had done their jobs instead of being dead weight, it's a whole different situation. That's of course leaving aside the avoidance of top talent by ownership, but that's another argument. Rogers and Bell will have to change that philosophy if they want those juicy playoff broadcasts.

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12-02-2012, 10:25 AM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
The issues are Burke himself stated that he would not need 5 years....and he set out to prove it....Trading away draft picks and signing useless free agents to prove it. He put us back another two years in our rebuild as a result. We will not win anything with Phaneuf as our captain as the players will not follow him.

Asset management has been a weak point and that is all we have currently. He signed a concussed D man to a 4 year extension? He signed a 2nd/3rd line center to a 5 million a year contract, while still not having a 1st line center. We lack toughness and trade our most physical D man for a soft forward? We signed a band aid as our number one Center and he played on our 3rd line as a checker for 4.5 million. We take on a contract Lombo because we are getting a young asset and we abuse/mistreat the young asset?

I believe that Burke is desperate and he will make poor decisions as a result. Look at his decisions when he was not desperate. He extended the coach, he build a team that his coach wanted that was contrary to what his own professed beliefs are.....how does this equate to keeping him?
Disagree entirely with your second paragraph about asset management because I believe all the points you mentioned, aside from the Connolly & Lombo mentions, are incorect. Judging by your post I think you'd like Liles and Grabovski gone and I fail to see how that is supposed to be make the Maple Leafs better. The comment about trading our "most physical defenseman for a soft forward" is extremely short-sighted and simple. That most physical defenseman was becoming a floundering asset in Toronto and has been regressing to the point of becoming a #5-6 defenseman. All in all, I think your post was put together based on personal biases.

On a side note,
Why does Grabovski get so much hate? I'm not a fan of the contract but a fan of the player. The contract doesn't make me wish we rid ourselves of our best center though. Without him we don't even know how our 2nd line would function

Ps,
If I'm a Burke basher I'd be focusing on criticizing him for hiring Ron Wilson to coach a slow and lumbering team. At least there you could make some substantive claims about how he messed up instead some unsubstantive claims about how signing player x will be a mistake.


Last edited by GordieHoweHatTrick: 12-02-2012 at 10:32 AM.
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12-02-2012, 10:35 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Disagree entirely with your second paragraph about asset management because I believe all the points you mentioned, aside from the Connolly & Lombo mentions, are incorect. Judging by your post I think you'd like Liles and Grabovski gone and I fail to see how that is supposed to be make the Maple Leafs better. The comment about trading our "most physical defenseman for a soft forward" is extremely short-sighted and simple. That most physical defenseman was becoming a floundering asset in Toronto and has been regressing to the point of becoming a #5-6 defenseman. All in all, I think your post was put together based on personal biases.

On a side note,
Why does Grabovski get so much hate? I'm not a fan of the contract but a fan of the player. The contract doesn't make me wish we rid ourselves of our best center though. Without him we don't even know how our 2nd line would function
I dislike the Liles signing: Concussed and not required as we have a replacement for him already. Trading him would have been more prudent. Grabo I like as a hockey player, but not at that value. The Flounder asset was a young player who was subjected to a moron for a coach and dressing room issues. He will be fine and we will point to this trade as another example of poor asset management.

Franson is a asset who we seriously mishandled last season, we have devalued him as a result. JVR is a soft big body forward, we need big body players who play big, we already have the older version of JVR and are overpaying him to play on our 3rdline.

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12-02-2012, 10:36 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Really, Kessel is better than Seguin....there would not be one GM that would make that trade straight up at this point.....never mind tossing in Hamilton.


What evident is there to show that Dion is a good captain.....please enlighten me.

What are the facts when it comes to Burke...

Is it the fact that we are still a lottery pick team?
Is it the fact that we lacked a goalie when he arrived and we still do?
Is it the fact that we lacked a Number one center and we still do?


Please use facts as I have yet to see any evidence to suggest that Burke has done a good job.

He allowed his coaches to undermined each other.
He allows his coaches to publicly trash the players.
He speaks nonsense and bullies the media.

Those are facts.....so please do not simply pass this off as a Burke hater....he has not done as promised and for that I hold him accountable. You can turn a blind eye to all of this, but I can't.
Dude, just because you believe something it doesnt make it true. You don't know if any GM would trade them straight up so why are you presenting it like a fact ? Hamilton is a nice prospect who we may never have drafted or who may end up a lower pairing defenseman (if he even becomes an NHL regular), so this has not really crippled the franchise.

Dion has proved to be supportive of new players, he organizes team functions, he is a hard worker, his team mates speak of him with respect etc etc. These are some of the things good Captains do.

