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Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VI

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Old
12-07-2012, 09:58 PM
  #151
orcatown
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Curious when Noel will get around to fixing that PK. It seems to only get worse as the season progresses.
Mean Arneil???

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12-07-2012, 09:59 PM
  #152
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The Wolves have blown so many offensive chances by going offside.

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12-07-2012, 10:02 PM
  #153
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Mean Arneil???
Indeed.

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12-07-2012, 10:03 PM
  #154
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I remember that, I actually remember being satisfied for passing on Tatar, because Detroit wanted Rodin... haha. you think they would swap now?

They wanted Rodin?

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12-07-2012, 10:07 PM
  #155
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VAN scouting at its finest.


Anything DET related is just a reminder how far this organization is from mimicking them as far as drafting and development goes. It ends up being an eye-opener every time. Quite maddening.
Ever since we fluked Edler it's been all "Detroit this, Detroit that. Let's be more like Detroit! Long term project, overage draftees ftw!!!!!!!"

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12-07-2012, 10:11 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Ever since we fluked Edler it's been all "Detroit this, Detroit that. Let's be more like Detroit! Long term project, overage draftees ftw!!!!!!!"


Without the results.

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12-07-2012, 10:20 PM
  #157
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I wouldn't worry too much about the system - lot of value found in the last few years during a period of success. I fear the Wolves aren't the greatest environment for them, but they'll have to bear it until the NHL re-opens its doors for business. Hopefully Aquilini can arrange a better farm team following this season.

I don't know which prospects make the Canucks, but I think whoever does will make you guys appreciate Vigneault in comparison.


Last edited by Wisp: 12-07-2012 at 10:33 PM.
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12-07-2012, 10:24 PM
  #158
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I had thought the wolves were gonna be good this year. Wow was I wrong.

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Old
12-07-2012, 10:24 PM
  #159
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Makes me appreciate Vigneault.
As much as I criticize Vigneault, at least he has never been as clearly out of his depth (not even close) as Arniel is right now. Just brutal — players have either tuned him out completely or this is actually how he wants them to play, either way it's a total disaster.

I miss MacT and Claude Noel...

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12-07-2012, 10:34 PM
  #160
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The two prospects I worry about continuing in this environment is Connauton and Lack. I think the big three (T, K, S) will be fine, however.

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12-07-2012, 10:35 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
As much as I criticize Vigneault, at least he has never been as clearly out of his depth (not even close) as Arniel is right now. Just brutal — players have either tuned him out completely or this is actually how he wants them to play, either way it's a total disaster.

I miss MacT and Claude Noel...
I think of Hodgson's relative success in the NHL last year compared to his time in the Moose and I think Av had a lot to do with that. Killing rookies is a false narrative.

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12-07-2012, 10:37 PM
  #162
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Game had lots of warts on it. A good team against a poor one. Outplayed in every facet. Can't blame any individual but very apparent that some so-called prospects looked bad

Schroeder was very ineffective and showed nothing like the speed to generate anything. Indeed looked slow in comparison to many of the Griffins. Not in the same ball park of some of the Detroit prospects.

Sauve is horrible. Really a case study in bad drafting. Player that came out of minor hockey as big time prospect because he was bigger and faster than other kids. But as decent scouts know that means little since as you move up to the pros you will be among many big, strong players. You need to look instead at the skill and thinking. Size helps but in the end you must have skill and you have to think the game at a high level. And it was already apparent by his draft year that Sauve had neither of these qualities. That's why he dropped as most realized he had little pro potential. I bet lots of scouts have a good chuckle when they watch Sauve try to play at the minor pro level. Trouble is with the Canucks is that they seemingly would rather make sure that the favored alumni have their turn at being scouts rather than drafting well. How else do you explain Delorme, Snepsts and the rest of the boys.

Tiranis said about a month ago that Polsek needs to up. At least has the gonads to stand up for himself and his teammates.

Kassian had his moments and he and Archibald created some good chances. Big problem is that Wolves are very weak now the middle with maybe Longpre being their best center. Hard to assess some of the wingers in light of the ineffective play of centers.

