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NHL Lockout Thread X: The Leadership Has Left the Building

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Old
12-01-2012, 04:52 AM
  #176
HankyZetts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
It's much easier to replace 700 players than 30 owners.
Is that a freaking joke? That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
There's another group of NHL stars playing in minor leagues and in Europe right now. If this season gets cancelled, bring in new players next year, just start over.
Yes, and those kids in junior, will be siding with their heroes and idols, you can bet that. Europeans as well, they'd be staying over there playing in their pro leagues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Why would hockey players with zero business experience even want to own a team?
The same reason you or I would.. to make a crap ton of money! Simple fact is, they can't afford it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
Q: "Why do they have to split like basketball or baseball?"
A: the NHL makes much less money. And the players, by forcing this lockout, are making the NHL product worth even less than before.
Oh stop it. The players aren't forcing anything. If they felt they were being treated fairly and as a partner, instead of like "cattle", then surely things would've played out differently.

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12-01-2012, 05:12 AM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post

Oh stop it. The players aren't forcing anything. If they felt they were being treated fairly and as a partner, instead of like "cattle", then surely things would've played out differently.
If the NHLPA spin on the NHL proposals wasn't so negative, maybe they would see that a 50/50 split and Make Whole are things you offer partners, not a union that you're trying to 'break'.

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12-01-2012, 06:46 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.
So you think players deserve 100% of HHR? LOL You don't think a guy that has bought a team has worked hard all his life to get to be able to buy a team? And enough with the cattle comment already he called himself and everyone who works for the owner cattle, and he's not an owner he is a 9th grade high school drop out. The owners are sociopaths but the guys on the ice elbowing, high sticking, fighting, boarding, cheapshoting each other are saints? And guess what if you are a mango grower who doesn't take his mangos to market directly you are going to get way less than the guy who sells them it costs a lot more to go sell the mango than to grow it. And by burning it down you'll be just like the players instead of getting market price for your goods you get nothing because you are intent on burning it down. But hey you made your point.

As for owners not being able to stand in players boots Mario says hi! It's also not their game. If they actually cared about the game they would have found a way to be playing instead of running around wearing puck Gary hats and acting like spoiled brats. I personally hope they kill the whole year so I'll get my money back from my season tickets and never waste another dime on these poor abused hockey players.

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12-01-2012, 07:06 AM
  #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Hockey in a Desert is going to take 40 years.
If the NHL wants to bankroll the team for 40 years, fine. Then Share the Damn Revenue.

But what's indefensible is this idea that the NHL puts teams in terrible places and then says, those 5 worst locations and poorly run franchises are the ones we are going to use to base our labor market

That's a scam,

Again, the NHL needs to decide if they are 30 independent businesses or 1 league.

They can't be 30 independents when it comes to meaningful revenue sharing and supporting new franchises -- and then be 1 league when it comes to conquering labor.
Then how do you purpose a union be a union with 750 independent contracts at negotiations.

The union needs to decide if they're about the hardliners or one union of 750 players with various contracts.

Your premise stinks.

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12-01-2012, 07:14 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by HankyZetts View Post
Is that a freaking joke? That may be the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!!



Yes, and those kids in junior, will be siding with their heroes and idols, you can bet that. Europeans as well, they'd be staying over there playing in their pro leagues.



The same reason you or I would.. to make a crap ton of money! Simple fact is, they can't afford it.



Oh stop it. The players aren't forcing anything. If they felt they were being treated fairly and as a partner, instead of like "cattle", then surely things would've played out differently.
He's right though. Where are you going to find 30 billionaires willing to have an ice hockey play thing?

Lots more people that would be willing to play in the NHL.

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12-01-2012, 07:50 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
4. Why do they have to split like basketball or baseball? Who says? If the players insist on 60% than that's what they want and I say give it to them.
Give it to them. See how they like a 6 team league. Meanwhile the rest of the league play under a $40m cap.

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12-01-2012, 07:53 AM
  #182
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brodeur discusses the lockout:

http://www.faceoff.com/sports/Martin...345/story.html

Quote:
“Whenever people talk about the possibility of a lockout, trust me, there’s a lockout happening,” Brodeur said on Friday, returning a text message with a half-hour phone call.
“I’ve heard ‘lockout’ three times in my career and three times we’ve been locked out.”

...

“It was obvious to me that a lockout was going to happen,” Brodeur said. “But I didn’t feel the differences between both parties were so great as to jeopardize the whole season like the owners are trying to do right now. ...
“I still really believe there’s hope to salvage something from our season and I hope everybody will come to their senses and try to figure something out. We’ve come a long way since 2004 to get this game to a better state as far as competitive balance and everything else. I didn’t think we’d still be talking about this lockout in December. That’s the thing that bothers me the most.”

...

