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Just how Dynamic was our Duo?

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Old
11-29-2012, 10:06 PM
  #1
Hero
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Just how Dynamic was our Duo?

Was curious to see just how good our duo of Lupul/Kessel was last season in comparison to other pairs around in the league.

The Competition

Malkin/Neal
Stamkos/St. Louis
Giroux/Hartnell
Kovalchuk/Elias
Tavares/Moulson
Zetterberg/Datsyuk

Other famous pairs, such as the Sedin's and Getz/Perry had some off years or injury plagued years.

In Points Per Game

Malkin 1.45 Neal 1.01 = 2.46
Stamkos 1.18 St. Louis 0.96 = 2.14
Kovalchuk 1.08 Elias 0.96 = 2.04
Giroux 1.21 Hartnell 0.82 = 2.03
Kessel 1.00 Lupul 1.02 = 2.02
Tavares 0.99 Moulson 0.84 = 1.83
Zetterberg 0.84 Datsyuk 0.96 = 1.80

When it came to putting up points, they were one of the leagues top 5 pairs, and just a hair off from 3rd place.

Goals Per Game

Malkin 0.67 Neal 0.50 = 1.17
Stamkos 0.73 St. Louis 0.32 = 0.95
Kessel 0.45 Lupul 0.38 = 0.83
Tavares 0.38 Moulson 0.44 = 0.82
Giroux 0.36 Hartnell 0.45 = 0.81
Kovalchuk 0.48 Elias 0.32 = 0.80
Zetterberg 0.27 Datsyuk 0.27 = 0.54

When looking at goals, you can see outside from a team that has one of Malkin or Stamkos, Lupul and Kessel had the best scoring rate in the league, with NYI, PHI and NJD pairs being a hair behind.

Now defensively these two had a weak plus/minus, somehow they managed to be a combined -9 even though they put up so many points. Other pairs doing worse in this category are NJD with -17 between the two. Tavares with -6 and MSL with -1 being the only other minus guys we compared.

Now to be fair the Leafs are a much weaker team than Det, Phi, Pit, one that has a much lower overall +/-, and also seeing how NJD NYI and TBL players were also in the minus, this probably has to do more with a team game than anything.

All in all, Lupul/Kessel were top 3 or top 5 in the leagues as scoring pairs, and probably weren't as bad defensively compared to other elite pairs either.

Now the question is can these two repeat these numbers? If so having both a 29 yr old 1st line PPG LW and a 25 yr old 1st line PPG RW, means were set on our 1st line wings for the next 5-6 years, till regression hits Lupul. If we can give these two a 1st line C to play with, it could help these two maintain there stats.

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11-29-2012, 11:21 PM
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Looks like they split the load pretty evenly between themselves, too. That could be a good or bad thing, depending on how much faith you have in Joffrey "Typo" Lupul.

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11-29-2012, 11:27 PM
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Interesting look at the stats, but just thought you should know that Kovi + Elias didn't play together much.
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...+9+11+13+15+17

Same goes for Datsyuk and Zetterberg
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_time_...+9+11+13+15+17


All of them are very important pieces to their respective teams, no doubt about that. But since they don't play the majority of their time with each I wouldn't call them duos personally.

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11-30-2012, 12:01 AM
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They were pretty good.

Just need the team around them to keep getting better.

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11-30-2012, 01:14 AM
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they were leading the league at one point

good old lups

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:58 AM
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I enjoy your threads man.

Kessel is a fantastic player. His play making is massively underrated, and IMO if you put him with any sort of goal scorer, he'll rack up serious points. Lupul opened up some space for Phil, which nobody had done for him on the Leafs, and they both flourished.

But unless they can pick up their defensive game (a defensive system will help), they may have to be separated.

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11-30-2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
Was curious to see just how good our duo of Lupul/Kessel was last season in comparison to other pairs around in the league.

The Competition

Malkin/Neal
Stamkos/St. Louis
Giroux/Hartnell
Kovalchuk/Elias
Tavares/Moulson
Zetterberg/Datsyuk

Other famous pairs, such as the Sedin's and Getz/Perry had some off years or injury plagued years.

