HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Referendum starts process (against) Glendale arena deal with Jamison

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-06-2012, 12:51 AM
  #176
OthmarAmmann
Money making machine
 
OthmarAmmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,539
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
I already agreed and subscribe to the siphon effect. Essentially, the only new activity is the construction itself which is limited and of short duration.

I agree that asking for a larger body to handle the cost is beyond the reach. I wouldn't have even dreamed of suggesting Maricopa County. What I was saying regarding Glendale is that they weren't the best municipality in the area to handle it. They likely would have been better off in Scottsdale/Tempe which have a higher density of upper middle and upper class nearby.
Legend or another can probably provide better detail. The westside was the original objective, but Glendale was the only jurisdiction that stepped up. Had it not been for CoG the Coyotes would have relocated over 10 years ago. CoG reached an agreement with Ellman in less than a month if I recall correctly. Great decision making...

With the arena already built it's unfortunate that CoG couldn't get other Valley municipalities to help with the burden of the "management fee". The benefits of all of these investments have accrued to the other municipalities. Hell, I think CoG even lost money on the Superbowl!

OthmarAmmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 03:59 AM
  #177
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by aqib View Post
Well you have the US Airways Arena downtown which is the other major league venue that theoretically you would be competing with for the A-List acts these days. Then you have the Suns old arena, the arena where ASU basketball plays for the B-List acts. Even New Jersey found having IZod Center (Nets/Devils old arena) and Prudential Center competing was too much.
Veterans Memorial rarely holds events that would compete with USAir Center or jobing.com Arena. The new arena at Grand Canyon University does, but it's limited to 7,000 seating for concerts. Also Wells Fargo (at ASU) doesn't book that many non-sporting events (from what I could find).

Currently the biggest problem with jobing.com getting acts booked is the more with the current arena management (NHL) than anything.

~~Making note NOT to help steer the thread topic off course any more~~~

TheLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 04:04 AM
  #178
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
In other news......

In other news (that IS on topic.....)

Mr. Jones was at the library today (Tuesday) gathering signatures. He was alone. Managed to get three signatures in a one hour period. Not to say there were others working elsewhere, or helping him earlier in the day.

Film at 11.

TheLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 07:24 AM
  #179
powerstuck
User Registered
 
powerstuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
In other news (that IS on topic.....)

Mr. Jones was at the library today (Tuesday) gathering signatures. He was alone. Managed to get three signatures in a one hour period. Not to say there were others working elsewhere, or helping him earlier in the day.

Film at 11.
Legend do you think that the time of the year (Christmas) could help Jones and company with signatures ? Someone suggested earlier in this thread that it could because people go shopping a bit more and so on.

I know that in July some of posters said that it was quite an odd time of year to gather signatures, outside, with 100+ temperatures which ended proving right because he failed on first attempt.

powerstuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:05 AM
  #180
NHLfan4life
Who is PKP???
 
NHLfan4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Glendale
Country: United States
Posts: 688
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Legend do you think that the time of the year (Christmas) could help Jones and company with signatures ? Someone suggested earlier in this thread that it could because people go shopping a bit more and so on.

I know that in July some of posters said that it was quite an odd time of year to gather signatures, outside, with 100+ temperatures which ended proving right because he failed on first attempt.
I know you are addressing Legend but from what I've gathered living in Glendale 37+ years, the summer time is a better time for traffic at the library. People want to either go to the movies, or do indoor activities. There will be a swell of activity this month for college finals but not much else that I can think of.

I think the difference will be how well the effort to help Mr. Jones in other places is organized. Still a daunting task either way no matter what the weather is like.

NHLfan4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 10:52 AM
  #181
powerstuck
User Registered
 
powerstuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHLfan4life View Post
I know you are addressing Legend but from what I've gathered living in Glendale 37+ years, the summer time is a better time for traffic at the library. People want to either go to the movies, or do indoor activities. There will be a swell of activity this month for college finals but not much else that I can think of.

I think the difference will be how well the effort to help Mr. Jones in other places is organized. Still a daunting task either way no matter what the weather is like.
Thanks. And I must say, if I was about to do a signature rally I would not position myself at the library.

powerstuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 11:11 AM
  #182
cbcwpg
Registered User
 
cbcwpg's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Between the Pipes
Country: United Nations
Posts: 5,696
vCash: 350
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Thanks. And I must say, if I was about to do a signature rally I would not position myself at the library.
With all this talk about closing libraries, people might think they are already closed, hence no signatures to collect.