“Understand this: Bettman is not commissioner of the game, he’s commissioner for the owners,” Brodeur said in a measured tone. “I have a hard time when you go through so many work stoppages under the same leadership. But he has the power. Owners are the ones who put him in office to run the ship.
“Like players, I’m sure owners have different agendas, different situations. A team like Winnipeg was striving last year and can’t wait to keep going. I’m sure they have a different perspective on what’s going on than some other teams in this negotiation.
“I guess for the NHL, it’s tough to ask for too many opinions,” he said, pausing for effect. “You just hope that people who represent the league and the players are really talking on behalf of the rest of their group. Every player is well informed about everything that’s going on. I hope all the owners are, as well.”


Last edited by TMI: 12-01-2012 at 11:00 AM. Reason: posted entirely way too much of the article
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Old
12-01-2012, 08:51 AM
  #183
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Originally Posted by frivolousz21 View Post
It's mind boggling to watch the NHLPA literally piss away at least 1 billion in pay checks, if they miss the entire season at least 3 billion overall.

Amazing
oh come on they are athletes. They compete not for the love of money but to win!

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Old
12-01-2012, 08:55 AM
  #184
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Originally Posted by PBPantherfan View Post
So you think players deserve 100% of HHR? LOL You don't think a guy that has bought a team has worked hard all his life to get to be able to buy a team? And enough with the cattle comment already he called himself and everyone who works for the owner cattle, and he's not an owner he is a 9th grade high school drop out. The owners are sociopaths but the guys on the ice elbowing, high sticking, fighting, boarding, cheapshoting each other are saints? And guess what if you are a mango grower who doesn't take his mangos to market directly you are going to get way less than the guy who sells them it costs a lot more to go sell the mango than to grow it. And by burning it down you'll be just like the players instead of getting market price for your goods you get nothing because you are intent on burning it down. But hey you made your point.

As for owners not being able to stand in players boots Mario says hi! It's also not their game. If they actually cared about the game they would have found a way to be playing instead of running around wearing puck Gary hats and acting like spoiled brats. I personally hope they kill the whole year so I'll get my money back from my season tickets and never waste another dime on these poor abused hockey players.
How about 60/40, near the expired CBA split? I don't hold Devalano's analogy against him, it was a very poor choice of words but he can't take it back now. My comment about sociopaths is based on known theories that the type of megalomaniacs who would accrue that much wealth and justify the means to get it have a mental disorder.

True I would rather work with a distributor and get my product out than burn the whole thing down to spite who knows what. But a lot of posters don't understand that the players have proven it's not about money, it's the principle. That's why they will be proud to lose much money, it's a powerful statement. I've been faced with the same dilemma numerous times, I could make good cash with a certain individual but there is a clash of ideals and if the respect isn't there busi ness cannot happen.

I'd be happy with a scaled down NHL. Less player development, less teams, staff, advertising, less games, less revenue/profit for all. Even then IMO the players still deserve a slightly bigger slice of the pie. I'll say it again: The owners are such stupid bosses because they won't give the small concessions it will take to make these players able to hold their heads high.

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12-01-2012, 09:26 AM
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.
What if the business man built the produce stand at the market? And paid for ads, and electricity, and rent... and paid for your R&D and paid the doctor when you got hurt working on the farm? And paid for your tools and overalls and other farm equipment? So all you had to do was worry about growing mangoes. And then one day he says hey, people are buying mangoes at a record pace but man, I'm not making enough money to stay afloat out here. Since I'm taking on all the risk, and paying for everything, how about we split everything 50/50 from here on out?

Would you still burn down the orchard?

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12-01-2012, 09:29 AM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Hockey in a Desert is going to take 40 years.
If the NHL wants to bankroll the team for 40 years, fine. Then Share the Damn Revenue.

But what's indefensible is this idea that the NHL puts teams in terrible places and then says, those 5 worst locations and poorly run franchises are the ones we are going to use to base our labor market

That's a scam,

Again, the NHL needs to decide if they are 30 independent businesses or 1 league.

They can't be 30 independents when it comes to meaningful revenue sharing and supporting new franchises -- and then be 1 league when it comes to conquering labor.
You're ignoring 2 key facts regarding revenue sharing. First the league did incerase revenue sharing in their proposals which is why the NHLPA backed off on that being a key factor in their negotiations. THey aren't nearly as far apart as they used to b showing the NHL does in fact recognize the need for revenue sharing. Secondly there's only 3 teams with profits high enough to make any significant revenue sharing worthwhile. Without the presence of a large US tv contract to split like the big 3 leagues do there simply isn't the same wiggle room. There are other constructive ideas like splitting gate receipts but that doubles the punishment on some teams as they share their lucrative ticket sales in their home arena and have to share minimal gate receipts in struggling markets.

