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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Contraction a necessary evil for survival of NHL says economist

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Old
12-02-2012, 11:58 PM
  #251
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Sorry, how are they a good market ? Have they made any profit in 14 years ? If the subsidy from thr city or the league goes away what happens? They are in a market with two rinks and no outdoor ice which means that their continued success relies exclusively on people who have never played the game or transplants ?

I have no problem with any team getting a helping hand, including ottawa and canadian teams, but those teams wont be on this support forever.
I certainly hope that a fan of any Canadian team not named the Leafs, Senators and Canadiens isn't complaining about American squads being propped up by tax dollars? (and TBPH, I'm not even actually sure about those 3, just that they're the ones that don't have an obvious subsidy)

Without a subsidy, the Jets break even or lose money, even in the honeymoon year. Time to contract the Jets before this gets out of hand, because without the subsidy it surely will. I know the Oilers' profit margins total less than the subsidies they get from Edmondton too, according to anything I've read recently.

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12-03-2012, 12:00 AM
  #252
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You seem to be assuming that a non-hockey fan will never be made into a hockey fan.

About the only difference between a Canadian hockey fan, and an American sports fan who doesn't give much of a hoot about hockey, is that a lot of the groundwork has already been done to convince the Canadian fan to spend his entertainment dollars on hockey. That hardly means it can't be done in the south, just that it hasn't yet.
There is a big difference between a hockey fan and an nhl fan. Good luck having a persistent fans base in areas where 0.1 to 0.01% of the fans have ever played.

How many teams could support a nba team if they outlawed the sale of basketballs?

Ok, so it hasnt been done yet. So when is the cutoff ? If in 10 years the preds are in the same position they are now, what then ?

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12-03-2012, 12:02 AM
  #253
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But you don't have unlimited time, the rest of the league is not going to prop you up for the next two or three decades so that you go from 3000 registered players to 5000.
Say what?! Nashville & Tennessee's got all the time in the world. Like a lazy summer day in Moore County. The arena is profitable, their finally after a decade of nonsense icing a decent team, franchise is gaining steam, they'll be just fine. All the time in the world sandy. Aint goin nowhere, and yes, eventually, slowly, registration at the amateur levels will grow. There is no "Deadline" in forever.

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Revenue sharing should be to help shore up teams temporarily. When do you anticipate that non traditional southern markets will get off revenue sharing from established markets? Is 30 years enough?
Who cares when they get off it? Its not money out of your pocket.

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I hope that nasville makes a run of it, but the first 14 years are not fantastically promising.... Edmonton had supported a horrible but young team so the notion that early success is enough to cement a new team, you want to explain tampa bay ?
Read up on the franchises history of intransigent bordering on diabolical ownership over the past 14yrs, understand theyve turned the corner, forget the past already.... while comparing Nashville, Carolina, Florida, Phoenix or anywhere in the States beyond the Northeast to the Edmonton fan base, multiple Cups & a glorious history in the hockey cradle of Canada an entirely specious argument.... and why? Whats up in Tampa? Seems to me last report I read was the fans down there are in the midst of a brand new love affair with the Bolts and their new owner.

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12-03-2012, 12:05 AM
  #254
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Sorry, how are they a good market ? Have they made any profit in 14 years ? If the subsidy from thr city or the league goes away what happens? They are in a market with two rinks and no outdoor ice which means that their continued success relies exclusively on people who have never played the game or transplants ?

I have no problem with any team getting a helping hand, including ottawa and canadian teams, but those teams wont be on this support forever.
I think you are reading way too much into the whole "two rinks" thing. Sure there might only be two rinks in Nashville, where a lot of businesses are, but there are rinks in a lot of smaller towns in middle Tennesee, even if they are roller rinks. So there could be two in Nashville, but thirty minutes away there is a roller hockey rink in Spring Hill, Bellevue, Cool Springs, etc.

And I can state for a fact that we don't solely rely on transplants to fill the rink. Early on when the novelty wore off sure, but now we are seeing more natives becoming fans.

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12-03-2012, 12:06 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I certainly hope that a fan of any Canadian team not named the Leafs, Senators and Canadiens isn't complaining about American squads being propped up by tax dollars? (and TBPH, I'm not even actually sure about those 3, just that they're the ones that don't have an obvious subsidy)

Without a subsidy, the Jets break even or lose money, even in the honeymoon year. Time to contract the Jets before this gets out of hand, because without the subsidy it surely will.
The sens declared bankruptcy, the canucks are stable and if you want to compare the municipal tax bills of teams like the habs against anyone, im game.

