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NHL Lockout Thread X: The Leadership Has Left the Building

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12-01-2012, 06:30 PM
  #326
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Throughout this entire lockout there has been a lot of negativity coming from the players towards the owners. The problem is, when the players say "owners" or "league", they usually mean Bettman. He is the face of the NHL BOG and the majority of these players have probably never met the guy. So it's easy to hate and thrown insults towards a single guy who you may or may not have ever met.

On the other hand, you now have a situation where they are trying to set up a meeting where the players may very well be meeting with their own individual owners and/or gm's who they have a much more personal relationship with. Take Eric Cole for example. He was wearing the "puck gary" hat and yet he had much more positive comments towards Geoff Molson. Now let's put them in a meeting room where they're discussing a multi billion dollar industry. Now it's direct employee-boss interaction where there is serious money on the line. I think there may be a bit of intimidation and a general don't crap where you eat feeling go on. This may be where a lot of the hesitation is coming from.

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12-01-2012, 06:32 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
Interesting! Thanks for sharing!

Now I'm left wondering if this is a common sentiment among a
majority of the NHLPA (I have to
assume it is). And if that's the case, I think we all better be prepared for a long battle...or stalemate...or whatever you want to call it. It's like the friggin' battle for Middle Earth...or something.

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12-01-2012, 06:36 PM
  #328
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Guess that shows their true intentions then.
Seems like a pretty good idea when you've already been locked out for a season.

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12-01-2012, 06:38 PM
  #329
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Originally Posted by LPHabsFan View Post
Throughout this entire lockout there has been a lot of negativity coming from the players towards the owners. The problem is, when the players say "owners" or "league", they usually mean Bettman. He is the face of the NHL BOG and the majority of these players have probably never met the guy. So it's easy to hate and thrown insults towards a single guy who you may or may not have ever met.

On the other hand, you now have a situation where they are trying to set up a meeting where the players may very well be meeting with their own individual owners and/or gm's who they have a much more personal relationship with. Take Eric Cole for example. He was wearing the "puck gary" hat and yet he had much more positive comments towards Geoff Molson. Now let's put them in a meeting room where they're discussing a multi billion dollar industry. Now it's direct employee-boss interaction where there is serious money on the line. I think there may be a bit of intimidation and a general don't crap where you eat feeling go on. This may be where a lot of the hesitation is coming from.
that is the problem though, they are not going to war with bettman (they may think they are), but they are litterally going to war against the very same people that are signing there cheques. they are just to stupid to figure that out. do you honestly think the owners sit back and think oh sheesh thank god erik cole isn't saying this about me, no they are thinking along the same lines as bettman when things are said.

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Old
12-01-2012, 06:40 PM
  #330
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Originally Posted by Meanashell11 View Post
What if that guy owned the orchard, paid for the water, the fertilizer, the guys who picked the fruit and the entire distribution network, covered all the costs and then gave you half just for polishing the fruit?? Your comments are ridiculous. If it were not for the owners i just bet these guys would play for free, right? Cause it's their game. They are so good at it. I bet they certainly would not put in all that time if they did not think there was a chance they could get paid millions for all those hours.
Keep ignoring that fact that the only reason the 'guy' owns the orchard and makes any money at all is because millions of people will pay money to see the person 'polish the fruit,' and not to see the guy 'own the orchard.'

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12-01-2012, 06:42 PM
  #331
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Keep ignoring that fact that the only reason the 'guy' owns the orchard and makes any money at all is because millions of people will pay money to see the person 'polish the fruit,' and not to see the guy 'own the orchard.'
keep ignoring the fact that the only reason the orchard exists is because of the person who owns it. if there was no owners, it would mean there would be orchard (hockey) at any level of the world, if there was no owners there would be no league, no hockey players, no arena's, no nothing. the players would be obsolete, would be nobody's like you and me.

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12-01-2012, 06:44 PM
  #332
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Notice how the journalists doesn't even bother checking if the sides have touched base lately? I think apathy might be setting in among them also.

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12-01-2012, 06:45 PM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
Keep ignoring that fact that the only reason the 'guy' owns the orchard and makes any money at all is because millions of people will pay money to see the person 'polish the fruit,' and not to see the guy 'own the orchard.'
Actually the guy who owns the orchard made millions or billions of dollars through other ventures and then spent that money to buy the team and continue to pay for operational costs and cover losses.

