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Contraction a necessary evil for survival of NHL says economist

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Old
12-02-2012, 02:51 PM
  #176
Legionnaire11
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i've never stated one time that the NHL will pass those leagues.


You're leaving Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, Atlanta out of your largest markets. You are also forgetting that the population is shifting to the south in a big way. If you've never lived here then you really can't speak about the feasibility of hockey in the south. I spent half my life in Philly and half in Nashville, my family was in the NYC, NJ, PHI area for 80 years and my wife's family was in Detr-Windsor for 60 years. We've been in Nashville for 20 years now, and can tell you 100% without a doubt that hockey will work in the south. But it takes multiple generations, not just build it and they will come.

I know that the shortsighted northern elite believe that 5 years is enough to call en expansion a failure, and I really don't know how to change your view on that or to convince you that without growing a national footprint that the NHL will not survive. But that is the reality of being a top level sports league.

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12-02-2012, 03:02 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post
i've never stated one time that the NHL will pass those leagues.


You're leaving Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, Atlanta out of your largest markets. You are also forgetting that the population is shifting to the south in a big way. If you've never lived here then you really can't speak about the feasibility of hockey in the south. I spent half my life in Philly and half in Nashville, my family was in the NYC, NJ, PHI area for 80 years and my wife's family was in Detr-Windsor for 60 years. We've been in Nashville for 20 years now, and can tell you 100% without a doubt that hockey will work in the south. But it takes multiple generations, not just build it and they will come.

I know that the shortsighted northern elite believe that 5 years is enough to call en expansion a failure, and I really don't know how to change your view on that or to convince you that without growing a national footprint that the NHL will not survive. But that is the reality of being a top level sports league.
Houston, Dallas , Miami are bad sports markets to begin with and Phoenix is a lost cause. The reality is it has not been 5 years but getting close to 15-20 as many of these franchises were from the 90's. Some markets have failed some have not. You can't keep demanding players cut salary or that NYC, TOR, etc keep funding the south. At some point, you stand on your own.In any other business, it does not take 5 years to cut losses.


The NHL is not surviving now. It's shut down. There is a very real chance Fehr wins. What then?

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12-02-2012, 03:22 PM
  #178
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i've never stated one time that the NHL will pass those leagues.


You're leaving Houston, Dallas, Phoenix, Miami, Atlanta out of your largest markets. You are also forgetting that the population is shifting to the south in a big way. If you've never lived here then you really can't speak about the feasibility of hockey in the south. I spent half my life in Philly and half in Nashville, my family was in the NYC, NJ, PHI area for 80 years and my wife's family was in Detr-Windsor for 60 years. We've been in Nashville for 20 years now, and can tell you 100% without a doubt that hockey will work in the south. But it takes multiple generations, not just build it and they will come.

I know that the shortsighted northern elite believe that 5 years is enough to call en expansion a failure, and I really don't know how to change your view on that or to convince you that without growing a national footprint that the NHL will not survive. But that is the reality of being a top level sports league.
I think there are markets that indeed are important to a national footprint. I certainly put SoCal, Atlanta, Dallas, and SJ, potentially Seattle into that category. Selectivity is the key, just a big enough city to have a foothold in the region. Atlanta is more important for the SE than Carolina, Florida teams and any others in that quadrant, yet that is the ONE market the NHL had to leave twice now. Had they perhaps put all their energies there instead, it might have been different. Who knows really?

What also should not be ignored is the in spite of all the networks' talk about the footprint, they continue to ignore hockey teams anywhere out side the NE quadrant + Chicago and Detroit. In my opinion, they seem to be full of it.

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12-02-2012, 03:27 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire11 View Post

I know that the shortsighted northern elite believe that 5 years is enough to call en expansion a failure, and I really don't know how to change your view on that or to convince you that without growing a national footprint that the NHL will not survive. But that is the reality of being a top level sports league.
If being a top level sports leagues means subsidizing a bunch of welfare roustabouts for half a century, thanks I'll pass.

The NHL's existence is not linked to any of these large markets ( and lets be clear here when you say market, what you really mean is population. not fans that care or even know about the game, simply population). Would it suck is some of these markets got the axe ? Yes. Would it be the death knell for the NHL ? Hell no, in fact trimming the fat might well be in the leagues best long term interests.

If markets = population I would much rather that the NHL subsidize the mexico city sombreros for then next 50 years, because even at 0.0001% of the potential market, they would still outdraw some of the southern teams.