In Points Per Game

Malkin 1.45 Neal 1.01 = 2.46
Stamkos 1.18 St. Louis 0.96 = 2.14
Kovalchuk 1.08 Elias 0.96 = 2.04
Giroux 1.21 Hartnell 0.82 = 2.03
Kessel 1.00 Lupul 1.02 = 2.02
Tavares 0.99 Moulson 0.84 = 1.83
Zetterberg 0.84 Datsyuk 0.96 = 1.80

When it came to putting up points, they were one of the leagues top 5 pairs, and just a hair off from 3rd place.

Goals Per Game

Malkin 0.67 Neal 0.50 = 1.17
Stamkos 0.73 St. Louis 0.32 = 0.95
Kessel 0.45 Lupul 0.38 = 0.83
Tavares 0.38 Moulson 0.44 = 0.82
Giroux 0.36 Hartnell 0.45 = 0.81
Kovalchuk 0.48 Elias 0.32 = 0.80
Zetterberg 0.27 Datsyuk 0.27 = 0.54

When looking at goals, you can see outside from a team that has one of Malkin or Stamkos, Lupul and Kessel had the best scoring rate in the league, with NYI, PHI and NJD pairs being a hair behind.

Now defensively these two had a weak plus/minus, somehow they managed to be a combined -9 even though they put up so many points. Other pairs doing worse in this category are NJD with -17 between the two. Tavares with -6 and MSL with -1 being the only other minus guys we compared.

Now to be fair the Leafs are a much weaker team than Det, Phi, Pit, one that has a much lower overall +/-, and also seeing how NJD NYI and TBL players were also in the minus, this probably has to do more with a team game than anything.

All in all, Lupul/Kessel were top 3 or top 5 in the leagues as scoring pairs, and probably weren't as bad defensively compared to other elite pairs either.

Now the question is can these two repeat these numbers? If so having both a 29 yr old 1st line PPG LW and a 25 yr old 1st line PPG RW, means were set on our 1st line wings for the next 5-6 years, till regression hits Lupul. If we can give these two a 1st line C to play with, it could help these two maintain there stats.
Great numbers for both. But make no mistake its all Kessel.

Go on youtube and look at a video of all of Lupul's goals. ITS ALL PHIL KESSEL!

Kessel is not only an elite sniper, but one of the higher echelon play-makers.

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11-30-2012, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
Great numbers for both. But make no mistake its all Kessel.

Go on youtube and look at a video of all of Lupul's goals. ITS ALL PHIL KESSEL!

Kessel is not only an elite sniper, but one of the higher echelon play-makers.
Lupul does more than his share on the line. He does a lot of the board work and goes to the net for tips/rebounds etc. I have very little doubt that without Lupul, Kessel doesn't become a PPG player last season.

I agree that it's mostly Kessel, but Lupul buys him a lot more time out there than any other linemate.



Disclaimer: This post contains my personal opinion based on observing their chemistry during games, with no quantifiable proof to back it up.

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11-30-2012, 11:44 AM
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I don't think it's fair to exclude Jagr's contributions to his line. Giroux, and Hartnell don't qualify as a dynamic duo in my eyes.

Disclaimer: This post contains my personal opinion based on the amount of icetime the dynamic trio's received together, as well as on the 15 or so Flyers games I've watched last season.

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11-30-2012, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
I don't think it's fair to exclude Jagr's contributions to his line. Giroux, and Hartnell don't qualify as a dynamic duo in my eyes.

Disclaimer: This post contains my personal opinion based on the amount of icetime the dynamic trio's received together, as well as on the 15 or so Flyers games I've watched last season.
Nice touch with the disclaimer, can I borrow it?

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Old
11-30-2012, 12:01 PM
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Offensively Kessel and Lupul match up just fine. But for overall impact on the game if they're the two best forwards on the team we're in trouble.

Bottom line is this team desperately needs a # 1 center.

As much I like what Lupul did this past season tying up big money in him long term has the potential to be a very bad move for the team cause it could take away from cap space that could be applied towards center, D and goaltending.

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11-30-2012, 12:13 PM
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Nice touch with the disclaimer, can I borrow it?
Ha. Figured I may as well try to protect myself in case some people have a hard time telling the difference between opinions and facts.

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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Offensively Kessel and Lupul match up just fine. But for overall impact on the game if they're the two best forwards on the team we're in trouble.

Bottom line is this team desperately needs a # 1 center.