They can't live without eachother. The owners need the players to deliver the product and the players need the owners to own, operate, and manage the team. Enough of this already.

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12-01-2012, 06:49 PM
  #334
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
that is the problem though, they are not going to war with bettman (they may think they are), but they are litterally going to war against the very same people that are signing there cheques. they are just to stupid to figure that out. do you honestly think the owners sit back and think oh sheesh thank god erik cole isn't saying this about me, no they are thinking along the same lines as bettman when things are said.
Not sure if my post came off as more pro-pa but it's not and it was more as an explanation and to point out that I think the PA leadership might hesitate to more forward on this. I agree with you in that I don't think they see that because none of the players save for Ryan Suter and a couple of comments towards Jacobs have said anything negative about specific owners. They all probably think that their owner doesn't support the lockout or want what's being asked.

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12-01-2012, 06:54 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
Keep ignoring that fact that the only reason the 'guy' owns the orchard and makes any money at all is because millions of people will pay money to see the person 'polish the fruit,' and not to see the guy 'own the orchard.'
I pick the apples myself, around 15 minutes for one bushel (2-3 each season), been doing it since I was a little kid. Never seen anybody pay money to see someone polish the fruit. We pay the orchard owner.

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12-01-2012, 06:57 PM
  #336
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Notice how the journalists doesn't even bother checking if the sides have touched base lately? I think apathy might be setting in among them also.
I suspect LeBrun's ''Daly and Steve Fehr touched base today'' tweet will come tomorrow afternoon.

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12-01-2012, 06:58 PM
  #337
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So, to come full circle: no, the owners DIDN'T invest hundreds of millions of dollars in their franchises if they believed revenues wouldn't grow. They invested hundreds of millions because they believed the value of the FRANCHISES THEMSELVES would grow.
After this lock out is over I suspect that value of teams will be lower. The credibility of the league will be lower. Maybe it's just me, but an NHL franchise seems like a pretty speculative investment.

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12-01-2012, 07:00 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
It's coming. Make Whole was for a full season and was a pretty great deal once the owners agreed to pay it, at this point there isn't going to be enough season to justify 211M in Make Whole, let alone an additional 182M lol.
I assume the league will have to make the final offer before the seasons canned. Fehr will just continue to posture.

I believe it will be for a 48 game schedule and the make whole will be off the table but the league might give up a bit n contract structure.

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12-01-2012, 07:01 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Barrie22 View Post
keep ignoring the fact that the only reason the orchard exists is because of the person who owns it. if there was no owners, it would mean there would be orchard (hockey) at any level of the world, if there was no owners there would be no league, no hockey players, no arena's, no nothing. the players would be obsolete, would be nobody's like you and me.
Nope. A demand exists in which people have a strong desire to watch a person 'pick fruit.' Take away the owners, and 'picking fruit' won't suddenly disappear, since the talent still exists and the desire to watch the talent also perseveres, so instead, a new, albeit smaller, 'orchard' will replace the old one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
I pick the apples myself, around 15 minutes for one bushel (2-3 each season), been doing it since I was a little kid. Never seen anybody pay money to see someone polish the fruit. We pay the orchard owner.
People only pay to see people who are actually good at it.

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12-01-2012, 07:03 PM
  #340
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Publicly owned team FTW!

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Old
12-01-2012, 07:05 PM
  #341
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After this lock out is over I suspect that value of teams will be lower. The credibility of the league will be lower. Maybe it's just me, but an NHL franchise seems like a pretty speculative investment.
Agreed. T'was my entire point, in fact.

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12-01-2012, 07:06 PM
  #342
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If I were the owners, I cancel the entire season Dec15. Why wait longer than that? Judging by the players comments, I really dont get the impression that they want a fair deal. They want as much as they can get even if they come out net losers financially. It doesnt matter. Listen to Vanek's references to 'stuff' in the above link. Does he sound well informed? Clearly not. Yet he's on pace to lose more money. Or Stuff as he might refer to it. With the make whole provision, the players are getting a relatively decent deal in comparison to other leagues. Not perfect, but better than losing a whole yr's salary. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. An old saying that they may not be familiar with.

