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Old
12-04-2012, 07:33 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
If the vast majority of fans are jumping off the roof, you going to join to?

There's no way to objectively and totally isolate good goaltending from a good defensive system. That really comes down to a few weak statistical measurements and opinon based on watching them play. However, in that latter category, you as a Canucks fan simply aren't qualified to comment on James Reimer over somebody who actually follows the team he plays for.

As for Lundqvist, I'm fairly confident in him over Reimer. Part of it is because of his history, part of it is based on watching him play. Agree with my opinion? wonderful. Don't? That's ok too.

However, there's a substantial difference between me as a Leaf fan saying I'd rather have Lundqvist than Reimer than you as a Cancuks fan suggesting the Leafs should take Schneider over Reimer. We as Leafs fans know what's best for our team, and you're simply not qualified to suggest otherwise.
I think your reasoning for discounting my opinion is a bit flawed. I am fairly confident that most Leafs fans would prefer Schneider to Reimer as well. But if your sole reason for disagreeing with the vast majority of hockey fans of all kinds is because you don't agree with using statistics to evaluate goaltenders, and you only trust your own evaluation of watching players and no one else's, then I guess more power to you. Just don't expect many people to agree with you on a forum like HF.

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12-04-2012, 07:37 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think your reasoning for discounting my opinion is a bit flawed. I am fairly confident that most Leafs fans would prefer Schneider to Reimer as well. But if your sole reason for disagreeing with the vast majority of hockey fans of all kinds is because you don't agree with using statistics to evaluate goaltenders, and you only trust your own evaluation of watching players and no one else's, then I guess more power to you. Just don't expect many people to agree with you on a forum like HF.
Yup, you're entitled to an opinion. You seem to think that the transition from backup's games to #1 games is seamless and/or with goaltending swapped for Toronto's, Vancouver would be the 2nd worst defensive team in the league. That's fine, keep Schneider, and for the sake of these boards, stop trying to pawn him off like a used car salesman.

There's nothing wrong with using statistics to evaluate goaltenders, they must however be taken into context.

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12-04-2012, 07:47 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Yup, you're entitled to an opinion. You seem to think that the transition from backup's games to #1 games is seamless and/or with goaltending swapped for Toronto's, Vancouver would be the 2nd worst defensive team in the league. That's fine, keep Schneider, and for the sake of these boards, stop trying to pawn him off like a used car salesman.
I think you're missing the point. It's perfectly fine if you don't agree with my proposal. It's when people start trying to degrade other teams' players that it begins to irk people.

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There's nothing wrong with using statistics to evaluate goaltenders, they must however be taken into context.
How so? If GAA is the only metric you find useful in evaluating a team's overall defense, and there is no real way to seperate the performance of goaltenders and the performance of the defensemen, then there's no way to compare any goaltenders on different teams other than watching them and forming a personal opinion subject to bias.

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12-04-2012, 07:51 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I think you're missing the point. It's perfectly fine if you don't agree with my proposal. It's when people start trying to degrade other teams' players that it begins to irk people.



How so? If GAA is the only metric you find useful in evaluating a team's overall defense, and there is no real way to seperate the performance of goaltenders and the performance of the defensemen, then there's no way to compare any goaltenders on different teams other than watching them and forming a personal opinion subject to bias.
I'm doing nothing to degrade Schneider. He's a great backup goalie. Perhaps you should stop commenting on "No Potential" James Reimer.

GAA and sv% can certainly be used to evaluate goaltenders. They must just be taken into context of the team they are on. Goaltenders contribute substantially to both.

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12-04-2012, 08:03 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'm doing nothing to degrade Schneider. He's a great backup goalie. Perhaps you should stop commenting on "No Potential" James Reimer.
Comparing Schneider to Reimer is degrading, when you have done absolutely nothing to prove there is a comparison to be made other than the fact Reimer is on a bad team.

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GAA and sv% can certainly be used to evaluate goaltenders. They must just be taken into context of the team they are on. Goaltenders contribute substantially to both.
So explain how one does this. Schneider's sv% was .036% higher and his GAA was 1.04 lower. These are huge differences. How much does the goaltender contribute? 50%? You have yet to provide any logical explanation for what might account for such a huge discrepancy, if these goaltenders were truly of similar calibre. Tell us how much goaltending contributes to these stats compared to how much defense contributes to these stats so we can understand your thought process here.