Are you seriously comparing the jets to the preds? The jets were top 10 in revenues and have a huge waiting list for sth, they dont paper seats. After 15 years waiting for them to come back.

Jets fans are no better than preds fans, but their market sure as hell is.

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12-03-2012, 12:06 AM
  #256
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You're right, there is a difference between a hockey fan and an NHL fan.

The real significance of that difference seems to be eluding you though.

The fact is that you don't have to have played pond hockey as a kid to appreciate a fast-paced, hard-hitting game when you see it. Hockey might be the best television sport in the world when done right. Anyone who is openminded enough to appreciate a watchable sports experience can learn to enjoy watching NHL hockey and the more fans you expose the televised game the more of that kind of fan you're going to get.

The fact is that the very point you're making is exactly WHY you can't market the NHL to JUST hockey fans. You've got a perfect sport to appeal to the armchair athlete, you just need to go out and convince them it's worth watching and you're halfway there.

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12-03-2012, 12:09 AM
  #257
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I usually try to stay out of these bash the south/non-traditional/small markets crapfests, but I thought I'd chime in tonight.

Why the heck does anyone care if there's a team in a city you will never watch, never visit, never pay any attention to?

Does a hockey fan in Toronto die every time Nashville plays Anaheim and only 15k people are there to see it?

Do you big marketers really think that your ticket prices are going to go down if Florida didn't exist?

You don't think there would be lockouts or strikes if they didn't have small markets? I've got news for you - the NFL makes a bazillion dollars, screws it's labor force royally, and they still have work stoppages to fight over every single penny.


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12-03-2012, 12:09 AM
  #258
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The sens declared bankruptcy, the canucks are stable and if you want to compare the municipal tax bills of teams like the habs against anyone, im game.

Are you seriously comparing the jets to the preds? The jets were top 10 in revenues and have a huge waiting list for sth, they dont paper seats. After 15 years waiting for them to come back.

Jets fans are no better than preds fans, but their market sure as hell is.
You're dancing all around my point. The Predators are filling their barn too. And it's a bigger barn.

The Jets are subsidized. The Preds are subsidized. The Jets are considered small to midmarket, so are the Preds. The Jets fill their barn when the fanbase is pumped and excited about the future, and so, we have learned recently, do the Predators. I guess I'm just seeing two similar markets here and wondering where all that magical Canadianness is that's supposed to make the Jets a guaranteed success and Nashville a contraction candidate.

There's nothing special about Canadians. If a town takes it into their heads to love a team, south or north, regardless of sport, that town will fill the barn.

Tennessee had a little trouble getting used to the NHL, not because it's not a good hockey market, but because it's a college sports culture, and the NHL's culture is different, If they're filling the barn, then they're doing better than the Titans most years, and most of the battle is won. Unless something goes seriously wrong in the next few years that market should be stable going forward.

And either way, you don't do the NHL any favors by looking down on Southern fans when they DO show up. That kind of snobbery is useless, and it does damage.

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12-03-2012, 12:11 AM
  #259
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I think you are reading way too much into the whole "two rinks" thing. Sure there might only be two rinks in Nashville, where a lot of businesses are, but there are rinks in a lot of smaller towns in middle Tennesee, even if they are roller rinks. So there could be two in Nashville, but thirty minutes away there is a roller hockey rink in Spring Hill, Bellevue, Cool Springs, etc.

And I can state for a fact that we don't solely rely on transplants to fill the rink. Early on when the novelty wore off sure, but now we are seeing more natives becoming fans.
I think toys r us sells nhl 13 for ps3 and xbox in nashville. Does that count for something as well?

So you plan to have a stable fan base whose sole exposure to the game is going to games ? That the fans will embrace the game without ever viscerally experiencing it ? Who will know how hard it is to make a great saucer pass becase someone tells them it is hard on tv ? Good luck with that

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12-03-2012, 12:14 AM
  #260
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I think toys r us sells nhl 13 for ps3 and xbox in nashville. Does that count for something as well?

So you plan to have a stable fan base whose sole exposure to the game is going to games ? That the fans will embrace the game without ever viscerally experiencing it ? Who will know how hard it is to make a great saucer pass becase someone tells them it is hard on tv ? Good luck with that
I think my point flew by your head.

Sure we don't have many rinks where the BUSINESSES are, BUT we DO have rinks where the PEOPLE are.

And to answer your question, yes, we HAVE a stable fan base even if most of them have never played, let alone know how to skate.