As much I like what Lupul did this past season tying up big money in him long term has the potential to be a very bad move for the team cause it could take away from cap space that could be applied towards center, D and goaltending.
Sure, a #1C would help, but having a coach who will do his best to keep the line away from the Charas of the league, and will not engage in best line vs best line pond hockey should help their defensive and offensive game a lot.

Having some secondary scoring, who can keep some of the pressure off the Kessel line on a regular basis could further increase the line's effectiveness. Hopefully the development of Kadri, and the acquisition of JVR can provide that.

Disclaimer: This post is purely speculation, and makes no attempt to prove any claims.

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11-30-2012, 12:19 PM
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Ha. Figured I may as well try to protect myself in case some people have a hard time telling the difference between opinions and facts.
I had someone accuse me that my opinion based on facts was unfactual this morning.

I need a disclaimer, great idea.

Disclaimer, my opinions based on facts should not be confused as not facts It's a fact.

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11-30-2012, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 4evaBlue View Post
Ha. Figured I may as well try to protect myself in case some people have a hard time telling the difference between opinions and facts.



Sure, a #1C would help, but having a coach who will do his best to keep the line away from the Charas of the league, and will not engage in best line vs best line pond hockey should help their defensive and offensive game a lot.

Having some secondary scoring, who can keep some of the pressure off the Kessel line on a regular basis could further increase the line's effectiveness. Hopefully the development of Kadri, and the acquisition of JVR can provide that.

Disclaimer: This post is purely speculation, and makes no attempt to prove any claims.
Everybody loves to throw Wilson under the bus and he certainly did make his fair share of mistakes. But he was also never given a lot to work with. Wilson never had good goaltending well he was here, our best 3 forwards in Kessel, Lupul and Grabo weren't ever regarded as good defensively (Wilson did make Grabo average for a 2nd liner though) and he also only ever had Phaneuf as a top pairing quality who was a reclaimation project for a good portion of Wilsons tenure.

Carlyles recent resume for goals against. 10/11 Ducks: 10th last in the league. 09/10 Ducks: 8th last in the league.

Caryles best defensive seasons were with Pronger and Nieds both on the blueline. Was that because Caryle was such a great defensive coach or because he simply had two hall of fame Dmen?

Disclaimer: My posts are always facts because I'm always right.

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11-30-2012, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero View Post
Was curious to see just how good our duo of Lupul/Kessel was last season in comparison to other pairs around in the league.

The Competition

Malkin/Neal
Stamkos/St. Louis
Giroux/Hartnell
Kovalchuk/Elias
Tavares/Moulson
Zetterberg/Datsyuk

Other famous pairs, such as the Sedin's and Getz/Perry had some off years or injury plagued years.

In Points Per Game

Malkin 1.45 Neal 1.01 = 2.46
Stamkos 1.18 St. Louis 0.96 = 2.14
Kovalchuk 1.08 Elias 0.96 = 2.04
Giroux 1.21 Hartnell 0.82 = 2.03
Kessel 1.00 Lupul 1.02 = 2.02
Tavares 0.99 Moulson 0.84 = 1.83
Zetterberg 0.84 Datsyuk 0.96 = 1.80

When it came to putting up points, they were one of the leagues top 5 pairs, and just a hair off from 3rd place.

Goals Per Game

Malkin 0.67 Neal 0.50 = 1.17
Stamkos 0.73 St. Louis 0.32 = 0.95
Kessel 0.45 Lupul 0.38 = 0.83
Tavares 0.38 Moulson 0.44 = 0.82
Giroux 0.36 Hartnell 0.45 = 0.81
Kovalchuk 0.48 Elias 0.32 = 0.80
Zetterberg 0.27 Datsyuk 0.27 = 0.54

When looking at goals, you can see outside from a team that has one of Malkin or Stamkos, Lupul and Kessel had the best scoring rate in the league, with NYI, PHI and NJD pairs being a hair behind.

Now defensively these two had a weak plus/minus, somehow they managed to be a combined -9 even though they put up so many points. Other pairs doing worse in this category are NJD with -17 between the two. Tavares with -6 and MSL with -1 being the only other minus guys we compared.