Friesen clearly cannot compete at this level of competition. One of those character guys that endear themselves to our organization so I suppose he will get numerous looks. However, he just cannot skate well enough to be considered any kind of prospect.

Agree with those that say Connauton must keeping pushing for offense and not be totally concerned with developing the defensive aspects of his play. He is only going to make it as offensive defenseman. You have to hope that he will create enough offense to make up for defensive problems. As it is his offense seems to have totally dried up.

Depressing effort but one that is illuminating in pointing out the weaknesses in our prospect pool. Also indicative of the sad comparison b/w our scouting and that of a team like Detroit.

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12-07-2012, 10:45 PM
  #163
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Let me fix that post. Tirianis I said about a month ago that they should move Sauve down and Polosek should be ahead of him. Agree with you that there is little point in ragging on Sauve b/c it so obvious that he's brutal and no kind of prospect.

Not sure about Arneil - don't think he has lot to work with. However, would say that almost anyone could get better work out of the special teams. No way it has to be this bad.

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12-07-2012, 11:42 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Let me fix that post. Tirianis I said about a month ago that they should move Sauve down and Polosek should be ahead of him. Agree with you that there is little point in ragging on Sauve b/c it so obvious that he's brutal and no kind of prospect.

Not sure about Arneil - don't think he has lot to work with. However, would say that almost anyone could get better work out of the special teams. No way it has to be this bad.
I wonder if any of the special teams problems have to do with Baumgartner as an assistant coach. For some reason they brought him in as an assistant even though he's got no experience at this or any level, in terms of coaching.

Just thinking about the Canucks drafting...I've had no problems with what Gillis has done in the 1st round during his tenure. He's taken the no brainer BPA without getting cute or going off the board.

I do think there is a problem with the 2nd round however, which is unfortunate because this is obviously a pretty important round in terms of finding quality players outside of the 1st. Gillis et al seem to be getting too cute in the 2nd round. Overthinking it. Just play the 2nd round similar to the 1st and take the consensus BPA. Sauve was a bad pick in the 2nd round considering what was still available. If my memory serves, Sauve was a surprise being picked that soon. Gillis himself gets a bit of a pass here, as he only just took the reigns.

2009 -I remember Rodin being somewhat off the board as well. A bit shocking that Gillis mentioned that they had him pegged as a 1st rounder.

2010 had no 2nd rounder to speak of.

2011 - disturbing that they would pick an unproven goalie that went on a late hot streak early in the 3rd with what amounted to their 2nd round pick. Too cute again, and overthinking it.

2012 - Remains to be seen, but Mallet was again off the board. Early returns aren't exceptional given that he was just sent down to the ECHL, but it's much too early to denounce him as a bust.


The problem, at least in my opinion, seems to consist of getting too cute in the 2nd round, combined with a lack of picks forcing the Canucks to make picks they otherwise may not have made due to the fact that a player wouldn't be available by their next pick. (4th, 5th round)

I don't have a problem with what they've done with their later round picks as this seems to be the area where they make the most hay surprisingly. They've repeatedly shown they can dig up some gems but it appears they're throwing away an important commodity in the 2nd by overthinking things.

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Old
12-08-2012, 03:21 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by B-rock View Post
The problem, at least in my opinion, seems to consist of getting too cute in the 2nd round, combined with a lack of picks forcing the Canucks to make picks they otherwise may not have made due to the fact that a player wouldn't be available by their next pick. (4th, 5th round)

I don't have a problem with what they've done with their later round picks as this seems to be the area where they make the most hay surprisingly. They've repeatedly shown they can dig up some gems but it appears they're throwing away an important commodity in the 2nd by overthinking things.



Bang on. They are overthinking things in the 2nd round and are going too quickly off the board. Their "list" diverges wildly beyond the 1st round and it's hurting them. It has to stop. To compound matters, Gillis is moving too many picks IMO.


