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12-02-2012, 12:25 PM
  #201
4evaBlue
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
The issues are Burke himself stated that he would not need 5 years....and he set out to prove it....Trading away draft picks and signing useless free agents to prove it. He put us back another two years in our rebuild as a result. We will not win anything with Phaneuf as our captain as the players will not follow him.

Asset management has been a weak point and that is all we have currently. He signed a concussed D man to a 4 year extension? He signed a 2nd/3rd line center to a 5 million a year contract, while still not having a 1st line center. We lack toughness and trade our most physical D man for a soft forward? We signed a band aid as our number one Center and he played on our 3rd line as a checker for 4.5 million. We take on a contract Lombo because we are getting a young asset and we abuse/mistreat the young asset?

I believe that Burke is desperate and he will make poor decisions as a result. Look at his decisions when he was not desperate. He extended the coach, he build a team that his coach wanted that was contrary to what his own professed beliefs are.....how does this equate to keeping him?
He extended the coach so it wouldn't take away the attention of players from where it was needed. Extension or not, Wilson got canned, the only difference is, the media harpies didn't spend 2 months speculating about it after the extension. Besides, I thought trolling the media with the timing of the extension was hilarious.

I don't believe Burke's any more desperate to just make the playoffs at any cost than he has been so far. I also don't believe that trading away whatever picks he has, or free agent signings set us back 2 years. The majority of his UFA signings are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, and were used to buffer our prospects a bit, and give them time to develop at their own pace, instead of rushing them into the NHL.

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12-02-2012, 12:31 PM
  #202
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Really, Kessel is better than Seguin....there would not be one GM that would make that trade straight up at this point.....never mind tossing in Hamilton.
How well do you think Kessel would have done on the current Bruins roster? How well do you think Seguin would have done on the current Leafs roster? I don't think most GMs would make the trade straight up. Kessel has already established himself as an elite winger in the league, and he did so on a crappy team, receiving double, or triple man coverage on most nights.

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12-02-2012, 12:33 PM
  #203
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thats not really true at all, he acquired 7 of there top 11 scorers last year including 2/3rds of there top line. aswell as there #1 goalie I would say he had alot to do with those that had the most impact to get this team to the playoffs. he has also drafted most of there better prospects in Huberdeau, Bjugstad, Howden, Petrovic, Grimaldi. he basically had Weiss, Kulikov, Gudbranson and Markstrom to start from last year and Garrison came out of no where and really wasn't that great other then his goals. he also fired Deboer and brought in Dineen who did an execellent job.
Yeah that's cool. He drafted a couple of guys who aren't worlds ahead of any Leaf prospects, signed a glut of UFA to fill up his cap and had a #1 goalie for their team... not a true #1 goalie. They still lack a #1 Center and Goalie [although they might have the right prospect] just like Toronto and they also don't have a true #1D man either.

In the context of our argument it's irrelevant. Tallon built a "so far" one off playoff team that doesn't currently have the potential to compete for the Stanley Cup in any serious fashion. And it's a comparison that has no weight since it's such a short term to look at no one knows what those decisions will benefit or further hurt the Panthers franchise.

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12-02-2012, 12:38 PM
  #204
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Yeah that's cool. He drafted a couple of guys who aren't worlds ahead of any Leaf prospects, signed a glut of UFA to fill up his cap and had a #1 goalie for their team... not a true #1 goalie. They still lack a #1 Center and Goalie [although they might have the right prospect] just like Toronto and they also don't have a true #1D man either.

In the context of our argument it's irrelevant. Tallon built a "so far" one off playoff team that doesn't currently have the potential to compete for the Stanley Cup in any serious fashion. And it's a comparison that has no weight since it's such a short term to look at no one knows what those decisions will benefit or further hurt the Panthers franchise.
They also greatly benefited from a very weak division. Put them in any other division, and they're not making the playoffs. The Isles must be real jealous.

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12-02-2012, 12:39 PM
  #205
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How well do you think Kessel would have done on the current Bruins roster? How well do you think Seguin would have done on the current Leafs roster? I don't think most GMs would make the trade straight up. Kessel has already established himself as an elite winger in the league, and he did so on a crappy team, receiving double, or triple man coverage on most nights.
Like I stated previously I do not think again GM would trade Seguin straight up for Kessel... I believe that Seguin is the more valuable asset at this time. As well as the addition of Hamilton and Knight.....

Kessel is a highly skilled one dimensional player who had a coach who allowed him to play that way.....lets see what happens with Carlyle at the helm.

