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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Contraction a necessary evil for survival of NHL says economist

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Old
12-03-2012, 12:43 AM
  #276
Killion
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
For instance, since the Jackets came to Columbus the number of young people playing ice hockey has gone way up. And even then, you don't have to have a strong background of playing hockey to appreciate an NHL team.... Columbus fans have never been given a fair shake with regards to a quality team or product. I don't think we can judge Columbus as a fanbase or a hockey market until they are given a few years of competitive hockey on which to build.
Pretty much. Columbus like Nashville has had lousy management, no talent in the executive suites, less still on the ice, compounded of course with an onerous lease, difficulties with a facility that wasnt supposed to be competeing, massive hit to the economy. Indeed, I think youd have to be some kinda special incompetent to mess up NHL hockey in Ohio & in Tennessee, maybe use a combination of the Norm Green meets Donny Waddell Playbook or something. Just mindblowing really. Lets just hope that both franchises have turned the corner as I see absolutely no reason whatsoever that they cant be tremendously successful.... and ya, your absolutely correct. One need not have played a sport in order to embrace it, appreciate it. All playing does is give one a different perspective, not necessarily a deeper understanding, nor does it give one license to state that because someone never played the game, they dont understand it, blanketing them all as casual, fickle, transitory. Elitism of the worst kind is that.

AND IF I SEE ANOTHER POST SUGGESTING SUCH. T.R.O.U.B.L.E.


Last edited by Killion: 12-03-2012 at 12:50 AM.
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12-03-2012, 12:46 AM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Soundgarden View Post
Ok, then it's settled. Our fans can handle increased ticket prices, as we've just experienced them the last couple of years. You have to realize that it takes time to get up to the "respectable", or "outrageous" prices of Toronto or Vancouver.
Nashville will never be the maket toronto is. Its not going to happen. I know it takes time, everyone admits it takes time. The question is one of scale. How long can the preds stay on the trajectory they are on? What have they done to indicate that their markets are appreciability growing ?

What you call outrageous is what is borne by those markets. Nothing more.

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12-03-2012, 12:49 AM
  #278
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Because hockey in TN is comparable to biathalons and nordic combined in Alabama.
They have two freaking sheets in nashville and i suspect less than 50 in the entire state with no outoor ice. Roller hockey is not the same. Where are these youth programs going to come from ?

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12-03-2012, 12:53 AM
  #279
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
If attendance isn't the right metric why did we have to hear about how bad our attendance was for so long?

It was attendance. That improved, so now it's revenue. If/when that improves it will be something else. And something else. And something else.

It's always something.
Its always been revenues, you could sell out any rink if you wre willing to drop the ticket prices enough. That does not contribute to stability.

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12-03-2012, 12:54 AM
  #280
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There are preds fans in this very thread that have suggested this, if not more. If you want i can point them out.
There are Preds fans suggesting that teams have gotten 30-40 years in a failing market and that that should apply to their 15 year old team? Please, point them out

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12-03-2012, 12:55 AM
  #281
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I was just calling out the hyperbole. I'm not really sure from where your reply came.

Substantially more people like hockey in TN than like biathalons or "nordic combined" in Alabama. Hell, substantially more people in Alabama like hockey than those two things. You called someone out for exaggerating just a few pages back. I'm doing the same.

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12-03-2012, 12:57 AM
  #282
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
Its always been revenues, you could sell out any rink if you wre willing to drop the ticket prices enough. That does not contribute to stability.
You missed my point.

And no it hasn't always been about revenues. I mean, in the grand scheme of things yes, it's always been about revenues. But I can confidently say that people did not harp on that until the more convenient "lol no one knows what hockey is in TN" line dried up. If hockey comes back this season and Nashville is suddenly a highly profitable team some other excuse will pop up. There exists a group of NHL fans who do not want hockey in places like Nashville, period. It will always be something, like I said.

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12-03-2012, 12:58 AM
  #283
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Its always been revenues, you could sell out any rink if you wre willing to drop the ticket prices enough. That does not contribute to stability.
Don't go into marketing. Getting people in is 75% of the battle. Not even one generation has grown up with the Preds. I go to a school in Arkansas with a lot of people from Nashville and Tennessee in general. I was amazed at how many of them adored hockey. Of course, they're all 18 and in college, so that doesn't help attendance or revenue at all, but give em 10 or 15 years and they're all season ticket holders

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12-03-2012, 12:59 AM
  #284
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By the way, I played ball hockey in my street as a kid. I've been a hockey (the sport, not the NHL) fan for nearing on twenty years. Obviously roller hockey and ice hockey aren't the same, hence the subtle differences in each one's adjective, but one does not grow better fans than the other. A hockey fan is a hockey fan.