Now to be fair the Leafs are a much weaker team than Det, Phi, Pit, one that has a much lower overall +/-, and also seeing how NJD NYI and TBL players were also in the minus, this probably has to do more with a team game than anything.

All in all, Lupul/Kessel were top 3 or top 5 in the leagues as scoring pairs, and probably weren't as bad defensively compared to other elite pairs either.

Now the question is can these two repeat these numbers? If so having both a 29 yr old 1st line PPG LW and a 25 yr old 1st line PPG RW, means were set on our 1st line wings for the next 5-6 years, till regression hits Lupul. If we can give these two a 1st line C to play with, it could help these two maintain there stats.
They shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the others, they only played Offense and were a minus. Their stats should be evaluated after Carlye took over and that should be the guide line of what we can expect if this season ever starts.

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Old
11-30-2012, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
Great numbers for both. But make no mistake its all Kessel.

Go on youtube and look at a video of all of Lupul's goals. ITS ALL PHIL KESSEL!

Kessel is not only an elite sniper, but one of the higher echelon play-makers.
While I agree that Kessel is definitly the more gifted of the duo, saying it was "all Kessel" is wrong. Kessel feeds off Lupul just as Lupul feeds off Kessel. Yes Lupul's point totals will drop without Kessel around but the same holds true for Phil...did you take note of how Kessel's point totals fell off after Lupul was injured?

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11-30-2012, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
Great numbers for both. But make no mistake its all Kessel.

Go on youtube and look at a video of all of Lupul's goals. ITS ALL PHIL KESSEL!

Kessel is not only an elite sniper, but one of the higher echelon play-makers.
it bothers me when people say this because kessel sets up bozak just as much and he doesn't put it in the net. we need another finisher and lupul is that, everyone puts him down but he was probably our best forward last year (and other have agreed with me). Kessel is great but he needs players like lupul who just finish.

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11-30-2012, 02:08 PM
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While I agree that Kessel is definitly the more gifted of the duo, saying it was "all Kessel" is wrong. Kessel feeds off Lupul just as Lupul feeds off Kessel. Yes Lupul's point totals will drop without Kessel around but the same holds true for Phil...did you take note of how Kessel's point totals fell off after Lupul was injured?
They definitely complimented each other though I think it would be fair to say that Lupul has benefitted more from Kessel than Kessel has with Lupul. Keeping things in perspective, on how many teams would Lupul have the opportunity to play with a guy like Kessel? On the flip side, Kessel on any other team could have a Lupul (or even better) if such a player was available to pair him up with. What I'm trying to say is that it would easier for Kessel to replace Lupul than for Lupul to replace Kessel, realistically speaking. I'm in no way trying to diminish Lupul's talent or achievements on the Leafs as I am a fan and I would prefer to see him sign an extension with the Leafs (though I'm not interested in seeing Lupul or any other player being committed to a very lengthy term at too high a price tag).

Truthfully, between the teams demise at the end of last season, a potentially lost season that sends Lupul to UFA without knowing how real a deal he is with the Leafs and former coach Carlyle coming into the fray, I'm not sure how much of a chance the Leafs have in resigning him. I would hope that he takes into consideration how much being a Leafs has put him on the map - among fans and especially on the ice. His talent is his own accomplishment, but he wouldn't have gotten the recognition he did if it weren't for a team willing to believe in him and give him the opportunity to prove that he has what it takes to be an impact player in this league.

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11-30-2012, 02:46 PM
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Everybody loves to throw Wilson under the bus and he certainly did make his fair share of mistakes. But he was also never given a lot to work with. Wilson never had good goaltending well he was here, our best 3 forwards in Kessel, Lupul and Grabo weren't ever regarded as good defensively (Wilson did make Grabo average for a 2nd liner though) and he also only ever had Phaneuf as a top pairing quality who was a reclaimation project for a good portion of Wilsons tenure.
He didn't have an All-Star lineup, but he had a team good enough to not end up in a lottery position (mostly due to the dreadful PK, and defense). There are coaches around the league who have achieved more with less. Wilson's biggest flaw forcing his style on players without even considering their strengths, and weaknesses. It's no coincidence that all our defensive defensemen have suffered over the past 3-4 years.