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12-01-2012, 07:07 PM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
It's a lockout, not a strike. The owners could restart the season immediately if they decided to be reasonable and actually negotiate.
thank you for this info, but the poster you are replying to did not say it was a strike - in fact, I don't think I've seen any poster say that since this started over 2 months ago.

Why do you feel the need to point out this obvious item that EVERYONE knows?

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12-01-2012, 07:07 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
Nope. A demand exists in which people have a strong desire to watch a person 'pick fruit.' Take away the owners, and 'picking fruit' won't suddenly disappear, since the talent still exists and the desire to watch the talent also perseveres, so instead, a new, albeit smaller, 'orchard' will replace the old one.


People only pay to see people who are actually good at it.
Lets admit that it was a terrible metaphor. I've lived near apple orchards for most of my life.

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12-01-2012, 07:09 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by Some Other Flame View Post
. The owners could restart the season immediately if they decided to be reasonable and actually negotiate. They still haven't even bothered to offer a counter proposal to the PA's last offer.

No matter how many times people try to spin the notion that the PA not caving into every one of the leagues demands means they are now responsible for the lockout, it still will never be true.
Wow, I don't know where to start, but you forgot to mention the players and Fehr were good enough to offer to play while negotiating.

And you say the league hasn't reponded to the PA's garbage offer?

of course not, the league offered an 82 game schedule with make whole. All the players asked for was 50-50 and honour contracts. So all Fehr had to do was hardline for favourable numbers for the players and clean up the contracting issues.

Instead he moves the goalpost and comes back with a delinked proposal he knew the league would throw in the garbage. Have the players themselves asked for delinkage? Why did he do this when linkage has made them millions. Are the players really wanting this battle over linkage and is it worth the fight?

Can somebody please tell me.......

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12-01-2012, 07:13 PM
  #346
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
If I were the owners, I cancel the entire season Dec15. Why wait longer than that? Judging by the players comments, I really dont get the impression that they want a fair deal. They want as much as they can get even if they come out net losers financially. It doesnt matter. Listen to Vanek's references to 'stuff' in the above link. Does he sound well informed? Clearly not. Yet he's on pace to lose more money. Or Stuff as he might refer to it. With the make whole provision, the players are getting a relatively decent deal in comparison to other leagues. Not perfect, but better than losing a whole yr's salary. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. An old saying that they may not be familiar with.
The prob is they still arn't speaking the same language either, instead of fighting over % Fehr throws in delinkage just to make sure no deal will happen and he knows the league will not accept this.

The players followed Goodenow over the cliff and it seems they are lining up to do it again.

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12-01-2012, 07:14 PM
  #347
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Wow, I don't know where to start, but you forgot to mention the players and Fehr were good enough to offer to play while negotiating.

And you say the league hasn't reponded to the PA's garbage offer?

of course not, the league offered an 82 game schedule with make whole. All the players asked for was 50-50 and honour contracts. So all Fehr had to do was hardline for favourable numbers for the players and clean up the contracting issues.

Instead he moves the goalpost and comes back with a delinked proposal he knew the league would throw in the garbage. Have the players themselves asked for delinkage? Why did he do this when linkage has made them millions. Are the players really wanting this battle over linkage and is it worth the fight?

Can somebody please tell me.......
Roman Hamrlik doesn't understand either.

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12-01-2012, 07:14 PM
  #348
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After this lock out is over I suspect that value of teams will be lower. The credibility of the league will be lower. Maybe it's just me, but an NHL franchise seems like a pretty speculative investment.
Given the bizarro economics of the NHL and sports franchises in general I suspect the opposite will be true. The value of teams will go up because demand to see them will have increased. Absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that.

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12-01-2012, 07:17 PM
  #349
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The players followed Goodenow over the cliff and it seems they are lining up to do it again.
They got a much better deal by waiting and have made that money back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gret99zky View Post
Given the bizarro economics of the NHL and sports franchises in general I suspect the opposite will be true. The value of teams will go up because demand to see them will have increased. Absence makes the heart grow fonder and all that.
They'll come back with a better CBA too, which should positively affect franchise value.

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12-01-2012, 07:18 PM
  #350
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Nick Kypreos‏@RealKyper

Nothing finalized on #NHL owner/ #NHLPA player only meeting but it looks like players open 2 idea if they can get some new owners involved

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