It is true that Wilson had a grating style and Burke has made some bold statements that he could not later back up, but niether of these things remotely proves he is not doing a good job as GM. I am sorry if I incorrectly judged you a Burke hater but your irrational arguments make you suspect.

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12-02-2012, 10:40 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
Disagree entirely with your second paragraph about asset management because I believe all the points you mentioned, aside from the Connolly & Lombo mentions, are incorect. Judging by your post I think you'd like Liles and Grabovski gone and I fail to see how that is supposed to be make the Maple Leafs better. The comment about trading our "most physical defenseman for a soft forward" is extremely short-sighted and simple. That most physical defenseman was becoming a floundering asset in Toronto and has been regressing to the point of becoming a #5-6 defenseman. All in all, I think your post was put together based on personal biases.

On a side note,
Why does Grabovski get so much hate? I'm not a fan of the contract but a fan of the player. The contract doesn't make me wish we rid ourselves of our best center though. Without him we don't even know how our 2nd line would function

Ps,
If I'm a Burke basher I'd be focusing on criticizing him for hiring Ron Wilson to coach a slow and lumbering team. At least there you could make some substantive claims about how he messed up instead some unsubstantive claims about how signing player x will be a mistake.
Your PS.....make no sense ....in your haste to trying to validate your support of Burke you failed to read all of what I posted.

Quote:
I believe that Burke is desperate and he will make poor decisions as a result. Look at his decisions when he was not desperate. He extended the coach, he build a team that his coach wanted that was contrary to what his own professed beliefs are.....how does this equate to keeping him?

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12-02-2012, 10:40 AM
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GordieHoweHatTrick View Post
If I'm a Burke basher I'd be focusing on criticizing him for hiring Ron Wilson to coach a slow and lumbering team. At least there you could make some substantive claims about how he messed up instead some unsubstantive claims about how signing player x will be a mistake.
He did not actually hire him, Fletcher did. Burke signed him to an extention that did not matter because he was fired when the wheels fell off.

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12-02-2012, 10:49 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Burke is fully responsible.....

Burke keep Wilson as the coach and even extended him....so yes Burke is responsible.

Burke appointed Dion as the face and Captain of the Leafs.......failure....Dion is not a leader nor should he be a captain of the leafs. Burke never addressed the lack of leadership in the Dressing room and never brought in any players that could provide leadership.

Failure to provide a goaltender that could stop the puck......Burke's fault.

I love how people on here state that it was Fletcher or Fergerson's fault for the players that were here etc.....but it's not Burke's fault now? Look who Burke has brought in and tell me just how they have made the team better.

The players had to play......Burke's players failed to play....

By every factual piece of information Burke has failed, only opinions are left to support a persons claim that Burke has not failed.

He set the bar and he has failed to even come within reach of the bar that he set.....he has been a disappointment and a failure based on his expectations.
Burkes responsibility is to fix what is wrong. If the players don't play, his job is to find players who will. If his coach ain't coaching, his job is to replace him. Let's see if he does that.

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12-02-2012, 10:51 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Really, Kessel is better than Seguin....there would not be one GM that would make that trade straight up at this point.....never mind tossing in Hamilton.


What evident is there to show that Dion is a good captain.....please enlighten me.

What are the facts when it comes to Burke...

Is it the fact that we are still a lottery pick team?
Is it the fact that we lacked a goalie when he arrived and we still do?
Is it the fact that we lacked a Number one center and we still do?


Please use facts as I have yet to see any evidence to suggest that Burke has done a good job.

He allowed his coaches to undermined each other.
He allows his coaches to publicly trash the players.
He speaks nonsense and bullies the media.

Those are facts.....so please do not simply pass this off as a Burke hater....he has not done as promised and for that I hold him accountable. You can turn a blind eye to all of this, but I can't.
No, those are opinions, would you like to see a definition of the word?

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12-02-2012, 10:53 AM
  #187
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The coaching situation was made very clear. Burke didn't want to fire a just-hired coach (who is/was well-respected in the industry) from the job until he provided a team that he felt could be competitive.

That point where the players were at an adequate level was last season when Reimer emerged.

The 2nd-half of that year, we were one of the best teams in the league. The first half of this past year, we were one of the best teams in the league.

When the wheels fell off, he was fired.

I disliked Wilson as much as the next guy, but Burke's handling of him is actually pretty rational.

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12-02-2012, 10:58 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Your PS.....make no sense ....in your haste to trying to validate your support of Burke you failed to read all of what I posted.
I believe your assessment of what you believe Burke will do makes no sense. Burke has made one big trade that I can think of that didn't make us younger, and he brought in a 21 year old star. He admitted he overestimated the team initially and has since stockpiled youth and picks to surround his now 25 year old star. If he was so desperate to make the playoffs, why not do it two years ago when the team was close? Why not make a big move with the team in the middle of the playoff hunt last year? If he was so desperate to make the playoffs, you think he would have made some sort of desperation move?

