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Chicago Wolves Discussion - Part VI

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Old
12-08-2012, 01:44 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I've heard Gillis talk about "trending" being important to them. Improvement isn't linear, they're going after players that are improving the most and trying to avoid players that have peaked.

I think you guys are reading way too much into what our prospects aren't doing right now. Hockey is a team game, the Wolves are sucking ass, it shouldn't be surprising at all that our prospects aren't lighting it up. Schroeder, Kassian and Tanev are the important pieces down there right now and all of them are having good seasons and rounding out their game, that's all we need out of the farm for now.
Is it called the Sauve effect? Hated that pick from the 1st time I saw him in a Canuck jersey. Just another case of drafting for physical attributes while completely overlooking skill and smarts.

You nailed the problem by listing our top 3 prospects. Only 1 of them have been drafted by this organization. It's concerning when all your top prospects (Lack, Tanev, Kassian) haven't been drafted...

Beyond the 1st rd, what's the best forward pick Gillis has made in his tenure here?

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12-08-2012, 01:45 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
The Buffalo Sabres have a pathetic scouting budget, rely heavily on video and they still work circles around us.

I would welcome a drafting philosophy that relies on actual on ice results and production over whatever philosophy Gillis has this organization trying to implement.
I agree. Mallet over Severson was imo a big mistake. I don't see the point in drafting players whose max upside seems to be a third line grinder. We can acquire those players far more easily via trade/UFA than guys that actually have the potential to be top-6/4 players.

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12-08-2012, 01:51 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Beyond the 1st rd, what's the best forward pick Gillis has made in his tenure here?
LaBate and I'm personally pretty high on Blomstrand from what I've seen in highlights this season. I still think people are judging Rodin too soon. He was getting better last season but has regressed under Arniel and I'm not convinced it's all on Rodin's shoulders.

Defense looks good though: Connauton, Price, McNally, Corrado, Hutton are all outperforming their draft position.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-08-2012 at 02:00 PM.
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12-08-2012, 02:00 PM
  #179
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You nailed the problem by listing our top 3 prospects. Only 1 of them have been drafted by this organization.
We traded someone we drafted to get Kassian, so this is a little misleading. You're also leaving out Jensen... the drafting has been fine. Minor league development has been a problem this season, 25 games in. You're all overreacting.

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12-08-2012, 02:09 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I think you guys are reading way too much into what our prospects aren't doing right now. Hockey is a team game, the Wolves are sucking ass, it shouldn't be surprising at all that our prospects aren't lighting it up. Schroeder, Kassian and Tanev are the important pieces down there right now and all of them are having good seasons and rounding out their game, that's all we need out of the farm for now.
I don't think we are reading too much into things. This is after all the Chicago Wolves thread where we give opinions on game to game play and progression throughout the season, right?

Bolded: Simply a poor philosophy to have. Just to be content with what's going on down there right now? What about Lack? Is he not important too? Is the play in front of him inspiring much confidence in himself and in his own play? Confidence is a big part in his game, any goaltender's game. What about our other prospects developing their game? Is there no value in their success, even minimal trade value?

Success breeds success is the quote. I don't think being a team losing and failing to meet most of their expectations fits in there.

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I assume that they cut some scouting because they have to give their NHL coaches and junior management something to do, they have to pay them after all.
Junior management scouting at games... that's a scary thought. I am hoping you do not mean the Media and Accounting department.

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12-08-2012, 02:09 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
We traded someone we drafted to get Kassian, so this is a little misleading. You're also leaving out Jensen... the drafting has been fine. Minor league development has been a problem this season, 25 games in. You're all overreacting.
For all the crying about Rodin (vs Tatar), he has 6 points in 17 games at ES (no EN goal points). The thing is, Tatar has 8 of his points on PP so only 11 ES points in 21 games and 2 off those came on an EN goal. Also, 4th AHL season vs 2nd.

The margin would be a lot smaller if the Wolves had decent special teams coaching.

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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
I don't think we are reading too much into things. This is after all the Chicago Wolves thread where we give opinions on game to game play and progression throughout the season, right?

Bolded: Simply a poor philosophy to have. Just to be content with what's going on down there right now? What about Lack? Is the play in front of him inspiring much confidence in himself and in his own play? Confidence is a big part in his game, any goaltender's game. What about our other prospects developing their game? Is there no value in their success, even minimal trade value?

Success breeds success is the quote. I don't think being a team losing and failing to meet most of their expectations fits in there.
Pretty sure he was talking about people judging our prospects by their stats with the Wolves and I would tend to agree that it's not very worthwhile given the situation down there.