When the town that I grew up in ( population 50 000) has more rinks in a 30 minute drive than the state of kansas, I think it speaks to the suitability of these "non traditional" markets. Markets that have to describe hockey as " ice hockey" are probably not great markets irrespective of how many people there are. It must be easy to demand the largesse of real hockey markets when its not your money. Say montreal and toronto dump money these markets for decades. How much longer will they have to wait to see a return on their investment ? Waiting a century for ROI is not a plan than anyone would advocate ( unless they were playing with house money).

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12-02-2012, 03:27 PM
  #180
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go back and read some of my other posts, 20 years doesn't get it done either. May sound crazy to you I know.

I'll take Nashville as the example.

1998 - The ticket buying sports fan has been raised on Tennessee Football and NASCAR. They've never had a reason to watch, learn or care about NHL hockey. In fact a lot of folks here were mad that the NHL even came to Nashville because they didn't want to learn a new game.

But their kids have a chance to grow up with the NHL in town, not all of those kids will even be allowed to grow their love of the game because mom and dad don't share it and probably don't go out of their way to provide the kid with hockey entertainment.

Now the kids who do grow up with the NHL and do grow their appetite for the game are not in a position to be regular ticket buyers until their mid-20's. Which brings us too...

2023 - the first generation has grown up with the Predators and NHL, the team has been averaging 12-14k in the down years, and 16k in the good years. This generation can now shore up those numbers and boost the average up to selling out or near sellout most of the time. The real benefit is that they ARE encouraging their kids to take an interest in hockey, so when those kids are ready to become regular ticket buyers then we're really talking about success (or lack of).

2048 - That second generation is fully engrained in the NHL and nobody is questioning the viability of the city/region anymore. Better yet, corporate sponsors are now fully on board and can't wait to invest their marketing dollars into advertising with the team and buying tickets to woo clients.

And really it's that corporate dollar that is the biggest difference now. The newer franchises don't have the corporate support yet because it's just not worth the risk to them yet. Once the NHL establishes itself with the local population, then the rest of the sponsors will jump on board (or they won't)

So whether they fail or succeed, it's too early to tell. One thing that is sure though, drawing down the size of the league will scare away corporate money which further depreciates the league and creates this same cycle that we're in at the moment. Eventually if your league (and it's revenue pool) is small enough, the players are going to leave for the bigger money in Europe. The KHL is a clearly inferior league at the moment, but with bold expansion plans and an eye on a true continental elite league, it would definitely surpass a dwindling NHL.

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12-02-2012, 03:29 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I think there are markets that indeed are important to a national footprint. I certainly put SoCal, Atlanta, Dallas, and SJ, potentially Seattle into that category. Selectivity is the key, just a big enough city to have a foothold in the region. Atlanta is more important for the SE than Carolina, Florida teams and any others in that quadrant, yet that is the ONE market the NHL had to leave twice now. Had they perhaps put all their energies there instead, it might have been different. Who knows really?

What also should not be ignored is the in spite of all the networks' talk about the footprint, they continue to ignore hockey teams anywhere out side the NE quadrant + Chicago and Detroit. In my opinion, they seem to be full of it.
Atlanta is really unfortunate since they seemed to have been turning the corner there, the relocation was just as much a result of circumstance as it was from lack of support. If ASG had any interesting in owning and operating a hockey team, it would be a different story. Similarly if TNSE had been able to purchase and relocate the Coyotes instead, it would have been a different story.

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12-02-2012, 03:32 PM
  #182
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The Smaller the NHL gets, the less broadcasting and sponsorship dollars are available. Which creates more "have nots" and the need to contract further.
Well, to play Devils Advocate for a moment, the face of traditional media is changing at a rapid pace. Who's to say what it will look like in 10yrs, let alone 20? It could be entirely PPV, PPC, Apps, selective subscriptions per event & or show, gone the big dollar contracts from the major broadcasters. A smaller league with the elite of the elite playing, "Super Teams" if you will, fewer games, shorter season, more exclusive with teams in California, the Southwest, South, Northeast, Midwest & Pacific NW along with Canada, well, I kinda figure such a scenario would be beyond entertaining. Quality instead of quantity. Id gladly shell out for that.

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12-02-2012, 03:33 PM
  #183
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If being a top level sports leagues means subsidizing a bunch of welfare roustabouts for half a century, thanks I'll pass.