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12-03-2012, 12:16 AM
  #261
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You're dancing all around my point. The Predators are filling their barn too. And it's a bigger barn.

There's nothing special about Canadians. If a town takes it into their heads to love a team, south or north, regardless of sport, that town will fill the barn.

Tennessee had a little trouble getting used to the NHL, not because it's not a good hockey market, but because it's a college sports culture, and the NHL's culture is different, If they're filling the barn, then they're doing better than the Titans most years, and most of the battle is won. Unless something goes seriously wrong in the next few years that market should be stable going forward.
Filling the barn at cut rate ticket prices ? yay !!!! Still no profitd in 14 years and a stagnating hockey culture. The future is so bright i gotta wear shades.

This isnt a cultural thing or a canada/us thing. And in terms of something going seriously wrong, does ending the city subsidy count ?

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12-03-2012, 12:17 AM
  #262
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I think my point flew by your head.

Sure we don't have many rinks where the BUSINESSES are, BUT we DO have rinks where the PEOPLE are.
The point didn't fly by his head. He heard you. He just didn't want to accept the implications of what you're saying, because he wants to believe that special Canadian magic makes money happen for teams when they move north of the border. We have a team in Quebec, this guy will want one in Halifax. We have a team in Halifax, this kind of poster is going to want one in Yellowknife. No matter how small the market. Canadianness will make the moneys happen!!!!!

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12-03-2012, 12:18 AM
  #263
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The piling on NSH has to stop. I and others am talking about franchises that cannot or wont get it together. I have my problems with Nashville as a city but they are a good hockey market.

Edmonton, Calgary also took from Toronto too. In the late 1990's
Discussing Nashville is fine as far as I'm concerned. If we're going to have a contraction thread it's to be expected with the attitudes that some fans hold together Nashville and other non-traditional markets.

With that said, if you all start getting personal about it I'll be very short and not so lenient with my response. Don't be petty...

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12-03-2012, 12:19 AM
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Filling the barn at cut rate ticket prices ? yay !!!! Still no profitd in 14 years and a stagnating hockey culture. The future is so bright i gotta wear shades.

This isnt a cultural thing or a canada/us thing. And in terms of something going seriously wrong, does ending the city subsidy count ?
I think this is a cultural thing. You guys have literally no other reason to even CARE what happens to southern teams, except perhaps some latent hurt feelings about teams moving south and west in the 90's.

Don't forget that this lockout is being directed BY BOSTON. Not by the southern teams. Jacobs is running this show, not the southern owners.

Ending the city subsidy, BTW, would screw over 14 different NHL teams if it happened, at least 4 of which reside in Canada. You still haven't straight up admitted that the Jets' profit margins are LESS than the total Winnipeg subsidy, for that matter. THEY lose their subsidy, THEY lose money too.

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12-03-2012, 12:20 AM
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I think my point flew by your head.

Sure we don't have many rinks where the BUSINESSES are, BUT we DO have rinks where the PEOPLE are.

And to answer your question, yes, we HAVE a stable fan base even if most of them have never played, let alone know how to skate.
So young kids in nashville want to be like mike, despite never playing ? If the game remains personally foreign to the overwhelming majority of your fans, when things go south ( as they inevitably will for all teams) then without the draw of hockey ( not the nhl) your fans will leave in droves.

Like i said, good luck with that.

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12-03-2012, 12:21 AM
  #266
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Filling the barn at cut rate ticket prices ? yay !!!! Still no profitd in 14 years and a stagnating hockey culture. The future is so bright i gotta wear shades.

This isnt a cultural thing or a canada/us thing. And in terms of something going seriously wrong, does ending the city subsidy count ?
90-100% attendance at low low prices is still progress compared to teams with 75ish% at even lower prices.

Once we have another year or two with this stability, we'll raise our prices again.

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12-03-2012, 12:23 AM
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90-100% attendance at low low prices is still progress compared to teams with 75ish% at even lower prices.

Once we have another year or two with this stability, we'll raise our prices again.
Pretty much. The bizarre mythos of the business forum notwithstanding, it's hardly like a Canadian market has never struggled to fill its house.

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12-03-2012, 12:25 AM
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I think this is a cultural thing. You guys have literally no other reason to even CARE what happens to southern teams, except perhaps some latent hurt feelings about teams moving south and west in the 90's.

Don't forget that this lockout is being directed BY BOSTON. Not by the southern teams. Jacobs is running this show, not the southern owners.