Question: Is there any stipulation in Arizona / Glendale law that says you can only collect signatures on public or city property? IE: If Jones tried to setup and collect signatures at the Tanger Mall, would he be allowed to? Or would they give him the boot?

cbcwpg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 11:45 AM
  #183
Whileee
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 7,671
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
With all this talk about closing libraries, people might think they are already closed, hence no signatures to collect.

Question: Is there any stipulation in Arizona / Glendale law that says you can only collect signatures on public or city property? IE: If Jones tried to setup and collect signatures at the Tanger Mall, would he be allowed to? Or would they give him the boot?

At this point, it seems that the petition drive is nothing more than a symbolic gesture by Jones. He's clearly worked up about the issue and has the time and inner motivation to make an effort. But I can't see how this petition drive can come close to the number of signatures required. They would need a well-financed and multi-pronged effort. The bottom line is that I don't see any of the support that would be needed, so the petition for a referendum does not pose an impediment to finalizing the lease with Jamison.

Whileee is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 12:30 PM
  #184
powerstuck
User Registered
 
powerstuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Quebec City
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
With all this talk about closing libraries, people might think they are already closed, hence no signatures to collect.

Question: Is there any stipulation in Arizona / Glendale law that says you can only collect signatures on public or city property? IE: If Jones tried to setup and collect signatures at the Tanger Mall, would he be allowed to? Or would they give him the boot?
Wouldn't Tanger Mall or what ever other business be considered a private proprety thus the answer would depend on how the owner of such business reacts to the cause ?

powerstuck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 12:44 PM
  #185
XX
... Waiting
 
XX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: 48th State
Country: United States
Posts: 27,094
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post

I agree that asking for a larger body to handle the cost is beyond the reach. I wouldn't have even dreamed of suggesting Maricopa County. What I was saying regarding Glendale is that they weren't the best municipality in the area to handle it. They likely would have been better off in Scottsdale/Tempe which have a higher density of upper middle and upper class nearby.
Scottsdale was offered the chance to have the arena first. Los Arcos mall was defunct and scheduled for demolition, so it was an ideal plot of land. The site is about as central as you get in Phoenix (downtown is NOT central). Also of note is that it would be within driving distance for players and close to the IceDen where they practice now. Ellman couldn't get the deal he wanted so he went to Glendale, who let him have his crown jewel; Westgate. It was going to be amazing, but the housing market and economy had other ideas.

Quote:
Scottsdale got SkySong, a fledging office park with a giant playground canopy for $120 million.

Glendale got the Phoenix Coyotes, an arena and Westgate City Center for $230 million, a whopping debt that is $50 million more than the city's original bet to lure NHL hockey across town.

The man in the middle of this development power play was Steve Ellman. Just this week, Ellman lost ownership of much of Westgate next to the Jobing. com Arena where the Coyotes are on thin ice for staying in the desert.

Former Scottsdale City Councilman David Ortega, who was caught in Ellman's political crossfire, said the financial wreckage is devastating for Scottsdale and Glendale.

"(Ellman) left a trail of people who will be paying the price for this for a long time," Ortega said.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...#ixzz2EIaCzwC2

XX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 06:39 PM
  #186
kdb209
Global Moderator
 
kdb209's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,368
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Wouldn't Tanger Mall or what ever other business be considered a private proprety thus the answer would depend on how the owner of such business reacts to the cause ?
This is a state-by-state issue. In CA, shopping malls are considered public spaces and protesters and petition gatherers must be permitted - however this does not apply to the property & parking lot of a single store (ie a Costco/Walmart can regulate/prohibit those activities at a free standing store). There is no such right in AZ.

After initially holding that a privately owned business district and a shopping mall could be considered public spaces - giving first amendment rights for protest and petitions - the SCOTUS later reversed itself in Hudgens v. NLRB, 424 U.S. 507 (1976), finding "there is no open-ended invitation to the public to use the Center for any and all purposes, however incompatible with the interests of both the stores and the shoppers whom they serve.".

However the Court later upheld in Robbins v. Pruneyard (an appeal of a CA State Supreme Court decision) that state courts could force public access under state constitutions or statute - making it a state by state issue.