The NHL's existence is not linked to any of these large markets ( and lets be clear here when you say market, what you really mean is population. not fans that care or even know about the game, simply population). Would it suck is some of these markets got the axe ? Yes. Would it be the death knell for the NHL ? Hell no, in fact trimming the fat might well be in the leagues best long term interests.

If markets = population I would much rather that the NHL subsidize the mexico city sombreros for then next 50 years, because even at 0.0001% of the potential market, they would still outdraw some of the southern teams.

When the town that I grew up in ( population 50 000) has more rinks in a 30 minute drive than the state of kansas, I think it speaks to the suitability of these "non traditional" markets. Markets that have to describe hockey as " ice hockey" are probably not great markets irrespective of how many people there are. It must be easy to demand the largesse of real hockey markets when its not your money. Say montreal and toronto dump money these markets for decades. How much longer will they have to wait to see a return on their investment ? Waiting a century for ROI is not a plan than anyone would advocate ( unless they were playing with house money).
The grassroots campaign should definitely be part of the discussion. Why there are still only 2 ice rinks in Nashville after 15 years is beyond me. The NHL needs to do more to grow the sport on a youth level in these areas too, I definitely agree with that.

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12-02-2012, 03:56 PM
  #184
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The grassroots campaign should definitely be part of the discussion. Why there are still only 2 ice rinks in Nashville after 15 years is beyond me. The NHL needs to do more to grow the sport on a youth level in these areas too, I definitely agree with that.
Are you serious ? I played my entire youth in arenas ( some nice and some dumps) and not one of them ever got a freaking cent from the NHL. You know who paid for the areans ? The people who wanted to support hockey.

so you now expect the traditional markets to subsidise the non traditional markets, build arenas in these markets ( which presumably other people will profit from) and you expect it reasonable that they should do this for the next 30 of 40 years ? Again I ask are you freaking serious ? How about this, if you want to get the "NE elite" to stop slagging on the parasitic teams, how about they take some responsibility for growing their own markets ? If you asked why they havent ? We both know the answer, if they dont they get to continually cry poor and make it up from real markets while maoning about how hard they have it.

Perhaps the NHL could also pay Shea Webber to dress up like santa claus and shimmy down all of the chimneys in nashville leaving box seats and signed jerseys in order to try an entice those fans that havenet noticed that there has been a team there for the last 15 years. But since they might have to do this for 20 years, we might have to find someone else to pick up the slack.

Seriously I think you are deluding yourself with your reasonable time to establish a market. I think your timeline only makes sense when you know that you will never have to meet any specific metrics of market growth because no matter how poorly team growth is you always get to fall back on " it takes time to develope a market".

If the premise of revenue sharing is in the best interest of the league and that mtl and toronto should subsidise failed markets in the south only so long as they can het on their feet, then what would you think of this proposal. The have teams give zero interest loans to the have nots. we not looking to exploit you, but we expect that when you get on your feet ( in 50 or 60 years) you start making good on the principle. How does that sound ?

there's a word for people who advocate revenue sharing knowing full well that they will NEVER contribute to it but will always be on the receiving end. that word is moocher and the league would be better off without them and their all of their unrealisable " potential"

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12-02-2012, 04:09 PM
  #185
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How much is this going to cost in terms of revenue sharing, subsidies, taxpayer giveaways, etc? Just to get to a $5-$10M net income at some pt? And then maybe? Sounds like a net loser to me but a net gain to players and whoever is lucky enough to be eating at the trough.

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12-02-2012, 04:14 PM
  #186
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Are you serious ? I played my entire youth in arenas ( some nice and some dumps) and not one of them ever got a freaking cent from the NHL. You know who paid for the areanas ?... so you now expect the traditional markets to subsidise the non traditional markets, build arenas in these markets ( which presumably other people will profit from) and you expect it reasonable that they should do this for the next 30 of 40 years ? Again I ask are you freaking serious ?
I dont know if Legions serious or not about that, but I sure as shootin am.... I too played amateur & Jr in Canada, and ya, in some real dumps bought & paid for by the communities, The Legion, donations from benevolent citizens etc. And dont kid yourself, back in the day pre 63 Universal Draft when the A,B&C Forms were being employed, the NHL sponsored teams, entire leagues in some cases, seriously kickstarting the rapid growth of hockey in Canada and the supply of talent to the professional ranks from the early to latter part of the 20th century. From 1917 to 1963-64, extended in numerous instances with various NHL franchises retaining their Major Junior clubs, others buying them from the 70's onward. So absolutely, the NHL owes it to places like Nashville & Anaheim etc, to provide financial & knowledge support, to truly grow the game. To have not done so is the height of incompetence, totally lacks vision, irresponsible.

