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NHL Lockout Thread X: The Leadership Has Left the Building

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Old
12-01-2012, 12:44 AM
  #151
KEEROLE Vatanen
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.
well i hope proving a point is worth 1.7 billion dollars of paychecks then

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12-01-2012, 12:52 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
It's really eyeopening to see people posting about the "incompetence" of Fehr, a guy considered one of the best negotiators in the history of his industry... as they defend Gary Bettman, who has a track record of failure that's nearly unparalleled.

He's not a negotiator, he's a litigator.

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12-01-2012, 12:55 AM
  #153
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.
You're 100% correct. I mean how dare these poor poor players, most of who will make more money in their 5 years of playing, even with a huge paycut, than most people will make in their lifetimes. All the first class flights and top notch training facilities must really make it hard to go to work everyday. I really do feel bad for the players.

F both sides honestly. Greed is obvious on BOTH sides. Please don't make it like these NHL players have it rough. For every 1 player playing in the NHL, there are hundreds of others who would kill to have their horrible lifestyles.

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12-01-2012, 01:29 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.
Yep, the players should get the entire 100% (all to give half your deserved reward?). Who's going to pay all the overhead? Hey how about everybody else in the world? You think hockey players work hard? Get real. Nowhere close to many other professions.

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12-01-2012, 01:31 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.
I have a similar thought - the players are necessary to pro hockey, the owners are not. In theory, the players could outsource the mgmt of the teams to some 3rd party(). There's capital required for
the arenas, a lot less for the actual teams.

Which begs the question, why then are the players in such a weak bargaining position? Because they did not plan ahead - they should have known the league would lock them out again and set aside much bigger funds and found an organized way to generate revenues while locked-out.

And for this, they have only themselves to blame.

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12-01-2012, 01:41 AM
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.
umm so pathetic and sickly sociapaths are the only reason the hockey players get paid as much as they do. What about all the other amazing athletes that have devoted the lives to being the best at what they do, but there isn't a professional league for them to make their millions in. Your post goes to show just how spoiled the hockey playing community has become.

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12-01-2012, 01:47 AM
  #157
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I guess I started a mini war with my comment lol.

I'll just say, I don't enjoy watching clutch and grab hockey where the scores end up 2-1 or 1-0. Tons of mediocre calls by these officials in every. single. game. It's just not good hockey to me. Some people enjoy these defensive games, I don't. I had a tough time staying awake during the 2nd round of the playoffs. It's gotten progressively worse mostly the past 2 seasons.

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12-01-2012, 01:55 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
You're not wrong, but at the same time you're reading a little too much into it (my point at least)

I'm not comparing hockey players to the rest of of America and Canada's elite. Just responding to a post that is essentially comparing (place any industrial union here) and their bosses to the NHLPA and their bosses.
Oh, I wasn't condemning anyone or any view: I was just making sure that, if people were making the comparisons, that accurate information was reflected. I was simply piggybacking off of your comment to do so, so in that regard, thanks!

In hockey parlance, you got the first assist.

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12-01-2012, 01:59 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.

Man, I wish I had that terrible life as a professional hockey player. Making all that money to play a game that I loved. I have been playing hockey for 12 years. I spent two years playing for the California Stars 18AAA team from 2009-2011 and now playing Junior A in the WSHL for the Ontario Avalanche. I will never play in the NHL but I sacrificed and committed myself to get to the level I am at because I love the game. These players are taking it for granted. If they truly loved the game, they wouldn't be *****ing about making millions of dollars. I'm not on either side, but if I were in there position I wouldn't be saying the things some of them are saying. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a fellow hockey player.

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12-01-2012, 02:02 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by DuklaNation View Post
Yep, the players should get the entire 100% (all to give half your deserved reward?). Who's going to pay all the overhead? Hey how about everybody else in the world? You think hockey players work hard? Get real. Nowhere close to many other professions.
so many things wrong with this... im speechless.

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12-01-2012, 02:14 AM
  #161
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I think all I want to know is what is the endgame plan for the PA on this.

at this point, it's reasonable to assume the PA could've ended this about 3-4 weeks ago, by accepting the NHL's make-whole portion of their offer(maybe asking for 100 mil more) as well as counteroffering with the contract rules being the same minus maybe an offer of 12 year soft limits+ the variants.