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12-08-2012, 02:13 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
LaBate and I'm personally pretty high on Blomstrand from what I've seen in highlights this season. I still think people are judging Rodin too soon. He was getting better last season but has regressed under Arniel and I'm not convinced it's all on Rodin's shoulders.

Defense looks good though: Connauton, Price, McNally, Corrado, Hutton are all outperforming their draft position.
Realistically though it'd be a stretch if either of these guys ever become impact players in the NHL. LaBate has 2 assists in 12 college games so far this season, and while Blomstrand appears to be doing well its in a lesser Swedish league.

I'm not saying these were bad picks given where they were taken, but so far none of Gillis' forward picks beyond the 1st round are showing any promise of becoming anything at the NHL level. I'll be patient as it takes time for players to develop, but it isn't looking promising as we freeze frame in the present.

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Old
12-08-2012, 02:14 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Luck 6 View Post
LaBate has 2 assists in 12 college games so far this season, and while Blomstrand appears to be doing well its in a lesser Swedish league.
Same Swedish lower league where Kopitar is barely above PPG. The difference between SEL and Allsvenskan is not that big. Pontus Aberg, drafted in the early 2nd round, has 12 points in 28 games in that league. Filip Forsberg is below PPG. Landeskog has 14 points in 17 games.

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12-08-2012, 02:22 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Pretty sure he was talking about people judging our prospects by their stats with the Wolves and I would tend to agree that it's not very worthwhile given the situation down there.
Fair enough about the stats, just didn't like that last sentence. Don't think we should take on the thought of "Well shucks, Tanev, Schroeder and Kassian are doing respectable, everything is hunky dory".

There needs to be a change. We are 1/3rd of the way into the season and its a good evaluation point. Things are not good right now and has not looked good/cohesive at any point really. The coaching staff and the players need to right the ship before the season is lost.

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12-08-2012, 02:27 PM
  #185
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Fair enough about the stats, just didn't like that last sentence. Don't think we should take on the thought of "Well shucks, Tanev, Schroeder and Kassian are doing respectable, everything is hunky dory".

There needs to be a change. We are 1/3rd of the way into the season and its a good evaluation point. Things are not good right now and has not looked good/cohesive at any point really. The coaching staff and the players need to right the ship before the season is lost.
Yeah, I agree with that. The fact that Arniel is still juggling lines this late in the season shocks me.

Also, he has yet to put Schroeder on the PK even though he spent pretty much all season there under MacT, on what was actually a Top 5 PK rather than the worst in the league. I don't get how you don't try that. Also, why can't Rodin get some PK time — he has speed and work ethic to handle it, even if his defensive reads are not quite the best yet. Ebbett meanwhile should be off the PK as soon as possible yet continues to be there game after game.

But whatever, this goes way deeper than switching out the personnel on special teams. The whole game plan is broken and the players appear to have tuned him out.


Last edited by Tiranis: 12-08-2012 at 02:34 PM.
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12-08-2012, 02:56 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
What's even more alarming is that i read the Canucks have slashed the scouting budget a lot because of the lockout, which is really weird since they have a lot of money. So that tells me we are depending more on the old boys club for this season and the draft. Which is an absolutely scary thought.
We won't know until we see the fallout, but this could be a good excuse to cut dead weight and rebuild it once the lockout ends. If other, less wealthy teams are also cutting scouting budgets, their are opportunities to capitalize.

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12-08-2012, 02:58 PM
  #187
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I watched the game last night.
And as sad as it is to say... while we rank our prospects on a scale from A-F, out prospects are in an entirely different echelon than a lot of other teams pools, in the sense that they are not very good, at all.

Kassian continues to plug away, looking good for 30 seconds at a time. He asserts himself occasionally, typically after he has scored a goal in a game, he decides to show up physically.

Schroeder is in every single facet of the word, unspectacular. He has hands, and he has legs, but at the AHL level they are simply above-average. He also has very decent vision.

Tanev. All of you chalking him up as some top-4 d-man... you're probably right. But Tanev is about as boring a defenceman you can find. He has NO tools, but this works to his advantage because he gets the puck off his stick fast. He doesn't have the ability to do much, so he plays a very simple game. His defensive awareness is great in the AHL.

Rodin? This guy will never play in the NHL. Don't kid yourselves folks.

Sauve? Next stop for this guy is the ECHL.



And seriously... where the hell do you go from here?
We have Jensen, who is looking pretty great for a 19 year old.

Gaunce... meh. Maybe a 3C one day?

To me, Corrado is the best prospect in our system (notwithstanding goalies).

But wow. If Grand Rapids did one thing for me, it absolutely highlighted the fact that we don't just need to add to our prospect pool, we need to completely redress it.

Pretty sad, because I think I felt this way 4 years ago too.