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12-03-2012, 01:03 AM
  #285
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To that point, one of my friends became a bigger Preds fan because he started playing roller hockey. It's not the exact type of hockey that is important, it's the hockey in general. I've never played any hockey outside of ball hockey in my street and knee hockey in my basement. I love hockey more than a lot of people I know that play.

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12-03-2012, 01:05 AM
  #286
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Pretty much. Columbus like Nashville has had lousy management, no talent in the executive suites, less still on the ice, compounded of course with an onerous lease, difficulties with a facility that wasnt supposed to be competeing, massive hit to the economy. Indeed, I think youd have to be some kinda special incompetent to mess up NHL hockey in Ohio & in Tennessee, maybe use a combination of the Norm Green meets Donny Waddell Playbook or something. Just mindblowing really. Lets just hope that both franchises have turned the corner as I see absolutely no reason whatsoever that they cant be tremendously successful.... and ya, your absolutely correct. One need not have played a sport in order to embrace it, appreciate it. All playing does is give one a different perspective, not necessarily a deeper understanding, nor does it give one license to state that because someone never played the game, they dont understand it, blanketing them all as casual, fickle, transitory. Elitism of the worst kind is that.

AND IF I SEE ANOTHER POST SUGGESTING SUCH. T.R.O.U.B.L.E.
yes they may have turned the corner, all that means is that they now have the potential to be a stable team. When does potential have to actually be realised? I hope it does but ive been hoping for a while.


If you think that the expectation that participaing in something so that it is not exclusively in the abstract is elitist then we have fundamentally different understanding of the meaning of the word. Its the difference between book smarts and street smarts and I never questioned the passion or understanding of the fans, but if a fan base is based exclusively on observation and not participation, then there is no anchor for these fans to hold them through the low times.

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12-03-2012, 01:06 AM
  #287
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
yes they may have turned the corner, all that means is that they now have the potential to be a stable team. When does potential have to actually be realised? I hope it does but ive been hoping for a while.


If you think that the expectation that participaing in something so that it is not exclusively in the abstract is elitist then we have fundamentally different understanding of the meaning of the word. Its the difference between book smarts and street smarts and I never questioned the passion or understanding of the fans, but if a fan base is based exclusively on observation and not participation, then there is no anchor for these fans to hold them through the low times.
So when does the potential for any market to be a good market have to be realized?

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12-03-2012, 01:09 AM
  #288
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
You missed my point.

And no it hasn't always been about revenues. I mean, in the grand scheme of things yes, it's always been about revenues. But I can confidently say that people did not harp on that until the more convenient "lol no one knows what hockey is in TN" line dried up. If hockey comes back this season and Nashville is suddenly a highly profitable team some other excuse will pop up. There exists a group of NHL fans who do not want hockey in places like Nashville, period. It will always be something, like I said.
You think that traditional markets want the new markets to fail? im not going to move the goal posts, if any of the outhen teams make demonstrable sustainable progress in growing the game i would be ecstatic.

Any team that pays their own way in any market is fine by me.

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12-03-2012, 01:12 AM
  #289
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The point didn't fly by his head. He heard you. He just didn't want to accept the implications of what you're saying, because he wants to believe that special Canadian magic makes money happen for teams when they move north of the border. We have a team in Quebec, this guy will want one in Halifax. We have a team in Halifax, this kind of poster is going to want one in Yellowknife. No matter how small the market. Canadianness will make the moneys happen!!!!!
No once we have teams in QC, Hamilton, and a second Toronto team we'll be good. At least until either Halifax or Saskatoon gets its population upto 750K. But until then we're fine with 10 teams.

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12-03-2012, 01:16 AM
  #290
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So when does the potential for any market to be a good market have to be realized?
Id like to know this as well. Its been 14 years, you just said another 10 or 15 for all of hese kids to become sth. Im fine with that, but if in 10 or 15 years we are at the same place as we are now, what is your interprettion ? They need more time or that it is a failed market?

The state of tennessee has less than 3000 registered okey players 14 years after they got the preds. I see this as a point of concern because it means that hockey is not making any inroads into the sporting culture which in my opinon does not bode well for the future.