Go off the board when you have enough picks to hedge your bets. Then you can take chances, even in the first 2 rounds. But with a dearth of picks, and an already suspect scouting staff, going off the board that early is a sure way to continue the cycle of poor drafting/development.


It's time. It's past time that Gillis look at this make some hard decisions here. He cannot afford to have this continue.

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12-08-2012, 05:25 AM
  #166
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Ebbet looks like he pplaying like crap.

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Old
12-08-2012, 07:34 AM
  #167
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I'm also wondering now, is a track record of production important to the Canucks drafting process? For instance, Mallet was drafted with the knowledge that he had only 1 season at 81 points. But is that anything you can put faith in?


Contrast this with DET, who clearly drafts with production in mind. Production over multiple years that is. So it does highlight the difference in philosophy:


Is it more important to place more weight on production (like DET), or more on the player attributes themselves (like VAN)? The former has their young players producing at higher levels, while the latter cannot point to multiple cases of the same (Jensen is doing well though).


Tough to say.

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12-08-2012, 09:24 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about the system - lot of value found in the last few years during a period of success. I fear the Wolves aren't the greatest environment for them, but they'll have to bear it until the NHL re-opens its doors for business. Hopefully Aquilini can arrange a better farm team following this season.

I don't know which prospects make the Canucks, but I think whoever does will make you guys appreciate Vigneault in comparison.
Why wouldn't it be a good environment? The Wolves are ran like an NHL team. I would be ecstatic to play for the team if I was a player coming up.

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12-08-2012, 09:25 AM
  #169
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I posted this on another board. Thought I would share.

Don Granato 2008-2009
Don Lever 2009-2011
Craig Mac Tavish 2011-2012
Scott Arniel 2012-

What does this say about the General Manager and his review of coaches? I think it's a two way street with Vancouver putting in their sense. In my opinion I think this choice was strictly a Vancouver one for Arniel to become the head coach.

It's been a coaching carousel since Anderson left. No I'm not calling for Anderson to return because I think it would taint his legacy.

Of all the years since Anderson's "retirement" honestly what team had Championship caliber?

I just shake my head. This team isn't fun to watch this year and it's getting worse and worse.

I feel bad for Climie as it could have been 6-0 last night.

I don't see any answers for this anytime soon. Obviously benching people worked for one game but then we are back to square one. I don't think we can bench the entire team.

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #170
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They wanted Rodin?
If they would have drafted Rodin I'm sure he would have been in the nhl by now

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:59 AM
  #171
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MacT did a much better job with what a was worse team on paper. You can either blame all the players for underperforming, all in the same year or you can assume that maybe the coaching is to blame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
I wouldn't worry too much about the system - lot of value found in the last few years during a period of success. I fear the Wolves aren't the greatest environment for them, but they'll have to bear it until the NHL re-opens its doors for business. Hopefully Aquilini can arrange a better farm team following this season.

I don't know which prospects make the Canucks, but I think whoever does will make you guys appreciate Vigneault in comparison.
Nothing wrong with the team, IMO. Last year every single prospect developed well under MacT, even guys like Sauve and Sweatt made positive steps. This year everyone has either regressed or stayed the same.

---

Not ready to give up on Rodin. I would like to see all of these guys playing in a better system with a better coach. The lack of chemistry between players is apparent as the most a line has stayed together is 2 games.

A very skilled team yet they basically have to grind it out to get any goals, there's no sense of where their teammates are and there appear to be no set plays off the face-off. Special teams are the worst in the league. What's sad is that even personnel decisions on special teams are pathetic.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-08-2012 at 11:08 AM.
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Old
12-08-2012, 11:49 AM
  #172
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MacT's team was easily a worse team on paper, especially as the season wore on when injuries hit and callups were made.

Longpre/Doell was the 1C until Reinprecht got here, then Longpre was gone either with injury or the trade and our 3C was rotating between players who have not played C for several years (Oreskovich, Bitz, Mancari, Miller for a game or two). We had Schneider as the 4C for the majority of the season and a large part of the PK. We had an underperforming Mancari for most of the season as well. For the beginning of the season, we had a very green defense, playing two 2nd years in Connauton+Sauve and rookies in Erixon and Polasek. Yet we were in the top 5 all year for the PK, ending at the top of our div.