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12-08-2012, 03:01 PM
  #188
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right, the sky is always falling after a loss.

also, skating, hockey sense, and hockey IQ aren't tools?

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12-08-2012, 03:09 PM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roach9 View Post
I watched the game last night.
And as sad as it is to say... while we rank our prospects on a scale from A-F, out prospects are in an entirely different echelon than a lot of other teams pools, in the sense that they are not very good, at all.

Kassian continues to plug away, looking good for 30 seconds at a time. He asserts himself occasionally, typically after he has scored a goal in a game, he decides to show up physically.

Schroeder is in every single facet of the word, unspectacular. He has hands, and he has legs, but at the AHL level they are simply above-average. He also has very decent vision.

Tanev. All of you chalking him up as some top-4 d-man... you're probably right. But Tanev is about as boring a defenceman you can find. He has NO tools, but this works to his advantage because he gets the puck off his stick fast. He doesn't have the ability to do much, so he plays a very simple game. His defensive awareness is great in the AHL.

Rodin? This guy will never play in the NHL. Don't kid yourselves folks.

Sauve? Next stop for this guy is the ECHL.



And seriously... where the hell do you go from here?
We have Jensen, who is looking pretty great for a 19 year old.

Gaunce... meh. Maybe a 3C one day?

To me, Corrado is the best prospect in our system (notwithstanding goalies).

But wow. If Grand Rapids did one thing for me, it absolutely highlighted the fact that we don't just need to add to our prospect pool, we need to completely redress it.

Pretty sad, because I think I felt this way 4 years ago too.
I think you are underrating Schroeder here, he has the speed and vision to make the NHL. I think what you are seeing is a product of Arniel's ineptitude. Schroeder was pretty good under MacT.

I am not sure I agree with you about our pool needing to be completely redressed. McNally, Price, Tommernes, and McEneny are decent prospects that were omitted, dark horse prospects like Mallet and Blomstrand could also surprise us. What we need are a couple of banner blue chippers to legitimize the pool. I'm hoping we pick one up in the Luongo trade.

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12-08-2012, 03:59 PM
  #190
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Regarding Arniel, this clip from his time with the Jackets has always stuck with me:



Quote:
"You've got skilled players, but on 4 on 4 where you think that skill would show up, It hasn't necessarily treated you kindly.."

"They have skill too. If you didn't notice. They had all their skill out too. They made a skill play and I don't think Mase saw that one where they had traffic in front, they threw a wrister up top that found its way into the net."

"But throughout the season, have you noticed something on 4 on 4..."

"Have you noticed that on 4 on 4? We've been beaten up on 4 on 4? Goals Against? I don't think so, I'll go and show you the stats on that if you want. That hasn't been a problem for us, but it was tonight."

"You've been outscored 8 to 1."

"Is that what it is? Okay, well I guess you guys have all the answers and are just waiting to jump so, I guess we'll have to work on that too. So just keep piling it on, whatever you want just keep piling it on."
Bolded is Arniel.

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12-08-2012, 04:15 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
Regarding Arniel, this clip from his time with the Jackets has always stuck with me:




Bolded is Arniel.
That's hilarious

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12-08-2012, 04:16 PM
  #192
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I don't think we are reading too much into things. This is after all the Chicago Wolves thread where we give opinions on game to game play and progression throughout the season, right?

Bolded: Simply a poor philosophy to have. Just to be content with what's going on down there right now? What about Lack? Is he not important too? Is the play in front of him inspiring much confidence in himself and in his own play? Confidence is a big part in his game, any goaltender's game. What about our other prospects developing their game? Is there no value in their success, even minimal trade value?

Success breeds success is the quote. I don't think being a team losing and failing to meet most of their expectations fits in there.
I'm not saying it isn't a problem or something that we shouldn't be concerned, I just don't think it means management is way out to lunch on picks or we need to otherwise overreact. Minor league development is important and as I said, it has been lacking this season. Still time to turn it around and like I also said, the guys we need right now aren't the ones struggling the most, which is a good thing. It's also short sighted to assume that because guys aren't producing they aren't developing. This team will not put players that can't play the whole ice in their lineup, our prospects need that to be their focus.

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Junior management scouting at games... that's a scary thought. I am hoping you do not mean the Media and Accounting department.
I'm not well versed on our management structure but I assume they have assistant GM's, video guys and assistant coaches that are doing scouting. Maybe junior management was a poor choice of words but I have a feeling you know I didn't mean a guy in accounting.


Last edited by Scurr: 12-08-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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12-08-2012, 04:27 PM
  #193
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Coaching issues, and overall prospect quality aside - I think we're also seeing the problem with many peoples' reasoning that the farm team should just be prospects, and that AHL teams bringing in vets is somehow detrimental to prospect development.