Nothing tells me the NHL wouldn't accept that or something extremely close to that. Especially with their comments saying they'd be lenient once HRR was settled.

Instead, the players lose more, okay, that's fine but for what cause or reason? Financially what are they looking to gain? and benefit wise they've already gained a great deal of small additions(single hotel rooms, more family benefits, health benefits etc.).

What solution will gain them more than just going directly off the owners offer? attacking the cap will lose the whole season, so what will allow them to gain more by losing 1.8b first?

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12-01-2012, 02:16 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I think all I want to know is what is the endgame plan for the PA on this.

at this point, it's reasonable to assume the PA could've ended this about 3-4 weeks ago, by accepting the NHL's make-whole portion of their offer(maybe asking for 100 mil more) as well as counteroffering with the contract rules being the same minus maybe an offer of 12 year soft limits+ the variants.

Nothing tells me the NHL wouldn't accept that or something extremely close to that. Especially with their comments saying they'd be lenient once HRR was settled.

Instead, the players lose more, okay, that's fine but for what cause or reason? Financially what are they looking to gain? and benefit wise they've already gained a great deal of small additions(single hotel rooms, more family benefits, health benefits etc.).

What solution will gain them more than just going directly off the owners offer? attacking the cap will lose the whole season, so what will allow them to gain more by losing 1.8b first?
If the players were bold enough to go for the cap, they could easily make back the money it cost them --- IF they win.

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12-01-2012, 02:20 AM
  #163
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If the players were bold enough to go for the cap, they could easily make back the money it cost them --- IF they win.
I see the potential in it and the idea of it. But that's the problem, IF they win, which realistically, i could see this going into the next season if they are actually serious about that.

But I dont think they are, I think the majority of the players dont want to go that far, as you're risking not one season, but at least part of a second potentially, but that would just be my opinion.

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12-01-2012, 02:24 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
If the players were bold enough to go for the cap, they could easily make back the money it cost them --- IF they win.
If they go for the cap, then the floor is gone too. The top 10% will make bank and the rest of the PA will deal for $250K or less.

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12-01-2012, 02:26 AM
  #165
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You're 100% correct. I mean how dare these poor poor players, most of who will make more money in their 5 years of playing, even with a huge paycut, than most people will make in their lifetimes. All the first class flights and top notch training facilities must really make it hard to go to work everyday. I really do feel bad for the players.

F both sides honestly. Greed is obvious on BOTH sides. Please don't make it like these NHL players have it rough. For every 1 player playing in the NHL, there are hundreds of others who would kill to have their horrible lifestyles.
There are probably millions of others but you know what? They aren't good enough for the NHL. Our players aren't one in a million, they're one in ten million! So if the fans pay to watch (no matter what the amount) the fair part goes to the players it's that simple. I will pay 1$ to each player on both teams (40$) to watch them play, honestly. To match your sarcasm, "woooww they get free tickets to THEIR game and a flight on a big shiny plane and the best workout equipment." Don't forget the ingrates even get a hotel room to sleep in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
I have a similar thought - the players are necessary to pro hockey, the owners are not. In theory, the players could outsource the mgmt of the teams to some 3rd party(). There's capital required for
the arenas, a lot less for the actual teams....
I wish there was a way the players could own the entire thing. Put their money together and when you join the league you buy into the organization. At this point I will never view the "NHL" and the Wings owner M. Illich in the same light. I'm making a statement too. I will not buy Little Ceasars pizza or Molson anymore, only Labatt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koss View Post
umm so pathetic and sickly sociapaths are the only reason the hockey players get paid as much as they do. What about all the other amazing athletes that have devoted the lives to being the best at what they do, but there isn't a professional league for them to make their millions in. Your post goes to show just how spoiled the hockey playing community has become.
If a sport isn't popular so be it. Ice hockey is the most grueling, dangerous, intense sport of the top 4. Why do they have to split like basketball or baseball? Who says? If the players insist on 60% than that's what they want and I say give it to them. Hockey players spoiled? What a joke. These guys time and time again prove they are humble, down to earth, conscientious professionals (ok except for Thorton .