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12-02-2012, 04:25 PM
  #187
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go back and read some of my other posts, 20 years doesn't get it done either. May sound crazy to you I know.

I'll take Nashville as the example.

1998 - The ticket buying sports fan has been raised on Tennessee Football and NASCAR. They've never had a reason to watch, learn or care about NHL hockey. In fact a lot of folks here were mad that the NHL even came to Nashville because they didn't want to learn a new game.

But their kids have a chance to grow up with the NHL in town, not all of those kids will even be allowed to grow their love of the game because mom and dad don't share it and probably don't go out of their way to provide the kid with hockey entertainment.

Now the kids who do grow up with the NHL and do grow their appetite for the game are not in a position to be regular ticket buyers until their mid-20's. Which brings us too...

2023 - the first generation has grown up with the Predators and NHL, the team has been averaging 12-14k in the down years, and 16k in the good years. This generation can now shore up those numbers and boost the average up to selling out or near sellout most of the time. The real benefit is that they ARE encouraging their kids to take an interest in hockey, so when those kids are ready to become regular ticket buyers then we're really talking about success (or lack of).

2048 - That second generation is fully engrained in the NHL and nobody is questioning the viability of the city/region anymore. Better yet, corporate sponsors are now fully on board and can't wait to invest their marketing dollars into advertising with the team and buying tickets to woo clients.

And really it's that corporate dollar that is the biggest difference now. The newer franchises don't have the corporate support yet because it's just not worth the risk to them yet. Once the NHL establishes itself with the local population, then the rest of the sponsors will jump on board (or they won't)

So whether they fail or succeed, it's too early to tell. One thing that is sure though, drawing down the size of the league will scare away corporate money which further depreciates the league and creates this same cycle that we're in at the moment. Eventually if your league (and it's revenue pool) is small enough, the players are going to leave for the bigger money in Europe. The KHL is a clearly inferior league at the moment, but with bold expansion plans and an eye on a true continental elite league, it would definitely surpass a dwindling NHL.
Answer me this: Do you think MLB should put a franchise in London? Or the NBA? Or heck, the NHL?

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12-02-2012, 04:30 PM
  #188
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Big difference is that London is geographically unfeasible from a travel and scheduling standpoint.

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12-02-2012, 04:35 PM
  #189
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I dont know if Legions serious or not about that, but I sure as shootin am.... I too played amateur & Jr in Canada, and ya, in some real dumps bought & paid for by the communities, The Legion, donations from benevolent citizens etc. And dont kid yourself, back in the day pre 63 Universal Draft when the A,B&C Forms were being employed, the NHL sponsored teams, entire leagues in some cases, seriously kickstarting the rapid growth of hockey in Canada and the supply of talent to the professional ranks from the early to latter part of the 20th century. From 1917 to 1963-64, extended in numerous instances with various NHL franchises retaining their Major Junior clubs, others buying them from the 70's onward. So absolutely, the NHL owes it to places like Nashville & Anaheim etc, to provide financial & knowledge support, to truly grow the game. To have not done so is the height of incompetence, totally lacks vision, irresponsible.
I have no problem with the NHL providing guidance and I'm clearly younger than you because as a youth player the closest any of us got to dime #1 from the nhl was in our dreams.

but it is not the NHL's job to create markets, they can nurture them as they see fit but they dont create markets where none existed previously. I had no idea that nashville ( a city with a NHL team) had such a dearth of rinks. you could take this as the result of woefull mismanagement on the NHL's part, I take it as the consequences of a market that does not give a rat's behind about hockey ( not the NHL, hockey).

If the have not markets expect the league to create, fund and and be responsible for the continued growth of the game then I respecfully suggest lets just pull all of these small market teams and but them into markets in N/A with the largest population bases. How does that sound nashville ?

The argument of the have not fans boils down to, " we love hockey, we really do. But we dont want to be responsible for any aspect of the games growth and expect pierre in Baie D'urfe and Chris from Markam to pay for our enjoyment in perpetuity and when it goes bad, we can always show up with our hand out, but dont ever question the viability of our market"

Moochers indeed.