You also failed to address my point on where you'd like to relocate 12 franchises to and bypassed the point regarding the Canadian market in the 90's. Do you admit it would have been a mistake to follow your move the franchise theory or do you stand by that? If so do you honestly believe the NHL would be better off without the Cnadian market or trying to rebuild it verse the extended measures taken in the 90's?

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12-01-2012, 09:57 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
Good for the players! Like Fehr said, if the NHL simply will not negotiate then the only step is decertification or legal alternatives. I respect the NHLPA for taking this as far as it will go to prove their point.

As a relative noob at HF Boards one thing I've never heard much about is the bad blood between Bettman/the owners vs. the players (although I did know the fans hated Bettman ). It's boiling over now.

As a fellow ice hockey player I must side with the players. You dedicate your life, playing AAA hockey your entire adolescence, to Juniors, Pro, to the big time, all to give HALF your deserved reward to a group of pathetic, sickly (yet filthy rich) sociopaths who want to call you cattle? It's like I grow a crop of mangoes and because some business man can distribute them effectively he gets 50% of my product? No way bro. I'll burn down the entire orchard to prove a point that money is nothing and you'll get none of my services.

The owners can't stand in a hockey players boots for one second. I can't believe they would underestimate a group of players as hardcore and insane as NHL players are. It's THEIR game. THEY are what makes the NHL. I am so proud they are not backing down. I respect and admire the players now so much more than before this lockout. Yea I miss watching them play as we all do but I trust in whatever makes these guys satisfied enough to suit up again.
What point are they trying to prove. I am still unclear on this.

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Old
12-01-2012, 10:09 AM
  #188
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so apparently today we will find out the answer from the players about if they will be having a face to face with just the owners no reps involved.

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12-01-2012, 10:12 AM
  #189
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so apparently today we will find out the answer from the players about if they will be having a face to face with just the owners no reps involved.
NHL may try new tack in talks

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/range...6BRRqVoy8YyTZK

Quote:
The NHL Players Association is expected to offer several conditions which would lead to brass-free direct talks between the leagueís owners and players in a bid to break Lockout III.
...

The union is said to be taking a ĎWhy not?í attitude rather than giving an enthusiastic endorsement of the concept.

Because of the vulnerable position such talks would put the union in, the Players Association will require the talks not be a negotiation, but rather a conversation in which participants can express themselves, The Postís Larry Brooks has learned.

In addition, the union will insist the owners involved not include the four on the negotiating committee, led by Bostonís Jeremy Jacobs.

The union is expected to also insist the league have no say in designating which players attend the talks, a point the league is said to want.

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12-01-2012, 10:13 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
What point are they trying to prove. I am still unclear on this.
That they can't be pushed around! Come on, they have to show that the big bad owners that supply them with millions of $, free hotel stays, free medical staff, and free equipment can't just walk all over them anymore!! I mean, that's worth damaging the greatest hockey league in the world for, right? Right??

****ing morons.

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12-01-2012, 10:15 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Potrzebie View Post
What if the business man built the produce stand at the market? And paid for ads, and electricity, and rent... and paid for your R&D and paid the doctor when you got hurt working on the farm? And paid for your tools and overalls and other farm equipment? So all you had to do was worry about growing mangoes. And then one day he says hey, people are buying mangoes at a record pace but man, I'm not making enough money to stay afloat out here. Since I'm taking on all the risk, and paying for everything, how about we split everything 50/50 from here on out?

Would you still burn down the orchard?
He might not, but the players would.

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12-01-2012, 10:16 AM
  #192
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I posted this 6 weeks ago, and amazingly, it still applies...

I just have no patience for any of this from either side. Rich people getting upset because they might lose the ability to add a ferrari to their collection of sports cars. Give me a ****ing break. They should be happy that they get rich playing a game in this economy. And I love how the people who pay these clowns (we the fans) are not even part of the equation. **** all of them.

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12-01-2012, 10:22 AM
  #193
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"In addition, the union will insist the owners involved not include the four on the negotiating committee, led by Bostonís Jeremy Jacobs.

The union is expected to also insist the league have no say in designating which players attend the talks, a point the league is said to want
."

NHLPA speak, "One rule for us, a different rule for you."

There can no longer be any doubt. The NHLPA are internet trolls!

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12-01-2012, 10:27 AM
  #194
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Quote:
In addition, the union will insist the owners involved not include the four on the negotiating committee, led by Bostonís Jeremy Jacobs.

The union is expected to also insist the league have no say in designating which players attend the talks, a point the league is said to want
So they must be able to say what owners cannot attend, AND they insist the owners cannot have a say in what players can/cannot attend.

Nice.

IMO, the PA should be able to name 3 owners not to attend and the owners should be able to name 3 player reps not able to attend. Eliminate the most difficult hardliners from each side.

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12-01-2012, 10:28 AM
  #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
"In addition, the union will insist the owners involved not include the four on the negotiating committee, led by Bostonís Jeremy Jacobs.