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12-04-2012, 08:06 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Comparing Schneider to Reimer is degrading, when you have done absolutely nothing to prove there is a comparison to be made other than the fact Reimer is on a bad team.



So explain how one does this. Schneider's sv% was .036% higher and his GAA was 1.04 lower. These are huge differences. How much does the goaltender contribute? 50%? You have yet to provide any logical explanation for what might account for such a huge discrepancy, if these goaltenders were truly of similar calibre.
Only by your subjective, one-sided opinion. I could say that calling Schneider a #1 goaltender is degrading #1 goaltenders everywhere (including Reimer), and be just as correct as you.

One explains those numbers with the following: Reimer is his team's #1, Schneider is his team's #2. Reimer plays on a far inferior defensive team, and spent the season recovering from a concussion.

Does that make up the exact difference? more than, or less than? None of us are in a position to specify that.

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12-04-2012, 08:09 PM
  #207
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According to you there's no point to the draft.

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12-04-2012, 08:13 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To Toronto: Schneider, Schroeder
To Vancouver: Gardiner, 1st

To Detroit: Edler
To Vancouver: Filppula, Helm

Toronto gets a goalie and potential top-6C, Detroit gets a beastly defensman, and Vancouver gets a potential beastly defenseman, an established 3C, and a solid top-6 winger(who can play C)
The first deal valuewise is pretty good except more Leafs fans will probably say it leaves their blueline devastated. Even with Schneider in net Vancouver is probably getting a top 10 pick in return. This deal is great for Vancouver. They get a young top 4 d-manan and what will be a decent first rounder. Something they haven't had a shot at in a long time.

Filppula would look good playing on the wing in Vancouver and Helm would do a great job filling in for Malholtra, but this leaves Detroit devastated up front.

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12-04-2012, 08:15 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Only by your subjective, one-sided opinion. I could say that calling Schneider a #1 goaltender is degrading #1 goaltenders everywhere (including Reimer), and be just as correct as you.

One explains those numbers with the following: Reimer is his team's #1, Schneider is his team's #2. Reimer plays on a far inferior defensive team, and spent the season recovering from a concussion.

Does that make up the exact difference? more than, or less than? None of us are in a position to specify that.
But Brian Burke and Mike Gillis are.

Mike Gillis deems Cory Schneider good enough to move his bonafide star, veteran netminder in a time when the Canucks are pushing hard for the Stanley cup, while Burke is aggressively pursuing the goalie that lost his job to Schneider. And he's pursuing him to replace James Reimer...

And that's really all that needs to be said on the matter.

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12-04-2012, 08:19 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Only by your subjective, one-sided opinion. I could say that calling Schneider a #1 goaltender is degrading #1 goaltenders everywhere (including Reimer), and be just as correct as you.

One explains those numbers with the following: Reimer is his team's #1, Schneider is his team's #2. Reimer plays on a far inferior defensive team, and spent the season recovering from a concussion.

Does that make up the exact difference? more than, or less than? None of us are in a position to specify that.
This is what I find frustrating. I can provide statistics to support my opinion.(including the amount of shots allowed on net for each team). For the record, Schneider played more games last year than Reimer did. You do nothing but say "Well, who knows what might happen if the positions were reversed?" Which is a meaningless statement. Maybe if David Steckel played with Backstrom and Semin he might have put up the great seasons that Ovechkin did. It doesn't make it any less ridiculous to compare the players just because one plays on a better team and ignore any statistics that show otherwise.

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12-04-2012, 08:19 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
But Brian Burke and Mike Gillis are.

Mike Gillis deems Cory Schneider good enough to move his bonafide star, veteran netminder in a time when the Canucks are pushing hard for the Stanley cup, while Burke is aggressively pursuing the goalie that lost his job to Schneider. And he's pursuing him to replace James Reimer...

And that's really all that needs to be said on the matter.
No, even they aren't in a position to specify with certainty. Like us, they take their best guess. Gillis may think it's best to move Luongo, and it might come back to bite him if he doesn't get a highly competent backup. Burke may decide to go with Reimer/Scrivens, and it might come back to bite him if Reimer doesn't rebound to rookie form.

Burke has admitted to pursuing a goaltender, there's nothing factual to suggest that he's pursuing Roberto Luongo to replace James Reimer. That's merely speculation on the media's part.