The AZ Court of Appeals held that the AZ State Constitution did not convey the right for public access in Fiesta Mall Venture et al. v. Mecham Recall Committee, 159 Ari. 371, 767 P.2d 719 (1989),

More gory details for those interested.

http://www.freedomforum.org/template...cumentID=14193

http://dirt.umkc.edu/files/prune.html

http://az.findacase.com/research/wfr...0002.AZ.htm/qx


Last edited by kdb209: 12-06-2012 at 06:51 PM.
kdb209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 06:43 PM
  #187
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Wouldn't Tanger Mall or what ever other business be considered a private proprety thus the answer would depend on how the owner of such business reacts to the cause ?
Can't say how AZ addresses this but it would make sense if you want to collect signatures on private property you'd need the property owner's permission. [Edit: I'll yield to kdb's post above on this ]

AIUI.... The Prop 457 people used paid petitioners to go door to door to get some of their signatures. If Jones has the Tea Party's help they could be doing something along those lines. But I'm only speculating about that.

TheLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 06:55 PM
  #188
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by powerstuck View Post
Legend do you think that the time of the year (Christmas) could help Jones and company with signatures ? Someone suggested earlier in this thread that it could because people go shopping a bit more and so on.

I know that in July some of posters said that it was quite an odd time of year to gather signatures, outside, with 100+ temperatures which ended proving right because he failed on first attempt.
Right now the weather here as been fantastic (70's and 80's). So camping out at the library isn't all that bad. However at this time of year, I would think the shopping malls and other retail outlets would be a better location to get signatures.

I honestly think Ken Jones really doesn't have any idea as to the most effective way to make a petition drive succeed. I think he was counting on GWI for assistance with it, since he allowed them to use him as their designated "concerned Glendale citizen" in their suit against the ordinance. He seemed real disgusted with GWI at the end when his partner (who had a connection with GWI) bailed on him.

TheLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 07:12 PM
  #189
TheLegend
Megathread Refugee
 
TheLegend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: The Anxiety Closet
Country: United States
Posts: 3,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas L View Post
Legend or another can probably provide better detail. The westside was the original objective, but Glendale was the only jurisdiction that stepped up. Had it not been for CoG the Coyotes would have relocated over 10 years ago. CoG reached an agreement with Ellman in less than a month if I recall correctly. Great decision making...

With the arena already built it's unfortunate that CoG couldn't get other Valley municipalities to help with the burden of the "management fee". The benefits of all of these investments have accrued to the other municipalities. Hell, I think CoG even lost money on the Superbowl!
Glendale had the most vacant land available along the Loop 101 corridor at the time. However I think redeveloping Los Arcos in Scottsdale was originally Ellman's primary objective. The city went through two elections seeking voter approval for the project, which they got. But, unlike Glendale, the Scottsdale city council wanted to know more about Ellman's financial stability and when they didn't get it, they refused to sign off on the project.

You are correct that if Glendale hadn't stepped up, Ellman was ready to unload the franchise to Paul Allen and Portland (OR).

Regarding the Super Bowl.... they did lose money overall on the first one because of the up front spending they had to make upgrading their police department to provide security for the event. That and restaurant/hotel development near the stadium was late getting started.

TheLegend is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 07:20 PM
  #190
awfulwaffle
Registered User
 
awfulwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 6,240
vCash: 500
Why was this even a thread? He won't get the signatures.

awfulwaffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 07:25 PM
  #191
awfulwaffle
Registered User
 
awfulwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 6,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Veterans Memorial rarely holds events that would compete with USAir Center or jobing.com Arena. The new arena at Grand Canyon University does, but it's limited to 7,000 seating for concerts. Also Wells Fargo (at ASU) doesn't book that many non-sporting events (from what I could find).

Currently the biggest problem with jobing.com getting acts booked is the more with the current arena management (NHL) than anything.

~~Making note NOT to help steer the thread topic off course any more~~~
Jobing.com is probably the best venue to host an event in the valley. US Airways really isn't that great, the only thing going for it is the location and people being able to use the light rail to get there. Jobing.com is a much nicer venue though in my opinion when comparing the two. A responsible manager should be able to book big events and provide revenue to Glendale and the arena.

awfulwaffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-06-2012, 09:04 PM
  #192
NORiculous
Registered User
 
NORiculous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,656
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by awfulwaffle View Post
Why was this even a thread? He won't get the signatures.
I was wondering the same thing... Even if I know nothing of the dude.

3 people in one hour...

Let's say he has had, what, 20 days total?
If he works 10 hours a day... That means that he should get, keeping the same pace, about 600 people to sign. So if he get two buddies that do the same and, I don't know what they do for a living with all that free time... They will get 1800 people to sign.