That is not a group that looks good on paper, ugly even, but for the most part, the players bought into the system, even more importantly, players were learning under MacT and each of them made strides from the beginning to the end of the season. Connauton had a good year improving his defense at least, Sauve looked at least like a workable specimen rather than the junk he is now, Rodin had a good second half and looked to be improving, Polasek was looking like he could have a big impact on the team by playing some of his best games at the end of the season.

The excuse that this is a weak roster is simply not going to fly. Every prospect is back with experience, additions of Ebbett+Gordon+Sterling+Pinizzotto+Joslin+Mullen who have a plethora of AHL experience and success, should be an easier group to win with. There is simply no excuse and Arniel should look at the fingers pointing back at him and his coaching staff when he singles out Kassian and Schroeder (whom i believe has been one of the most consistent forwards, offensively and defensively for them). His personnel choices are more than a bit questionable. Take a look at last night, we hear Connauton has been deathly ill with the flu, lost 10 lbs. Sure why don't we throw him back in when we have a healthy Andersson and Miskovic? Why not rest him until he regains back some strength? Also, he must be a blind man using Sauve consistently again. Personally, i think Andersson has significantly outplayed Sauve this season, especially defensively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by orcatown View Post
Trouble is with the Canucks is that they seemingly would rather make sure that the favored alumni have their turn at being scouts rather than drafting well. How else do you explain Delorme, Snepsts and the rest of the boys
What's even more alarming is that i read the Canucks have slashed the scouting budget a lot because of the lockout, which is really weird since they have a lot of money. So that tells me we are depending more on the old boys club for this season and the draft. Which is an absolutely scary thought.


Last edited by thefeebster: 12-08-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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Old
12-08-2012, 12:29 PM
  #173
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What's even more alarming is that i read the Canucks have slashed the scouting budget a lot because of the lockout, which is really weird since they have a lot of money. So that tells me we are depending more on the old boys club for this season and the draft. Which is an absolutely scary thought.

scary indeed, might as well fire all the scouts and draft using a draft magazine/report.

We might even be better off.

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12-08-2012, 12:33 PM
  #174
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I'm also wondering now, is a track record of production important to the Canucks drafting process? For instance, Mallet was drafted with the knowledge that he had only 1 season at 81 points. But is that anything you can put faith in?


Contrast this with DET, who clearly drafts with production in mind. Production over multiple years that is. So it does highlight the difference in philosophy:


Is it more important to place more weight on production (like DET), or more on the player attributes themselves (like VAN)? The former has their young players producing at higher levels, while the latter cannot point to multiple cases of the same (Jensen is doing well though).


Tough to say.
I've heard Gillis talk about "trending" being important to them. Improvement isn't linear, they're going after players that are improving the most and trying to avoid players that have peaked.

I think you guys are reading way too much into what our prospects aren't doing right now. Hockey is a team game, the Wolves are sucking ass, it shouldn't be surprising at all that our prospects aren't lighting it up. Schroeder, Kassian and Tanev are the important pieces down there right now and all of them are having good seasons and rounding out their game, that's all we need out of the farm for now.

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What's even more alarming is that i read the Canucks have slashed the scouting budget a lot because of the lockout, which is really weird since they have a lot of money. So that tells me we are depending more on the old boys club for this season and the draft. Which is an absolutely scary thought.
I assume that they cut some scouting because they have to give their NHL coaches and junior management something to do, they have to pay them after all.

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Old
12-08-2012, 12:41 PM
  #175
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scary indeed, might as well fire all the scouts and draft using a draft magazine/report.

We might even be better off.
The Buffalo Sabres have a pathetic scouting budget, rely heavily on video and they still work circles around us.

I would welcome a drafting philosophy that relies on actual on ice results and production over whatever philosophy Gillis has this organization trying to implement.

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