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12-04-2012, 08:21 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
This is what I find frustrating. I can provide statistics to support my opinion.(including the amount of shots allowed on net for each team). For the record, Schneider played more games last year than Reimer did. You do nothing but say "Well, who knows what might happen if the positions were reversed?" Which is a meaningless statement. Maybe if David Steckel played with Backstrom and Semin he might have put up the great seasons that Ovechkin did. It doesn't make it any less ridiculous to compare the players just because one plays on a better team and ignore any statistics that show otherwise.
So which would you like to argue?

That James Reimer is (and has been) his team's #1 goaltender while Cory Schneider has been his team's #2?

That Vancouver does a better job infront of it's goaltenders than Toronto?

That James Reimer suffered a concussion on the 6th game of the season?

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12-04-2012, 08:22 PM
  #213
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The first deal valuewise is pretty good except more Leafs fans will probably say it leaves their blueline devastated. Even with Schneider in net Vancouver is probably getting a top 10 pick in return. This deal is great for Vancouver. They get a young top 4 d-manan and what will be a decent first rounder. Something they haven't had a shot at in a long time.

Filppula would look good playing on the wing in Vancouver and Helm would do a great job filling in for Malholtra, but this leaves Detroit devastated up front.
I don't think it leaves Toronto's blueline devastated, as they still have Gunnarsson and Liles on left D, both of whom are solid top-4 defensemen, as well as numerous defensive prospects jockeying for roster spots.

Similar situation with Detroit, who have Nyquist, Tatar, Jarnkok, all likely NHL ready at this point.

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12-04-2012, 08:33 PM
  #214
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Wouldn't trade Schnieder for the Leafs.

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12-04-2012, 08:34 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
So which would you like to argue?

That James Reimer is (and has been) his team's #1 goaltender while Cory Schneider has been his team's #2?
Well, Gustavsson played more games and posted better numbers than Reimer did last year. And Gustavsson wasn't bothered to be re-signed by the Leafs management. Perhaps that tells you something about the amount of confidence the Leafs have in Reimer being their number 1 moving forward. Meanwhile the Canucks are likely to move their best goalie in franchise history to make room for Schneider. Again, tells you what GMs think about how these goalies project.


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That Vancouver does a better job infront of it's goaltenders than Toronto?
That's possible, but how do you know? Perhaps I can say that Vancouver's defense is putrid and was simply inflated playing in front of Luongo/Schneider, and that if the positions were reversed, Toronto's defense would have done just as well. See what I mean?

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That James Reimer suffered a concussion on the 6th game of the season?
So should we add that Reimer is more injury prone in the list of things Schneider does better at than Reimer as well? How does the fact he sustained an injury somehow work in his favour? Maybe if you were to hypothetically compare a completely healthy Reimer before he had a concussion then you might be right. But that's not the case.

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12-04-2012, 08:41 PM
  #216
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Well, Gustavsson played more games and posted better numbers than Reimer did last year. And Gustavsson wasn't bothered to be re-signed by the Leafs management. Perhaps that tells you something about the amount of confidence the Leafs have in Reimer being their number 1 moving forward. Meanwhile the Canucks are likely to move their best goalie in franchise history to make room for Schneider. Again, tells you what GMs think about how these goalies project.




That's possible, but how do you know? Perhaps I can say that Vancouver's defense is putrid and was simply inflated playing in front of Luongo/Schneider, and that if the positions were reversed, Toronto's defense would have done just as well. See what I mean?



So should we add that Reimer is more injury prone in the list of things Schneider does better at than Reimer as well? How does the fact he sustained an injury somehow work in his favour? Maybe if you were to hypothetically compare a completely healthy Reimer before he had a concussion then you might be right. But that's not the case.
1. That's because Reimer spent 24 games on the IR. He was Toronto's choice substantially more often when they had the choice.

2. I know based on watching the teams, and the fact that you need to have a good defensive system in order to achieve top 4 goaltending, regardless of who's in net. If you disagree, thereby admitting that the Canucks would be just as bad as the Leafs if they swapped goaltending tandems, perhaps some of these Leafs players you keep discrediting are substantially better than you make them out to be.