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12-02-2012, 04:40 PM
  #190
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Big difference is that London is geographically unfeasible from a travel and scheduling standpoint.
That and london might actually be economically viable in mine, or my kid's lifetimes.

but if its not your money, I guess this isnt much of a concern.

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12-02-2012, 04:47 PM
  #191
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Big difference is that London is geographically unfeasible from a travel and scheduling standpoint.
That's not answering the question.

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12-02-2012, 04:49 PM
  #192
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So absolutely, the NHL owes it to places like Nashville & Anaheim etc, to provide financial & knowledge support, to truly grow the game. To have not done so is the height of incompetence, totally lacks vision, irresponsible.
So if the nhl cant find a willing partner from this community, then you expect the nhl to go it alone ? That it is the NHL's responsibility to build multiple areanas in a city where say one kid in a thousand or 10 thousand gets to experience the feeling of the laces digging into your palms as you lace them up ?

How popular would the NBA or the NFL be if you actively prevented kids from participating in basketball or football ? Its not like you can play pickup ( on a pond or city rink) in anaheim or nashville.

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12-02-2012, 04:54 PM
  #193
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That's not answering the question.
What do you want me to say? Oh no, hockey wouldn't work in london, they're only interested in soccer and rugby...

But if the geography were different and london were in NA, then absolutely the NHL would be there. So I did answer the question, you only provided a terrible example.

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12-02-2012, 05:01 PM
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on the NHL growing the youth game, I don't think I said the NHL needs to dump millions into building 30 sheets of ice in every NHL city. Only that they need to do more to help grow the game.

I actually think that should be on the individual teams in that city/region. To be fair, I know of two rink projects in Nashville that were put on hold due to the recession. And there are also several roller hockey rinks that have been added to the area. Even something as simple as helping the surrounding cities plan their rink projects, or be part of the fundraising effort to do so.

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12-02-2012, 05:09 PM
  #195
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on the NHL growing the youth game, I don't think I said the NHL needs to dump millions into building 30 sheets of ice in every NHL city. Only that they need to do more to help grow the game.

I actually think that should be on the individual teams in that city/region. To be fair, I know of two rink projects in Nashville that were put on hold due to the recession. And there are also several roller hockey rinks that have been added to the area. Even something as simple as helping the surrounding cities plan their rink projects, or be part of the fundraising effort to do so.
so essentially your argument boils down to your beleif that you are entitled to enjoy the game on the backs of traditional fans forever and that every failure of the game to grow in your own market is the result of mismanagement by the league. or if we adopt the 60 year plan we can always find some reason other than the fact that your market is not, AND LIKELY NEVER WILL BE, self supporting. If it doesnt work after 15 years, say it takes 25 years. After 25 years its still a bust say, no we were wrong its really 40 years. Fans in real hockey markets just open your wallets and shut your mouths and in 2 years we might have the same number of sheets as one or two of the sprawl communites around montreal with 1/50th the population.

You sure seem to have a lot of suggestions on how best to grow the game without having any real skin in the game.

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12-02-2012, 05:23 PM
  #196
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...but it is not the NHL's job to create markets, they can nurture them as they see fit but they dont create markets where none existed previously. I had no idea that nashville ( a city with a NHL team) had such a dearth of rinks. you could take this as the result of woefull mismanagement on the NHL's part, I take it as the consequences of a market that does not give a rat's behind about hockey ( not the NHL, hockey).

If the have not markets expect the league to create, fund and and be responsible for the continued growth of the game then I respecfully suggest lets just pull all of these small market teams and but them into markets in N/A with the largest population bases. How does that sound nashville ?

The argument of the have not fans boils down to, " we love hockey, we really do. But we dont want to be responsible for any aspect of the games growth and expect pierre in Baie D'urfe and Chris from Markam to pay for our enjoyment in perpetuity and when it goes bad, we can always show up with our hand out, but dont ever question the viability of our market". Moochers indeed.
First bolded, yes, it is the NHL's job to create & nurture markets, not to simply parachute teams into cities, cash the Expansion Fee's, leaving the new owners to their own devices absent any co-operative support whatsoever in actually developing the market at the grass roots levels. Growth through osmosis alone will indeed take 30-40yrs, whereas a pro-active fully engaged league in conjunction with the owner will hyper-drive development. A program of financial & knowledge support with community sports groups in establishing leagues, contributions towards the construction of indoor arenas & outdoor synthetic "rinks"; engaging the NHLPA with its Dreams & Goals program; getting the NHL sponsors involved, from equipment suppliers to associative product & service providers.