Yet another post based on unrealistic and unlikely bs. There is so much realistically wrong with this team, why do people feel the need to come out with nonsense to try and make a point?

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12-02-2012, 11:03 AM
  #189
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Why would that be our only option?
Nonis would easily be the frontrunner for the job.

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12-02-2012, 11:05 AM
  #190
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No, those are opinions, would you like to see a definition of the word?
No those were facts.

Quote:
What are the facts when it comes to Burke...

Is it the fact that we are still a lottery pick team?
Is it the fact that we lacked a goalie when he arrived and we still do?
Is it the fact that we lacked a Number one center and we still do?


Please use facts as I have yet to see any evidence to suggest that Burke has done a good job.

He allowed his coaches to undermined each other.
He allows his coaches to publicly trash the players.
He speaks nonsense and bullies the media.
All true statements.

We were a lottery pick team last draft...
We still need a number one goalie...
We still need a number one center

Wilson and Eakins both have trashed Kadri in the media.
Burke admitted that he allowed his coaching staff to go against his goalie coach....
He speaks nonsense in the media and attacks them.....

So those are all true.

Here is an opinion.....as I can not substantiate it with a fact....Burke is a ****** GM ....I can only support my opinion with facts as I did.

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12-02-2012, 11:07 AM
  #191
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Nonis would easily be the frontrunner for the job.
Maybe....but not our only option. I personally do not think it would be a good option.

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12-02-2012, 11:11 AM
  #192
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Who can predict what will happen with the Leafs? They could draft first overall next June and sign a couple of big free agents. Anything can happen.

Give Burke more time.

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12-02-2012, 11:12 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Burke is fully responsible.....

Burke keep Wilson as the coach and even extended him....so yes Burke is responsible.

Burke appointed Dion as the face and Captain of the Leafs.......failure....Dion is not a leader nor should he be a captain of the leafs. Burke never addressed the lack of leadership in the Dressing room and never brought in any players that could provide leadership.

Failure to provide a goaltender that could stop the puck......Burke's fault.

I love how people on here state that it was Fletcher or Fergerson's fault for the players that were here etc.....but it's not Burke's fault now? Look who Burke has brought in and tell me just how they have made the team better.

The players had to play......Burke's players failed to play....

By every factual piece of information Burke has failed, only opinions are left to support a persons claim that Burke has not failed.

He set the bar and he has failed to even come within reach of the bar that he set.....he has been a disappointment and a failure based on his expectations.
I see youre posting unsubstantiated claims and rumors yet again. For starters, Wilson made Dion the captain, not Burke. There are quotes from Burke on this; why yiu continue to falsify informaton is still a mystery to me. If Dion is such a poor captain, please provide something on this board. Otherwise it is all oppinion and not fact. Finally it takes time to completely change over a team, this is common sense, your desperately trying to push an agenda here, its getting very old.

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12-02-2012, 11:13 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
We were a lottery pick team last draft...
Yes, we were, after holding a playoff spot for 2/3 of the season.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
We still need a number one goalie...
We MAY need a #1 goalie, one of 20 players on a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
We still need a number one center
We MAY need a #1 center, one of 20 players on a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Wilson and Eakins both have trashed Kadri in the media.
No they haven't. The media has twisted things said into bashing, and the mindless drones jump. Constructive criticism on the other hand is not a bad thing, which many of you need to understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Burke admitted that he allowed his coaching staff to go against his goalie coach....
So what? The goalie coach, who was the best in the league when hired, was out of line. That's not Burke's fault. Burke fired him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
He speaks nonsense in the media and attacks them.....
He doesn't attack the media. The media attacks him. Big difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
So those are all true.
You have a very weird understanding about what facts are.

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12-02-2012, 11:19 AM
  #195
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Dude, just because you believe something it doesnt make it true. You don't know if any GM would trade them straight up so why are you presenting it like a fact ? Hamilton is a nice prospect who we may never have drafted or who may end up a lower pairing defenseman (if he even becomes an NHL regular), so this has not really crippled the franchise.

Dion has proved to be supportive of new players, he organizes team functions, he is a hard worker, his team mates speak of him with respect etc etc. These are some of the things good Captains do.

It is true that Wilson had a grating style and Burke has made some bold statements that he could not later back up, but niether of these things remotely proves he is not doing a good job as GM. I am sorry if I incorrectly judged you a Burke hater but your irrational arguments make you suspect.
You presented that Kessel was better then Seguin as a fact....I only responded. Hamilton may be a bottom pair D man if he makes it as an NHL regular.....really now you are getting goofy!