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12-03-2012, 01:16 AM
  #291
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
By the way, I played ball hockey in my street as a kid. I've been a hockey (the sport, not the NHL) fan for nearing on twenty years. Obviously roller hockey and ice hockey aren't the same, hence the subtle differences in each one's adjective, but one does not grow better fans than the other. A hockey fan is a hockey fan.
Precisely. And an interesting sidebar to the discussion, is just how much the Southern states do in fact have in common with Canada, whereby were both solitudes living in the shadows in many ways of the worlds greatest super power. You guys within it, part of it and proud to be so as members of the union but in many ways still separate, we of course autonomous but none the less much reliant upon Washington in terms of trade & commerce etc. In order to understand the US, one must really understand the Civil War and how even to this day it still echo's in the South. The cultural aspects of hockey, the game itself is to my way of thinking a natural fit to the tastes & more's of Southerners, appealing on many levels. Given time, though never on par with a Toronto or New York financially, absolutely no reason on Earth why it cant succeed, begin producing high quality talent from the amateur ranks.

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12-03-2012, 01:21 AM
  #292
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
You think that traditional markets want the new markets to fail? im not going to move the goal posts, if any of the outhen teams make demonstrable sustainable progress in growing the game i would be ecstatic.

Any team that pays their own way in any market is fine by me.
I never mentioned markets. I mentioned fans. They don't belong to a specific market, nor do they define their respective markets.

And you should change what you said. Any team that only needs help from others for relatively short, though not definitively set, period of time is fine by you.

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12-03-2012, 01:31 AM
  #293
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Precisely. And an interesting sidebar to the discussion, is just how much the Southern states do in fact have in common with Canada, whereby were both solitudes living in the shadows in many ways of the worlds greatest super power. You guys within it, part of it and proud to be so as members of the union but in many ways still separate, we of course autonomous but none the less much reliant upon Washington in terms of trade & commerce etc. In order to understand the US, one must really understand the Civil War and how even to this day it still echo's in the South. The cultural aspects of hockey, the game itself is to my way of thinking a natural fit to the tastes & more's of Southerners, appealing on many levels. Given time, though never on par with a Toronto or New York financially, absolutely no reason on Earth why it cant succeed, begin producing high quality talent from the amateur ranks.
Except of course the current lack of rinks. And being canadian and having lived in the south i would be very much interested in learning how much we have in common.

If you are ratinalizing the lack of success of southern expansion teams through the lens of the civil war then you obviously have spent way more time thinking about this than me.

No one is saying that the game cant succeed, what is being said is that the game is not currently successful, that there are systemic obstacles restricting this success and it does not appear that these markets are making sufficient progress to overcome these obstacles. I want hockey to be stong n vibrant in the south.

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12-03-2012, 01:35 AM
  #294
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
I never mentioned markets. I mentioned fans. They don't belong to a specific market, nor do they define their respective markets.

And you should change what you said. Any team that only needs help from others for relatively short, though not definitively set, period of time is fine by you.
I dont understand what you mean, care to explain ?

Are there fans who want the southern teams to fail ? I am sure there are, but I dont know any and I certainly dont want it.

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12-03-2012, 01:37 AM
  #295
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OK so we have found common ground here. Nashville has existed for 14 years. The market is currently going through its second lockout, and has seen one ownership change (a beneficial change). Youth hockey is not growing at an insane rate, but it is growing. 14 years isn't long enough to write off the market, and I think reasonable people see that.

Can we move along to the point of the thread now? I mean, the rest of this conversation cannot be had for several more years.

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12-03-2012, 01:38 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
I dont understand what you mean, care to explain ?

Are there fans who want the southern teams to fail ? I am sure there are, but I dont know any and I certainly dont want it.
Yes, there are.

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12-03-2012, 01:42 AM
  #297
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just read the title of the thread..nothing else...but NO.

No
No
NO

There will be no contraction.

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12-03-2012, 01:45 AM
  #298
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Any Non (Major)Canadian market you put a Hockey team, is going to struggle.

Hockey is a Gate driven league. The NHL does not have 7 billion dollars a year T.V. money (NFL) to hide awful franchises like Jacksonville.

You could put the NFL in Alaska, it would make money.

So with that said, it's going to take Decades(maybe longer) for a market to develop.

NEITHER Side will agree to contraction. It's a non starter on both sides. It's pointless to debate it.

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12-03-2012, 01:48 AM
  #299
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Yes, there are.
I know there are, but its never been a position that i have supported. Just as there are great fans in non traditional makets there are idiot fans in traditional markets. If you have a beef with them, take it up with them not me.

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12-03-2012, 01:50 AM
  #300
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Originally Posted by phillyflyer2112 View Post
just read the title of the thread..nothing else...but NO.

No
No
NO

There will be no contraction.
Gotcha, agree. And once
more with meaning....


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