Second bolded; why would you yank franchises from Nashville, lets say Carolina & Florida X's 2 years after theyve been established, tens upon hundreds of millions spent? That is completely defeatist. Do you not believe in the "power of hockey"? Do you not think that with the type of program Ive outlined above that it just wont matter? San Jose' & Anaheim, Dallas to a lesser extent have all enjoyed much success with similar programs. The game seriously taking root; the gates swelling. Theres no reason on earth why Florida, Phoenix, Carolina & Nashville cant achieve the same. Imagine a draft in 10, 15 years with prime Grade A talent coming out of Tennessee? Can happen if theyd only get going on it.

Third bolded, really, Ive got no comment on that. Just so totally misses the mark from start to finish, no point in even addressing it. As a Canadian, the cradle of hockey, it just makes me sad to read such. No understanding, no empathy. Moochers they are not, serving no purpose with the drive-bye in smearing fan bases who's teams are struggling.


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12-02-2012, 05:40 PM
  #197
sandysan
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Imagine a draft in 10, 15 years with prime Grade A talent coming out of Tennessee? Can happen if theyd only get going on it.

Third bolded, really, Ive got no comment on that. Just so totally misses the mark from start to finish, no point in even addressing it. As a Canadian, the cradle of hockey, it just makes me sad to read such. No understanding, no empathy. Moochers they are not, serving no purpose with the drive-bye in smearing fan bases who's teams are struggling.
with two rinks ? really ?

no one is saying that there will not be growing pains and no one is advocating yanking teams after 2 years, that's as irresposible as saying that the rest of the league should be ok with non traditional markets being on the dole for 50 years or more.

And I am empathetic, but I am also a realist. I dont think the game will ever have the cultural and societal importance in nashville that it does in montreal or toronto. but after 15 years it still trails cities like beauhornois is it not possible that this is simply a fools errand ? there is nothing wrong with trying to expand the game provided that you acknowledge that at some point you have to make specific advances, saying " but we are a small market" is not a panacea especially after decades.

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12-02-2012, 06:13 PM
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Second bolded; why would you yank franchises from Nashville, lets say Carolina & Florida X's 2 years after theyve been established, tens upon hundreds of millions spent? That is completely defeatist. Do you not believe in the "power of hockey"? Do you not think that with the type of program Ive outlined above that it just wont matter? San Jose' & Anaheim, Dallas to a lesser extent have all enjoyed much success with similar programs. The game seriously taking root; the gates swelling. Theres no reason on earth why Florida, Phoenix, Carolina & Nashville cant achieve the same. Imagine a draft in 10, 15 years with prime Grade A talent coming out of Tennessee? Can happen if theyd only get going on it. .
I absolutely believe in the power of hockey. At the risk of further saddening you, may I ask when you first realized this power ? I can absolutely tell you when I did, it was playing outside with my friends at the rink behind jean coutu where we had to walk to the rink and lace them up on chairs because the city shack wasn't unlocked yet. Seeing the older kids play and getting picked to play with them when I knew I probably wasnt ready but I was willing. The saturdays when dinner was rescheduled for HNIC or the days we ate late watching the game. I love hockey and I love the NHL, but my love for hockey is independent of the NHL. In a city with two rinks where you cant play pickup outside, where are your future fans ? rich prep school kids wont fill a stadium.

If you need to promote the game to get these fans, then why does nashville have two rinks ( essentially making hockey a country club sport) ? Yeah if they went crazy and built a dozen sheets it would help, but they havent and I suspect they wont because it would need private investment and people see that the market there is not clamoring for more hockey. The NHL cannot be solely responsible for the continued growth of the game in non traditional markets. At some point the teams have to get into it as well. The preds have had 15 years, what more are they waiting for ?

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12-02-2012, 06:13 PM
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Nashville is fine. People see Phoenix and think that is everyone. That's not the case.

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12-02-2012, 06:19 PM
  #200
sandysan
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Nashville is fine. People see Phoenix and think that is everyone. That's not the case.
being not as bad as Phoenix is not the same as being "fine" ( and for the record I hope that nashville becomes a great stable market, I'm just not sure they should get another 35 years of trying to become it)

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