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12-01-2012, 02:29 AM
  #166
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[What a joke. These guys time and time again prove they are humble, down to earth, conscientious professionals (ok except for Thorton .[/QUOTE]

Dude... They are people. Just because they are good at puck doesn't make them exceptional human beings.

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12-01-2012, 02:32 AM
  #167
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I have a similar thought - the players are necessary to pro hockey, the owners are not. In theory, the players could outsource the mgmt of the teams to some 3rd party(). There's capital required for
the arenas, a lot less for the actual teams
.

Which begs the question, why then are the players in such a weak bargaining position? Because they did not plan ahead - they should have known the league would lock them out again and set aside much bigger funds and found an organized way to generate revenues while locked-out.

And for this, they have only themselves to blame.
I just want to point out the fact that this is a chicken-and-the-egg argument: the only reason the owners are successful is because of the players.... yet the only reason the players are household names is because of the owners. In a sense, the owners are the ones who currently provide the means for the players to: a) become publicly recognized figures, and 2) earn enough capital that would be required to realistically form their own league, as you sort of suggest.

The owners & players really are equal partners, IMO. It's easy to say "I root for the players on the ice, therefore they hold all the leverage because they are the product"... but it's not a realistic way at looking both at these negotiations, nor at the relationship between the owners & players.

If you don't think that owning a team requires a lot of capital, then I propose to you: why are there not more players who are owners? Wouldn't it be a natural progression if it were so easy? Sure, some owners also own their arenas, but why aren't players (or groups of players combining their capital) eager to step in and buy teams for sale?

If players wanted to run their own teams, or thought it would be at all in their best interest, they'd be doing it already. The fact that they aren't shows that either:
a) they haven't figured that out by now, or
b) it's not profitable for them to own teams, or
c) it's not within their financial power to own teams, or
d) the players wouldn't be able to work together effectively in such an enterprise.

I doubt point A is correct, because as much as people on these boards like to bring it up, the players aren't stupid. That leaves either point B, C or D.
If Point B is correct, it reflects how broken the current system is for the owners.
If Point C is correct, it reflects how important the owners are to the current system.
If Point D is correct, it reflects why the players would/ could not start their own league, as you suggest they should.

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12-01-2012, 02:45 AM
  #168
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BonkTastic I want to emphasize the word you chose, "currently." I hear again and again..."without the owners...blah blah blah." These are the "current" owners. Just like players have come and gone so have owners. The NHL started as a game of shinny that got organized and then finally marketed. Owners are nothing but drug pushers in my mind, middle men. And by the way to answer the age old question- what came first, the chicken or the egg? The rooster!


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12-01-2012, 02:54 AM
  #169
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Dude... They are people. Just because they are good at puck doesn't make them exceptional human beings.
But it does put them in a position to be influential. They have to talk with the media, attend charities, give something back to their communities which about 100% of these guys have proven they will do. Their extremely special talent puts them on a pedestal of sorts. I think NHL players compared to the other big sports are easily the most approachable and average tempered. They don't flaunt around wanting to be rock stars like many other star athletes I see.

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12-01-2012, 02:59 AM
  #170
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BonkTastic I want to emphasize the word you chose, "currently." I hear again and again..."without the owners...blah blah blah." These are the "current" owners. Just like players have come and gone so have owners. The NHL started as a game of shinny that got organized and then finally marketed. Owners are nothing but drug pushers in my mind, middle men. And by the way to answer your question- what came first, the chicken or the egg? The rooster!
I'm going to assume that by pointing this out, you are inferring that there will be a change in this relationship in the future.

I made 4 points as to why I don't think a player-owned league would be viable in the current climate. There are certainly more variables in play, though those are the big ones, IMO. Which of those 4 points will change, in your opinion, so that the future plays out differently than it currently is?

Also: your comparison of owners to drug pushers is not only inaccurate, but also borderline offensive, and so exaggerated it can't be taken seriously. If you're going to speak in such generalized hyperboles, I'm afraid I won't be able to take your opinions terribly seriously.