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12-02-2012, 12:44 PM
  #206
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They also greatly benefited from a very weak division. Put them in any other division, and they're not making the playoffs. The Isles must be real jealous.
Florida made the playoffs on merit as they finished with 94 points two more than Washington or Ottawa.

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12-02-2012, 12:48 PM
  #207
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Florida made the playoffs on merit as they finished with 94 points two more than Washington or Ottawa.
Indeed, they barely made the playoffs even though they had the benefit of playing 6 games against the likes of Canes, Jets, Bolts, and the struggling Caps. I believe many teams would have loved to trade schedules with the Panthers.

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12-02-2012, 12:54 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Like I stated previously I do not think again GM would trade Seguin straight up for Kessel... I believe that Seguin is the more valuable asset at this time. As well as the addition of Hamilton and Knight.....

Kessel is a highly skilled one dimensional player who had a coach who allowed him to play that way.....lets see what happens with Carlyle at the helm.

I spoke to Seguin last summer when I interviewed him at BioSteel camp. He credits the Bruin's depth and the stability of that organization, which nurtured his development naturally, for his success today. Had he been thrown into the mix in Toronto, he'd have been Tlusty 2.0 or close to it. Kessel was able to compete right out of the box, and that was a key component to the philosophy behind the deal. Toronto eats it young for breakfast. Seguin would have been under ten times the pressure Kadri has faced, and without a solid core group to insulate him, he'd be damaged goods. The trade made sense, based on that factor alone.

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12-02-2012, 12:56 PM
  #209
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Indeed, they barely made the playoffs even though they had the benefit of playing 6 games against the likes of Canes, Jets, Bolts, and the struggling Caps. I believe many teams would have loved to trade schedules with the Panthers.
Same goes for Ottawa who played both Montreal and the Leafs....both of whom had less points then everyone in Florida's division.

Florida made the playoffs by playing at 500 on the road and a great home record. They were in most every game all season long.

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12-02-2012, 12:58 PM
  #210
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Florida made the playoffs on merit as they finished with 94 points two more than Washington or Ottawa.
Versteeg was a pretty instrumental part of that team's recent success, was he not?

The same Versteeg Burke traded for. Steeger fit the model; young talented and he had a winning record. Prototypical piece of the Burke puzzle. He couldnt get it done here, but that's not Burke's fault. He was traded for what ultimately became Tyler Biggs, who is now tearing it up in the 'Shwa...


Other "bad signings" like Beauchemin led to Joffrey Lupul and Jake Gardiner. I-m gonna go ahead and call that a win.

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12-02-2012, 01:04 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
I spoke to Seguin last summer when I interviewed him at BioSteel camp. He credits the Bruin's depth and the stability of that organization, which nurtured his development naturally, for his success today. Had he been thrown into the mix in Toronto, he'd have been Tlusty 2.0 or close to it. Kessel was able to compete right out of the box, and that was a key component to the philosophy behind the deal. Toronto eats it young for breakfast. Seguin would have been under ten times the pressure Kadri has faced, and without a solid core group to insulate him, he'd be damaged goods. The trade made sense, based on that factor alone.
What are you talking about Willis?

The trade at the time made no sense at all......a rebuilding team simply does not trade away draft picks.

Also just what would you have Seguin say...that I credit my self for my great play....Tlusty 2.0.....what?

So if we do play this year and finish last and get the first overall pick....we should trade it along with our next years first round pick for another player who is a little more mature? That is the the most bizarre reasoning that I have read on here.

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12-02-2012, 01:05 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Like I stated previously I do not think again GM would trade Seguin straight up for Kessel... I believe that Seguin is the more valuable asset at this time. As well as the addition of Hamilton and Knight.....

Kessel is a highly skilled one dimensional player who had a coach who allowed him to play that way.....lets see what happens with Carlyle at the helm.
Kessel is not 1-dimensional, he had 45 assists with one useful player on his line. If he "1-dimensional" then so is Tyler Seguin.

you can believe what you want, but other than the fact that he's younger I don't see how Seguin is better or more valuable. The guy is absolutely ripped but plays just as soft as Kessel. The difference is that Marchand and Bergeron are excellent defensive players whereas Lupul and especially Bozak are not.

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12-02-2012, 01:06 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Yeah that's cool. He drafted a couple of guys who aren't worlds ahead of any Leaf prospects, signed a glut of UFA to fill up his cap and had a #1 goalie for their team... not a true #1 goalie. They still lack a #1 Center and Goalie just like Toronto and they also don't have a true #1D man either.