3. Sure, Reimer might be more injury prone. The fact that he sustained a head injury and saw his performance decline immediately upon returning would suggest that he had some lingering effects. Concussions are known to heal over long periods of time.

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12-04-2012, 08:49 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Burke has admitted to pursuing a goaltender, there's nothing factual to suggest that he's pursuing Roberto Luongo to replace James Reimer. That's merely speculation on the media's part.
Burke said he's looking to upgrade the goaltending position.

Mike Gillis is set to trade the best goalie in franchise history.

Who was better last season, Schneider or Reimer?

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12-04-2012, 08:53 PM
  #218
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Burke said he's looking to upgrade the goaltending position.

Mike Gillis is set to trade the best goalie in franchise history.

Who was better last season, Schneider or Reimer?
Schneider performed better in his role than Reimer did in his. Reimer had a much more difficult and substantial role. The balance of probabilities rests in what a team needs in a goaltender.

The only thing you can conclude from your above statement is that Toronto's goaltending tandem last year was inferior to Vancouver's, which is of course stating the obvious.

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12-04-2012, 09:01 PM
  #219
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1. That's because Reimer spent 24 games on the IR. He was Toronto's choice substantially more often when they had the choice.
So both Reimer and Schneider were a victim of circumstance. Reimer was injured, and Schneider was unable to take the starter job away from the previous season's Vezina finalist(unless you count the playoffs). Expecting either to start more games than their partner is unrealistic. But it's not a point in Reimer's favour.


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2. I know based on watching the teams, and the fact that you need to have a good defensive system in order to achieve top 4 goaltending, regardless of who's in net. If you disagree, thereby admitting that the Canucks would be just as bad as the Leafs if they swapped goaltending tandems, perhaps some of these Leafs players you keep discrediting are substantially better than you make them out to be.
I don't agree, I'm simply trying to follow your logic to its rational conclusion. If your logic is simply "Reimer played on a worse team", and you have yet to show me how much the the team vs the goaltender impact the statistics, then there's no reason to say one explanation over the other(i.e. Vancouver's defense made Schneider look better instead of Schneider made Vancouver's defense look better), except saying "I watch them play". In which case your argument holds little merit with people who also watched Reimer and Schneider play, and can say beyond a reasonable doubt Schneider is the better goalie.

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3. Sure, Reimer might be more injury prone. The fact that he sustained a head injury and saw his performance decline immediately upon returning would suggest that he had some lingering effects. Concussions are known to heal over long periods of time.
So once Reimer starts playing like he did before his concussion, you might say he's comparable to Schneider. Do you think Erik Johnson has the same value after sustaining his injury? One can't just assume injuries won't do anything to derail a career.

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12-04-2012, 09:01 PM
  #220
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According to you there's no point to the draft.
Draft order rankings are all bias opinions. Nobody really has potential because stats and past accomplishments mean nothing.

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12-04-2012, 09:10 PM
  #221
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I'd rather Schneider than Reimer.


Take away the names from the discussion and just assume that these are two young goalies.

Goalie 1
NHL(Reg) 2011-2012: 33 GS 1.96 GAA .937 SV%; Playoffs 3 GS 1.31 GAA .960 SV%

vs.

Goalie 2
NHL(Reg) 2011-2012 34 GS 3.10 GAA .900 SV; Playoffs (NA)

---
I consider myself a pretty big hockey fan, and I've been more impressed, in my admittedly limited, viewings of Schneider. Vancouver should dump "Leaky" Roberto Luongo and start Schneider full-time in my opinion.

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12-04-2012, 09:10 PM
  #222
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So both Reimer and Schneider were a victim of circumstance. Reimer was injured, and Schneider was unable to take the starter job away from the previous season's Vezina finalist(unless you count the playoffs). Expecting either to start more games than their partner is unrealistic. But it's not a point in Reimer's favour.




I don't agree, I'm simply trying to follow your logic to its rational conclusion. If your logic is simply "Reimer played on a worse team", and you have yet to show me how much the the team vs the goaltender impact the statistics, then there's no reason to say one explanation over the other(i.e. Vancouver's defense made Schneider look better instead of Schneider made Vancouver's defense look better), except saying "I watch them play". In which case your argument holds little merit with people who also watched Reimer and Schneider play, and can say beyond a reasonable doubt Schneider is the better goalie.