How much workless buddies does he need to fix the finance of the CoG?

NORiculous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:05 PM
  #193
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,268
vCash: 500
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...Top+Stories%29

Update: effort falls short of collecting needed signatures to proceed.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:42 PM
  #194
Mightygoose
Registered User
 
Mightygoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ajax, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,268
vCash: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...Top+Stories%29

Update: effort falls short of collecting needed signatures to proceed.
No big surprise here but at least it's now official. Now the moment of truth is here to see if Mr. Jamison can close the deal as there doesn't appear to anything standing in his way now.

Mightygoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:58 PM
  #195
awfulwaffle
Registered User
 
awfulwaffle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Country: United States
Posts: 6,240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by XX View Post
Scottsdale was offered the chance to have the arena first. Los Arcos mall was defunct and scheduled for demolition, so it was an ideal plot of land. The site is about as central as you get in Phoenix (downtown is NOT central). Also of note is that it would be within driving distance for players and close to the IceDen where they practice now. Ellman couldn't get the deal he wanted so he went to Glendale, who let him have his crown jewel; Westgate. It was going to be amazing, but the housing market and economy had other ideas.




http://www.azcentral.com/community/s...#ixzz2EIaCzwC2
I have to disagree about Scottsdale being "central" location.

The only central about it is that most of the people with money live out in the East Valley, and that's a fair argument as far as "central" goes.

But I live out in Buckeye, and I have extra money to spend, but a Scottsdale trip would take me more than an hour.

awfulwaffle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 02:19 PM
  #196
LadyStanley
Elasmobranchology-go
 
LadyStanley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: North of the Tank
Country: United States
Posts: 55,268
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightygoose View Post
No big surprise here but at least it's now official. Now the moment of truth is here to see if Mr. Jamison can close the deal as there doesn't appear to anything standing in his way now.
Except GWI.

LadyStanley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 02:22 PM
  #197
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pacific NW
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,055
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyStanley View Post
Except GWI.
Exactly. And I do believe they'll come out swinging should he actually close the
transaction with the NHL & sign off on the Lease/AMC in January or whenever.

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 02:35 PM
  #198
aqib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Right now the weather here as been fantastic (70's and 80's). So camping out at the library isn't all that bad. However at this time of year, I would think the shopping malls and other retail outlets would be a better location to get signatures.

I honestly think Ken Jones really doesn't have any idea as to the most effective way to make a petition drive succeed. I think he was counting on GWI for assistance with it, since he allowed them to use him as their designated "concerned Glendale citizen" in their suit against the ordinance. He seemed real disgusted with GWI at the end when his partner (who had a connection with GWI) bailed on him.
The best way would have been to go door to door. Unless there are events that primarily attract Glendale residents the problem you run into at malls is you would have people who weren't Glendale residents. They should have been able to get the list of registered voters from whoever it is that runs elections out there. That way they would have only had to go to the homes of people who were registered.

So the only hurdles left is Jamison having the money and a potential Goldwater challenge.

aqib is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:14 PM
  #199
Mightygoose
Registered User
 
Mightygoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ajax, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,268
vCash: 514
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Exactly. And I do believe they'll come out swinging should he actually close the
transaction with the NHL & sign off on the Lease/AMC in January or whenever.
GWI has been pretty quiet to date. I find kind of surprising that they're has been no Sabre rattling going on like during the Hulsizer deal. Though his deal is different of course, I thought the GW folks would have made their presence more up front this time around.

We'll watch with great interest

Mightygoose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 05:03 PM
  #200
aqib
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,357
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLegend View Post
Veterans Memorial rarely holds events that would compete with USAir Center or jobing.com Arena. The new arena at Grand Canyon University does, but it's limited to 7,000 seating for concerts. Also Wells Fargo (at ASU) doesn't book that many non-sporting events (from what I could find).

Currently the biggest problem with jobing.com getting acts booked is the more with the current arena management (NHL) than anything.

~~Making note NOT to help steer the thread topic off course any more~~~
Going off topic is how we roll around here.

Just because the venue is 18K seats doesn't mean it can't be downsized for smaller events. It happens all the time you put a curtain down the middle and your 18K seat venue is now a 9K seat venue.

Philly somehow managed to have the Spectrum up for 13 years after moving across the street to their new arena and they had events in both.

aqib is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:34 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.