In the context of our argument it's irrelevant. Tallon built a "so far" one off playoff team that doesn't currently have the potential to compete for the Stanley Cup in any serious fashion. And it's a comparison that has no weight since it's such a short term to look at no one knows what those decisions will benefit or further hurt the Panthers franchise.
it's funny because thats exactly what Burke tried to do when he first got here, signed a few UFA's traded for Kessel and then proclaimed this team had the best Defense in the league and should be able to compete for a playoff spot. it failed miserably. Talon just succeeded at what Burke failed to do.

and it's also funny because every year Burke has made significant changes in the off-season trying to improve this team from adding Beauch, Komi, Kessel, Phaneuf, MacArthur, Versteeg, Armstrong, Franson, Connolly, Lupul, Gardiner, for them to have basically no impact on his team. Burke has tried 3 times, this summer being his 4 try and hasn't had a chance to playout yet, to do what Talon did in his 2nd year and thats make the playoffs. every off-season Burke has gone into with a plan to try and make this team a playoff team yet here we sit having missed in each of his first three full season. what Burke has tried to do and failed Talon succeeded and yet your trying to down play it is hilarious.

and I'm sure your come back will be well Burke didn't want to sacrifice the future of his club while doing it and guess what Talon didn't sacrifice anything as he still has all his best prospects all his picks, and 16 mill in cap space.

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12-02-2012, 01:08 PM
  #214
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it's funny because ...
No because it has nothing to do with the conversation we are trying to have here. Please just consider the context of the conversation first please.

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12-02-2012, 01:09 PM
  #215
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Kessel is not 1-dimensional, he had 45 assists with one useful player on his line. If he "1-dimensional" then so is Tyler Seguin.

you can believe what you want, but other than the fact that he's younger I don't see how Seguin is better or more valuable. The guy is absolutely ripped but plays just as soft as Kessel. The difference is that Marchand and Bergeron are excellent defensive players whereas Lupul and especially Bozak are not.
This is a great video to check out just how underrated Kessel is as a playmaker...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl4XDWKa-bA

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12-02-2012, 01:11 PM
  #216
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Versteeg was a pretty instrumental part of that team's recent success, was he not?

The same Versteeg Burke traded for. Steeger fit the model; young talented and he had a winning record. Prototypical piece of the Burke puzzle. He couldnt get it done here, but that's not Burke's fault. He was traded for what ultimately became Tyler Biggs, who is now tearing it up in the 'Shwa...


Other "bad signings" like Beauchemin led to Joffrey Lupul and Jake Gardiner. I-m gonna go ahead and call that a win.
Versteeg could not get it done here.....really his stats state differently....he had a slow start but was on pace for a good season of about 55 plus points. He was traded because he could not accept the leadership of the team....watch his interview on Leafs TV again.

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12-02-2012, 01:18 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by diceman934 View Post
Versteeg could not get it done here.....really his stats state differently....he had a slow start but was on pace for a good season of about 55 plus points. He was traded because he could not accept the leadership of the team....watch his interview on Leafs TV again.
Actually, he was traded because he couldnt play any position but RW and with Kessel and Kulemin both 30 goal players that season there was no room except on the 3rd line, thereby being overpayed for what he brought to the table. Not to mention, this was a guy who was given up on by 3 teams, not just the leafs, so obviously he isnt instrumental to team success.

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12-02-2012, 01:20 PM
  #218
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Nvm.

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12-02-2012, 01:36 PM
  #219
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That isn't the beef.

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Originally Posted by Durkin67 View Post
I spoke to Seguin last summer when I interviewed him at BioSteel camp. He credits the Bruin's depth and the stability of that organization, which nurtured his development naturally, for his success today. Had he been thrown into the mix in Toronto, he'd have been Tlusty 2.0 or close to it. Kessel was able to compete right out of the box, and that was a key component to the philosophy behind the deal. Toronto eats it young for breakfast. Seguin would have been under ten times the pressure Kadri has faced, and without a solid core group to insulate him, he'd be damaged goods. The trade made sense, based on that factor alone.
[/B]
The compensation was a 1st,2nd and 3rd rounder not 2 firsts.Given our history ,BURKE had no excuse for overpaying a division rival and this team still finished 2nd last.We didn't need a Kessel type and still haven't made the playoffs.The trade is a bust on principle and we still have to wait for the other shoe to drop i.e Hamilton.

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12-02-2012, 01:40 PM
  #220
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Same goes for Ottawa who played both Montreal and the Leafs....both of whom had less points then everyone in Florida's division.

Florida made the playoffs by playing at 500 on the road and a great home record. They were in most every game all season long.
Canes, Jets, Bolts having ended up with 2-4 more points than the Leafs/Habs doesn't make their record significantly better. Pit them up against the Bruins 2 more times a season, and that minor difference is essentially offset.