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12-01-2012, 03:07 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
But it does put them in a position to be influential. They have to talk with the media, attend charities, give something back to their communities which about 100% of these guys have proven they will do. Their extremely special talent puts them on a pedestal of sorts. I think NHL players compared to the other big sports are easily the most approachable and average tempered. They don't flaunt around wanting to be rock stars like many other star athletes I see.
Having said that, the Rock star quality is creeping into the NHL. Despite that, who cares? There are awesome people who are extremely good what they do in every walk of life. 50/50 split seems fair.

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12-01-2012, 03:17 AM
  #172
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I'm going to assume that by pointing this out, you are inferring that there will be a change in this relationship in the future.

I made 4 points as to why I don't think a player-owned league would be viable in the current climate. There are certainly more variables in play, though those are the big ones, IMO. Which of those 4 points will change, in your opinion, so that the future plays out differently than it currently is?

Also: your comparison of owners to drug pushers is not only inaccurate, but also borderline offensive, and so exaggerated it can't be taken seriously. If you're going to speak in such generalized hyperboles, I'm afraid I won't be able to take your opinions terribly seriously.
No I liked that you chose to highlight that these are only the current owners. They didn't start the league, they inherited the team they own. Only trying to remind that they are not responsible for the players making money, they are involved and part of the equation I understand, but the NHL existed before them and will (hopefully) exist after they and the players of today are gone.

Interesting points questioning why the system is set up how it is.

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12-01-2012, 03:31 AM
  #173
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No I liked that you chose to highlight that these are only the current owners. They didn't start the league, they inherited the team they own. Only trying to remind that they are not responsible for the players making money, they are involved and part of the equation I understand, but the NHL existed before them and will (hopefully) exist after they and the players of today are gone.

Interesting points questioning why the system is set up how it is.
A very valid point, though I will highlight the fact that there are still a few teams out there who are original owners of their teams (did not inherit anything in that particular sense, though I do understand the point of inheriting "the current system", if that was in fact your point).

Clearly those few who are original owners are expansion-era owners (Minnesota and Columbus being the two that come to mind immediately).

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12-01-2012, 03:45 AM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
There are probably millions of others but you know what? They aren't good enough for the NHL. Our players aren't one in a million, they're one in ten million! So if the fans pay to watch (no matter what the amount) the fair part goes to the players it's that simple.
It's much easier to replace 700 players than 30 owners. There's another group of NHL stars playing in minor leagues and in Europe right now. If this season gets cancelled, bring in new players next year, just start over.

And what do you mean "our" players? You're... not involved with the NHL are you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
I wish there was a way the players could own the entire thing. Put their money together and when you join the league you buy into the organization.
Why would hockey players with zero business experience even want to own a team? Not that they could even afford a team... Yeah, that'll go over well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
If a sport isn't popular so be it. Ice hockey is the most grueling, dangerous, intense sport of the top 4. Why do they have to split like basketball or baseball? Who says? If the players insist on 60% than that's what they want and I say give it to them. Hockey players spoiled? What a joke. These guys time and time again prove they are humble, down to earth, conscientious professionals
humble, down to earth? rejecting $2.3m salaries. Yes, very humble and down to earth indeed...

What if they ask for 70%, 80%, or more?? just give it to them?

Q: "Why do they have to split like basketball or baseball?"
A: the NHL makes much less money. And the players, by forcing this lockout, are making the NHL product worth even less than before.

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12-01-2012, 04:29 AM
  #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
It's much easier to replace 700 players than 30 owners. There's another group of NHL stars playing in minor leagues and in Europe right now. If this season gets cancelled, bring in new players next year, just start over.

And what do you mean "our" players? You're... not involved with the NHL are you?




Why would hockey players with zero business experience even want to own a team? Not that they could even afford a team... Yeah, that'll go over well.




humble, down to earth? rejecting $2.3m salaries. Yes, very humble and down to earth indeed...

What if they ask for 70%, 80%, or more?? just give it to them?

Q: "Why do they have to split like basketball or baseball?"
A: the NHL makes much less money. And the players, by forcing this lockout, are making the NHL product worth even less than before.


It's mind boggling to watch the NHLPA literally piss away at least 1 billion in pay checks, if they miss the entire season at least 3 billion overall.

Amazing

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