I do not believe that you could find a GM that would trade Kessel for Seguin straight up now!

Dion arranges what....he could not even see fit to attend one of two Party to celebrate Sundin ....why does he wear a Red Bull hat to post game interviews? He is a very poor leader...he does work hard. Lets hope Carlyle can rein him in.....Carlyle spoke about it all ready.

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12-02-2012, 11:22 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Yes, we were, after holding a playoff spot for 2/3 of the season.


We MAY need a #1 goalie, one of 20 players on a team.


We MAY need a #1 center, one of 20 players on a team.


No they haven't. The media has twisted things said into bashing, and the mindless drones jump. Constructive criticism on the other hand is not a bad thing, which many of you need to understand.


So what? The goalie coach, who was the best in the league when hired, was out of line. That's not Burke's fault. Burke fired him.


He doesn't attack the media. The media attacks him. Big difference.


You have a very weird understanding about what facts are.
Wow....

Not even going to try to respond to this post!

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12-02-2012, 11:24 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKsilverstick View Post
Yes, we were, after holding a playoff spot for 2/3 of the season.


We MAY need a #1 goalie, one of 20 players on a team.


We MAY need a #1 center, one of 20 players on a team.


No they haven't. The media has twisted things said into bashing, and the mindless drones jump. Constructive criticism on the other hand is not a bad thing, which many of you need to understand.


So what? The goalie coach, who was the best in the league when hired, was out of line. That's not Burke's fault. Burke fired him.


He doesn't attack the media. The media attacks him. Big difference.


You have a very weird understanding about what facts are.
It's not about the distortion of facts, but the need to push a personal agenda reagardless of the facts presented. This is the norm for this poster, and will continue to be so.

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12-02-2012, 11:47 AM
  #198
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It's not about the distortion of facts, but the need to push a personal agenda reagardless of the facts presented. This is the norm for this poster, and will continue to be so.
LOL.....

I guess what you are saying is that I presented facts.....thanks!

Personal agenda....I do not hide the fact that I dislike Dion....as a hockey player he has a lot to like about him.

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12-02-2012, 12:00 PM
  #199
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I dislike the Liles signing: Concussed and not required as we have a replacement for him already. Trading him would have been more prudent. Grabo I like as a hockey player, but not at that value. The Flounder asset was a young player who was subjected to a moron for a coach and dressing room issues. He will be fine and we will point to this trade as another example of poor asset management.

Franson is a asset who we seriously mishandled last season, we have devalued him as a result. JVR is a soft big body forward, we need big body players who play big, we already have the older version of JVR and are overpaying him to play on our 3rdline.
You don't think it would've been incredibly short-sighted to deem Gardiner a suitable replacement three months into his NHL career?

And it doesn't sound like you've seen much of JVR, because he's far from soft. He's not going to be running anybody over but he's great at using his size to maintain possession of the puck behind the net, which is something we struggled with last season, being more of a "one-and-done" team. Randy Carlyle mentioned this specifically as a problem on a number of occasions, saying that we spent far too much time in our own end of the ice. JVR's not the perfect addition but if nothing else, he'll definitely help on that front.

And while it is a fact that we still lack a #1 center and a #1 goalie, it's also a fact that we lacked just about everything when Burke arrived here. Aside from a #1C, we now have an abundance of top six forwards (including two of the league's top scorers for much of the season) and a pretty respectable d-corps to boot, with one of the best prospect pools in the league as far as defensemen are concerned. Try not to fixate so much on what Burke hasn't done rather than what he has done, especially when the things he hasn't done are in part due to them being insanely difficult to do. Every #1C that has been moved in the last couple of years, Burke has been in on. He made the best offer he could on Brad Richards without handcuffing the team, and it was rumoured that we nearly acquired Mike Richards for Kulemin + Kadri until Holmgren received a similar offer from LA and decided to send him out West instead.


Last edited by Kyle Doobas*: 12-02-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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12-02-2012, 12:18 PM
  #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Tallon is the GM your are thinking about. And he's not the greatest example since there is a large share of team that was there before he arrived that contributed to that playoff birth.

I like Tallon too so that's not a shot at him either and he made some good UFA singings and trades [for the immediate impact] but they were bounced in the first round.

Anything of true value in the Panthers franchise was acquired well before Tallon arrived.
thats not really true at all, he acquired 7 of there top 11 scorers last year including 2/3rds of there top line. aswell as there #1 goalie I would say he had alot to do with those that had the most impact to get this team to the playoffs. he has also drafted most of there better prospects in Huberdeau, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic, Grimaldi. he basically had Weiss, Kulikov, Gudbranson and Markstrom to start from last year and Garrison came out of no where and really wasn't that great other then his goals. he also fired Deboer and brought in Dineen who did an execellent job.

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