The difference between a lottery team and a team in a playoff race is really that minor. Had we been able to split the season series against the Bruins (putting us around .500 against NE division), we would have been in a playoff race until the last week or so of the season.

Leafs' record vs their division: 9-14-1 (.396)
Leafs' record outside their division: 26-23-9 (.526)

Panthers' record vs their division: 12-8-4 (.583)
Panthers' record outside their division: 26-18-14 (.569)


Last edited by 4evaBlue: 12-02-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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12-02-2012, 01:45 PM
  #221
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What are you talking about Willis?

The trade at the time made no sense at all......a rebuilding team simply does not trade away draft picks.

Also just what would you have Seguin say...that I credit my self for my great play....Tlusty 2.0.....what?

So if we do play this year and finish last and get the first overall pick....we should trade it along with our next years first round pick for another player who is a little more mature? That is the the most bizarre reasoning that I have read on here.
What's "bizarre", is the unfortunate leaps in logic you are making here.

Seguin's comments were about the controlled evolution he enjoyed, based on the fact that the team didnt have to rush him into undue levels of responsibility. That would certainly have been the case in Toronto. In short, a more mature Kessel IS worth more than a rookie prospect to a weak team who would most certainly be pressured into exposing him prematurely.
Here's what we know:

1. Leafs circa 2008 were pretty much devoid of high end talent. At every level.
2. Toronto has ALWAYS had a propensity to rush and ruin prospects, i.e. former 13th overall pick Jiri Tlusty (Cue predictable arguments about a 13th OA vs a lottery pick).
3. The MLSE mandate Burke accepted upon his hiring was to become competitive and appease/placate corporate partners/season ticket holders
4. Burke agreed, provided he was provided near autonomy to do it his way.
5. High end prospects represent greater value than undetermined draft picks to a team in Toronto's predicament, for reasons described.

Youre sad that Seguin is emerging as a very good player, and that Kessel doesnt play a more "robust" game. I get that. Youre probably sad that Dougie Hamilton isnt a Leaf, either. Me too. I'm also cognizant of the fact that Toronto went 10 seasons and 520 million dollars between 80-point a season players. Kessel was a 30+ goal threat right out of the packaging, regardless of whom he lined up with. He's a heck of an asset, and he either leads in scoring for the remainder of his deal, or he gets dealt for a pretty decent return.

Either way, if youre thinking Seguin in a Toronto uni resembles Seguin in a Bruins uni, I think youre wrong.

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12-02-2012, 01:50 PM
  #222
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Every team in the NHL has a Phil Kessel.

To echo diceman - Sequin is the more valuable asset by himself. Not to mention Hamilton the most highly rated defensive prospect in the WORLD. Its a no-brainer.

The Kessel trade alone is reason to give Burke a failing grade.
Everything else is just spinning wheels.
Were a lottery pick team - hell bent on NOT re-building through the draft.


Can anyone tell me who has been a WORSE GM than Brian Burke over the last 4 years?

Is their any other GM that has taken a team and in 4 years not been able to increase its position in the standings?

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12-02-2012, 01:51 PM
  #223
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[/B]
The compensation was a 1st,2nd and 3rd rounder not 2 firsts.Given our history ,BURKE had no excuse for overpaying a division rival and this team still finished 2nd last.We didn't need a Kessel type and still haven't made the playoffs.The trade is a bust on principle and we still have to wait for the other shoe to drop i.e Hamilton.
Which compensation are you ttalking about? The compensation for Kessel was 2 firsts (2010, 2011) which yielded Tlyer and Hamilton, plus a 2nd, with which BOS drafted Jared Knight.

Only in Toronto does the acquisition of an 80 point talent on a talent-less team equate to a bust.

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12-02-2012, 01:53 PM
  #224
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Every team in the NHL has a Phil Kessel.
Nonsense.

Quote:
To echo diceman - Sequin is the more valuable asset by himself
Why?

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12-02-2012, 01:56 PM
  #225
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Versteeg could not get it done here.....really his stats state differently....he had a slow start but was on pace for a good season of about 55 plus points. He was traded because he could not accept the leadership of the team....watch his interview on Leafs TV again.
Steeger was unable to crack the top 6 in Toronto. It wasn't a good fit. Beauchemin wasnt a good fit either, and these are cup champions, struggling with the pressure! Do You not think it would be 10 times tougher for Seguin?


Last edited by Durkin67: 12-02-2012 at 02:06 PM.
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