Ending the city subsidy, BTW, would screw over 14 different NHL teams if it happened, at least 4 of which reside in Canada. You still haven't straight up admitted that the Jets' profit margins are LESS than the total Winnipeg subsidy, for that matter. THEY lose their subsidy, THEY lose money too.
Despite the fact that the population is way lower in the peg, if winnipeg is getting subsidised by the league and the city in 10 years, ill be the first to include them in relocation/ contravtion talks.

You might say that is not fair because the hockey market is so much stronger in the peg, and thats my reason for thinking they will be standing on their own two feet.

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12-03-2012, 12:25 AM
  #269
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I am rather enjoying reading about how people around here don't care about hockey.

What are some things about which we do care? I'm interested in learning more tonight since I'm not going anywhere for another hour and a half.

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12-03-2012, 12:29 AM
  #270
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So young kids in nashville want to be like mike, despite never playing ? If the game remains personally foreign to the overwhelming majority of your fans, when things go south ( as they inevitably will for all teams) then without the draw of hockey ( not the nhl) your fans will leave in droves.

Like i said, good luck with that.
A major point of having hockey in places like Nashville is to build the sport there for youths.

For instance, since the Jackets came to Columbus the number of young people playing ice hockey has gone way up. And even then, you don't have to have a strong background of playing hockey to appreciate an NHL team. The point is to have large American markets that make a lot of money when doing well and if they do poorly for an extended period of time they get held over until they can start doing well again.

For instance, Columbus fans have never been given a fair shake with regards to a quality team or product. I don't think we can judge Columbus as a fanbase or a hockey market until they are given a few years of competitive hockey on which to build.

More than being Canadian, teams like Montreal and Toronto have history to fall back on. Many US teams don't have that yet. If the NHL wants to be legitimate, it needs to succeed in the United States. If you don't want or care that the NHL is legitimate as a league, well then...

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12-03-2012, 12:33 AM
  #271
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90-100% attendance at low low prices is still progress compared to teams with 75ish% at even lower prices.

Once we have another year or two with this stability, we'll raise our prices again.
Attendnce is not the right metric, revenues are, and they non traditional markets have some of the legues lowest revenues. The 75% teams still have room to grow in a gate driven league. If you are already selling out and are still in the red there are two ways to turn a profit. Increase ticket cost, or ask for revenue from other markets. If these markets are as good as some purport, then im sure your fans could handle the former.

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12-03-2012, 12:35 AM
  #272
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If attendance isn't the right metric why did we have to hear about how bad our attendance was for so long?

It was attendance. That improved, so now it's revenue. If/when that improves it will be something else. And something else. And something else.

It's always something.

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12-03-2012, 12:37 AM
  #273
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Attendnce is not the right metric, revenues are, and they non traditional markets have some of the legues lowest revenues. The 75% teams still have room to grow in a gate driven league. If you are already selling out and are still in the red there are two ways to turn a profit. Increase ticket cost, or ask for revenue from other markets. If these markets are as good as some purport, then im sure your fans could handle the former.
Ok, then it's settled. Our fans can handle increased ticket prices, as we've just experienced them the last couple of years. You have to realize that it takes time to get up to the "respectable", or "outrageous" prices of Toronto or Vancouver.

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12-03-2012, 12:40 AM
  #274
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A major point of having hockey in places like Nashville is to build the sport there for youths.

For instance, since the Jackets came to Columbus the number of young people playing ice hockey has gone way up. And even then, you don't have to have a strong background of playing hockey to appreciate an NHL team. The point is to have large American markets that make a lot of money when doing well and if they do poorly for an extended period of time they get held over until they can start doing well again.

For instance, Columbus fans have never been given a fair shake with regards to a quality team or product. I don't think we can judge Columbus as a fanbase or a hockey market until they are given a few years of competitive hockey on which to build.

More than being Canadian, teams like Montreal and Toronto have history to fall back on. Many US teams don't have that yet. If the NHL wants to be legitimate, it needs to succeed in the United States. If you don't want or care that the NHL is legitimate as a league, well then...

The nhl can and does succeed in the states. If you are saying that the nhl has to succeed in every us market, i completely disagree. If they do, great. If they dont, it sucks but thems the breaks.

And if kids dont play the game there goes your next generation of fans. i cant think of a single market in any prodessional sport whose sole relationship to the game is going to the games. No one questions why things like biathalon and nordic combined dont rool off the tounges of people in alabama.

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12-03-2012, 12:43 AM
  #275
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Because hockey in TN is comparable to biathalons and nordic combined in Alabama.

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