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Carlyles recent resume for goals against. 10/11 Ducks: 10th last in the league. 09/10 Ducks: 8th last in the league.
Even with his star goalie not having such a hot season last year, his team finished around the middle of the pack (when considering GA/G, and not ranking) with arguably worse blue line than the Leafs have. He's even turned the "useless" Beauchamin into a reliable defensemen.
'10-'11
Rank
Team
GA/G
15Dallas2.76
20Anaheim2.84
25Toronto2.99

'11-'12
Rank
Team
GA/G
15Colorado2.66
19Anaheim2.73
29Toronto3.16

I'm not expecting him to work miracles, just to start identifying, and using using players' strengths, while attempting to shelter their weaknesses.

As we've seen at the end of last season, he will also let his players know what he expects out of them, and will talk to them during the game to attempt to correct their mistakes while they're still fresh in the player's mind. As entertaining as some of his post-game pressers may have been, communication with his players didn't seem to be one of Wilson's strengths.

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Caryles best defensive seasons were with Pronger and Nieds both on the blueline. Was that because Caryle was such a great defensive coach or because he simply had two hall of fame Dmen?
Sure, having two hall of famers on your blueline will help your cause, but he's done reasonably well with what he had since then.

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11-30-2012, 02:48 PM
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it bothers me when people say this because kessel sets up bozak just as much and he doesn't put it in the net. we need another finisher and lupul is that, everyone puts him down but he was probably our best forward last year (and other have agreed with me). Kessel is great but he needs players like lupul who just finish.
Not only that, but he is willing to take the punishment in front of the net, and has excellent hand-eye. A few of his goals came from tip-ins, baseball swings, and finding the rebounds around the net faster than the goalie/defenders. Kessel benefited greatly from having Lupul on his line.

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11-30-2012, 05:13 PM
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Lupul is one of the victims of the strike.

Lupul had a fantastic year.I like Lupul.If the season is cancelled,I would not resign him for big bucks.He was a man on a mission last year and I highly doubt he can replicate the ppg.$4 million is fair price,if he wants more say $5 million on a long term deal,I am afraid to say,I would let him walk and go looking for a replacement.

We have all seen one hit wonders get their money and fade.

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11-30-2012, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by 81Leafs50 View Post
Great numbers for both. But make no mistake its all Kessel.

Go on youtube and look at a video of all of Lupul's goals. ITS ALL PHIL KESSEL!

Kessel is not only an elite sniper, but one of the higher echelon play-makers.
Its not all kessel or all lupul. Its both of them and their chemistry together that makes them "dynamic". They feed off each other well.

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11-30-2012, 08:35 PM
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Forget the statistics for a sec..

I watched almost all our games last year and Lupul and Kessel looked soft and ineffective vs. good teams and good top 2 defenders... In fact I remember one game vs. Chicago where they were hugely exposed and it was laughable at points, Kessel at points reminding me of Jason Blake and Lupul as Nikolas Hagman....

When the rating of top 2 pairs in the league comes to question, stats like ppg and such don't mean much. I think the relative measure is the unquantifiable things like in this case where the leafs played open ice hockey in an inconsistent eastern conference with an easiar 82 schedule and also that Lupul and Kessel played a riskier offensive game which compromises defense.

Anyways that's my 2 cents

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11-30-2012, 08:41 PM
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Forget the statistics for a sec..

I watched almost all our games last year and Lupul and Kessel looked soft and ineffective vs. good teams and good top 2 defenders... In fact I remember one game vs. Chicago where they were hugely exposed and it was laughable at points, Kessel at points reminding me of Jason Blake and Lupul as Nikolas Hagman....

When the rating of top 2 pairs in the league comes to question, stats like ppg and such don't mean much. I think the relative measure is the unquantifiable things like in this case where the leafs played open ice hockey in an inconsistent eastern conference with an easiar 82 schedule and also that Lupul and Kessel played a riskier offensive game which compromises defense.

Anyways that's my 2 cents
Can you clarify what you mean by this?

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11-30-2012, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by draeko17 View Post
Can you clarify what you mean by this?
The leafs (in this case Lupul and Kessel) are in more games where open ice hockey is played, and in these games more pucks go in the net because thats the style.. so its easiar to have more points for kessel and Lupul... this is important because a lot of better top duo's play in more cluttered space games where less goals are scored and put similar numbers to Lupul and Kessel with better defensive play.. sry for the confusion

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