So once Reimer starts playing like he did before his concussion, you might say he's comparable to Schneider. Do you think Erik Johnson has the same value after sustaining his injury? One can't just assume injuries won't do anything to derail a career.
Schneider is hardly a victim. Being insulated from your team's biggest games isn't likely to adversely affect your stats. When the teams had a choice between goaltenders, Reimer was his team's choice substantially more than Schneider. That's simply a fact.

So here's a simple question for you, if you swap Toronto's goaltending last year with Vancouver's, are the Canucks the 2nd worst defensive team in the league? So which is it? Are the Canucks skaters just as bad at the Leafs when it comes to keeping puck out of their net, or is part of Luongo/Schneider's superior stats due to playing on a better team? If it's the former, perhaps you are best off keeping Luongo.

If Reimer recovers fully to his post concussion form, he's quite easily better than Schneider. He's a ~.920 starting goaltender on one of the worst defensive teams in the league as compared to a ~.930 backup. If Reimer recovers to his career average (.911), it's a tough call, but likely the edge to Reimer, in my opinion.

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12-04-2012, 09:21 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Schneider is hardly a victim. Being insulated from your team's biggest games isn't likely to adversely affect your stats. When the teams had a choice between goaltenders, Reimer was his team's choice substantially more than Schneider. That's simply a fact.
If by biggest games, you mean the playoffs(against the Stanley Cup Champions...?)

Quote:
So here's a simple question for you, if you swap Toronto's goaltending last year with Vancouver's, are the Canucks the 2nd worst defensive team in the league? So which is it? Are the Canucks skaters just as bad at the Leafs when it comes to keeping puck out of their net, or is part of Luongo/Schneider's superior stats due to playing on a better team? If it's the former, perhaps you are best off keeping Luongo.
I told you I am simply following your thought process. According to you, goaltending does play a part in the team's overall defense. So why assume that the entire difference is because of defense and not in the calibre of goaltending instead of the other way around, when comparing two teams? Either extreme is absurd, in my opinion. Schneider in Toronto would likely put up around a .920 sv% on a consistent basis. But that's only my opinion.

Quote:
If Reimer recovers fully to his post concussion form, he's quite easily better than Schneider. He's a ~.920 starting goaltender on one of the worst defensive teams in the league as compared to a ~.930 backup. If Reimer recovers to his career average (.911), it's a tough call.
That's funny because the most games Reimer has ever started in a season(37) is only one more than the most Schneider has(36).

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12-04-2012, 09:26 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by 2MGoBlue2 View Post
I'd rather Schneider than Reimer.


Take away the names from the discussion and just assume that these are two young goalies.

Goalie 1
NHL(Reg) 2011-2012: 33 GS 1.96 GAA .937 SV%; Playoffs 3 GS 1.31 GAA .960 SV%

vs.

Goalie 2
NHL(Reg) 2011-2012 34 GS 3.10 GAA .900 SV; Playoffs (NA)

---
I consider myself a pretty big hockey fan, and I've been more impressed, in my admittedly limited, viewings of Schneider. Vancouver should dump "Leaky" Roberto Luongo and start Schneider full-time in my opinion.
I'd love to see someone try to argue against those facts.

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12-04-2012, 09:45 PM
  #225
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If by biggest games, you mean the playoffs(against the Stanley Cup Champions...?)



I told you I am simply following your thought process. According to you, goaltending does play a part in the team's overall defense. So why assume that the entire difference is because of defense and not in the calibre of goaltending instead of the other way around, when comparing two teams? Either extreme is absurd, in my opinion. Schneider in Toronto would likely put up around a .920 sv% on a consistent basis. But that's only my opinion.



That's funny because the most games Reimer has ever started in a season(37) is only one more than the most Schneider has(36).
I mean biggest games over the course of an 82 game regular season.

I'm not assuming that the entire difference is because of the skaters defensive play. I'm assuming that both superior goaltending and superior defensive play contribute to an overall successful defence. Your opinion is that Schneider in Toronto would put up a .920, so you admit that part of the reason Schneider has superior numbers is because he plays on a better team.... shouldn't have been this difficult. Now take away the luxury of being his team's #2 goalie, and instead having only Jonas Gustavsson as a backup, and that number continues to drop.

That's funny because Reimer has played basically 85% of the frequency of a 65 game goaltender over the duration of his career, while Schneider has played less than half that.

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