The Wolves' vets are generally ******** the bed, and it's harming the team overall in a big way. If Haydar, Ebbett, Gordon, were playing up to what should be their levels, the Canucks' prospects likely look a lot better right now, as does Arniel. Obviously this is a chicken/egg thing, but it can't all be one-sided.

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12-08-2012, 05:16 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Wisp View Post
We won't know until we see the fallout, but this could be a good excuse to cut dead weight and rebuild it once the lockout ends. If other, less wealthy teams are also cutting scouting budgets, their are opportunities to capitalize.
I also imagine that if the Canucks have cut their scouting budget for this year, it is pro-scouting that is cut. Scouts are sent to games to keep tabs on opposing team players/systems. While I have no proof of this, it makes sense that the pro-scouting budget was cut, whereas the amateur scouting (for the draft) would stay the same, in a year like this.

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12-08-2012, 05:38 PM
  #195
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That's hilarious
I think "pathetic" is the word you're looking for.

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12-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I'm not saying it isn't a problem or something that we shouldn't be concerned, I just don't think it means management is way out to lunch on picks or we need to otherwise overreact. Minor league development is important and as I said, it has been lacking this season. Still time to turn it around and like I also said, the guys we need right now aren't the ones struggling the most, which is a good thing. It's also short sighted to assume that because guys aren't producing they aren't developing. This team will not put players that can't play the whole ice in their lineup, our prospects need that to be their focus.
Just because our big guns (TSK) aren't struggling the most is not a good thing, i cannot agree with this. Agree to disagree.

For those who didn't watch last year, it would have been short sighted last season to assume that because guys aren't producing they aren't developing. However, this year, that is not the case. Rodin is playing his way back to Sweden with his inconsistency, Sauve is regressing beyond belief in his defensive play, Connauton is looking less and less like an offensive dman, which is his calling card, Sweatt is not adding any aspect to his game that he didn't have last season. These players are regressing or stagnating, they are not developing, and its plain to see when you watch.

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I'm not well versed on our management structure but I assume they have assistant GM's, video guys and assistant coaches that are doing scouting. Maybe junior management was a poor choice of words but I have a feeling you know I didn't mean a guy in accounting.
Here is management Not many people there i'd want scouting heavily. But if you are talking about Smyl and Gagner scouting a bit, yes, they've been known for showing up at games before.

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12-08-2012, 06:52 PM
  #197
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he's very professional. should run for president.

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12-08-2012, 06:57 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
We traded someone we drafted to get Kassian, so this is a little misleading. You're also leaving out Jensen... the drafting has been fine. Minor league development has been a problem this season, 25 games in. You're all overreacting.
Has it? If it continues along how it is now are we a top 10 team in the NHL in 5 years?

I have always liked high risk, high reward picks and it seems we're moving away from those type of talents. Time will tell if it's the right way to go. As of today, I'm not sold.

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12-08-2012, 07:01 PM
  #199
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Here is management Not many people there i'd want scouting heavily. But if you are talking about Smyl and Gagner scouting a bit, yes, they've been known for showing up at games before.
Aside from the bad wording, it is likely that some guys that are normally not scouts might be doing a bit of junior scouting. I'm sure AV has gone to a game or two (or more like twenty) to see the prospects for himself, same for MG (more than he would otherwise).

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Originally Posted by thefeebster View Post
Just because our big guns (TSK) aren't struggling the most is not a good thing, i cannot agree with this. Agree to disagree.

For those who didn't watch last year, it would have been short sighted last season to assume that because guys aren't producing they aren't developing. However, this year, that is not the case. Rodin is playing his way back to Sweden with his inconsistency, Sauve is regressing beyond belief in his defensive play, Connauton is looking less and less like an offensive dman, which is his calling card, Sweatt is not adding any aspect to his game that he didn't have last season. These players are regressing or stagnating, they are not developing, and its plain to see when you watch.
100% behind this. Yes, Schroeder, Kassian, Tanev, etc. are not regressing and maybe even developing a bit, but the rest are having huge issues. It's especially concerning with guys like Rodin and Connauton. But even the fact that Sauve has regressed and Polasek is for some strange reason stuck in the ECHL is concerning.

I think after last year we both thought that Polasek would have some NHL potential as a #6/#7 guy but now he's being slowly ruined by leaving him in the ECHL. It makes no sense.

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12-08-2012, 07:58 PM
  #200
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Might as well cheer for the IceHogs tonight. The longer the Wolves lose, the more likely Arniel is to get fired. Don't think he can turn this around and I don't want to go through a year of mediocre play where he destroys our prospects.

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