The union is expected to also insist the league have no say in designating which players attend the talks, a point the league is said to want
."

NHLPA speak, "One rule for us, a different rule for you."

There can no longer be any doubt. The NHLPA are internet trolls!
That's how this whole thing has been.

The PA WILL REQUIRE this. The PA INSISTS upon this and that.

Just like how they want guaranteed raises, or want to share the spoils but none of the risk. It's like they want to play that "I win" card game from Big Daddy where no matter what happens, the rules change so "I win!"

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12-01-2012, 10:30 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by hockeyisforeveryone View Post
How about 60/40, near the expired CBA split? I don't hold Devalano's analogy against him, it was a very poor choice of words but he can't take it back now. My comment about sociopaths is based on known theories that the type of megalomaniacs who would accrue that much wealth and justify the means to get it have a mental disorder.

True I would rather work with a distributor and get my product out than burn the whole thing down to spite who knows what. But a lot of posters don't understand that the players have proven it's not about money, it's the principle. That's why they will be proud to lose much money, it's a powerful statement. I've been faced with the same dilemma numerous times, I could make good cash with a certain individual but there is a clash of ideals and if the respect isn't there busi ness cannot happen.

I'd be happy with a scaled down NHL. Less player development, less teams, staff, advertising, less games, less revenue/profit for all. Even then IMO the players still deserve a slightly bigger slice of the pie. I'll say it again: The owners are such stupid bosses because they won't give the small concessions it will take to make these players able to hold their heads high.
So the player's pay has almost doubled since the last lockout and you think they deserve a bigger percentage? Are you kidding? And here's the definition of Sociopath for you.
so∑ci∑o∑path

noun, Psychiatry.
a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Your definition doesn't fit and your comment calling owners sociopaths is way worse than Devellano calling players "cattle".

You would work with a distributor but when he came to you and said hey listen in the mango industry I need to lower my costs so we can both be profitable you are still going to be making a lot more profit than me but I need to make some as well you'd tell him to go F himself on principle? And that principle is he wants to make some money and you just want yours? And I can guarantee you in a few years the guys who lost millions and the guys who ended their careers aren't going to be proud they are going to be thinking man was I stupid. Instead of a 12% salary loss I gave up 100% to get what?

You say you are for the players and in the same breath you turn around and say you want a scaled down NHL with less teams which is bad for players because there aren't as many jobs. The owners are stupid bosses for making a bunch of guys millionaires for playing a game? And to turn it around on you the players are a bunch of stupid employees for not making such small concessions that would allow their bosses to run a profitable business. And in turn hurt their salaries now and in the future by damaging the game that they love so much. In essence cutting off your nose to spite your face but you did it on principle so hold your head high.

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12-01-2012, 10:35 AM
  #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhoenixx View Post
"In addition, the union will insist the owners involved not include the four on the negotiating committee, led by Bostonís Jeremy Jacobs.

The union is expected to also insist the league have no say in designating which players attend the talks, a point the league is said to want
."

NHLPA speak, "One rule for us, a different rule for you."

There can no longer be any doubt. The NHLPA are internet trolls!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacOfNiagara View Post
So they must be able to say what owners cannot attend, AND they insist the owners cannot have a say in what players can/cannot attend.

Nice.

IMO, the PA should be able to name 3 owners not to attend and the owners should be able to name 3 player reps not able to attend. Eliminate the most difficult hardliners from each side.
i wonder what specific players the NHL doesn't want there?

in any event, for the pa to say "we want to control who attends for the owners, but the owners can't control who attends for the players" is just stupidity

i think getting the hardliners from both sides out of the way would be productive.

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12-01-2012, 10:38 AM
  #198
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i wonder what specific players the NHL doesn't want there?

in any event, for the pa to say "we want to control who attends for the owners, but the owners can't control who attends for the players" is just stupidity

i think getting the hardliners from both sides out of the way would be productive.
the owners side is easy, they are the only 4 owners that go to the meetings i believe, jacobs, leiopold, and 2 others that i can't think of.

for the players i believe campoli would be one

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12-01-2012, 10:50 AM
  #199
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From: @BillSimmons
Sent: Dec 1, 2012 11:23a

It's December 1st. No NHL. This is starting to become insane. You're really going to cancel 2 seasons 8 years apart, NHL owners???? Morons.

sent via Twitter for BlackBerryģ
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/BillSimmons/statu...11680335605761

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12-01-2012, 11:04 AM
  #200
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Guys, when asking for the terms of a meeting like that you treat it like any other negotiation. Tell them what you want. Of course they want to pick which owners will be there, but not allow the NHL to pick which players will be there. I'm sure the NHL would love to pick which owners and players will meet as well.

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I don't know about cards, but, uh, I think these four-fives beat a full house. Hey banker, cash me out, yo.
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