HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Other Sports > Football
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Football NFL, NCAA, CFL

Chiefs' Jovan Belcher shoots girlfriend, commits suicide in front of Crennel/Pioli

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-01-2012, 02:47 PM
  #126
Live in the Now
Global Moderator
YNWA
 
Live in the Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LA
Country: United States
Posts: 35,146
vCash: 500
Awards:
The Chris Benoit case does not mean concussions are linked to murder. Concussions can be linked to depression, but all mental health patients do not commit murder. Suicide and murder are two entirely different things. If he was depressed and decided to take another person down with him, it's cowardly.

Live in the Now is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:48 PM
  #127
MM425
Registered User
 
MM425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
And this guy murdered someone

And there is no evidance of depression or any concusion related issues

In Chicago we just had a guy kill his cousin with scissors for breaking his Marvel Comic drinking glass...... Murder doesn't require mental illness

The conclusion of media to jump to concussions as reason for this crime is the issue that is bothersome to me and I imagine others...
I agree we shouldn't be quick to jump to conclusions... like I said I'm just purely speculating here.

However given the apparent bizarre circumstances of his suicide it's not a stretch to speculate mental illness.

And given the recent run of suicides in the NFL and the fact they've linked many of these suicides with CTE, in my mind at least, makes it reasonable to speculate if it could be at play again.

Remember the Chris Benoit murder/suicides? Once the autopsy was completed, it was revealed Benoit had a case of CTE so severe, doctors described his brain as the equivalent of an 80 year old Alzheimer's patient.

MM425 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:49 PM
  #128
CanadianHockey
Smith - Alfie
 
CanadianHockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Petawawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 29,769
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
There has been no evidence of concussions leading to murder ,, So again I fail to see how it comes into play here
Concussions -> deterioration of the brain -> mental illness -> decreased self control -> increased possibility of violence.

Seems like a logical causal mechanism to me.

Concussions certainly aren't the only reason this happened. Hell, if he was concussion free, they may have had no impact. But discounting it completely is just as ridiculous as claiming it was definitely the primary contributor to this tragedy. I'd argue lack of evidence supporting concussions and murder is probably because concussions and brain damage is still relatively poorly understood.

__________________
CanadianHockey_________ _ _ _ _ _______Sens, Oilers, and Team Canada
CanadianHockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:50 PM
  #129
Alicat
City of Champions!
 
Alicat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Titletown
Country: United States
Posts: 27,497
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by guinness View Post
I wonder if he had a history of concussions, or other significant injuries, that required the use of painkillers, that may have contributed to an altered mental state.

Messed situation otherwise.
Not the time to speculate why it happened but don't be so quick to assume it was because of concussions.

Blaming tragic incidents involving NFL players on concussions is a clever way to avoid any discussion about mental health issues. Time to start talking about them.

__________________
The Butler did it. In the end zone. With a pick!

I am Boston Strong
6.15.11
4.15.13

Alicat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:52 PM
  #130
Live in the Now
Global Moderator
YNWA
 
Live in the Now's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: LA
Country: United States
Posts: 35,146
vCash: 500
Awards:
To answer an earlier question, Belcher has never appeared on the injury report for a concussion. Just one groin injury.

Live in the Now is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:54 PM
  #131
NYRFAN218
Mac Truck
 
NYRFAN218's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Brooklyn, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 14,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
December 1, 2012Chiefs: After discussions between the league office, Head Coach Romeo Crennel and Chiefs team captains, the Chiefs advised the NFL that it will play tomorrow’s game vs. the Carolina Panthers at its originally scheduled time.
https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/sta...79572196446208

__________________
http://hfboards.com/image.php?u=53946&type=sigpic&dateline=1320361610
NYRFAN218 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:55 PM
  #132
Brodie
voted best
 
Brodie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Michigan
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 14,520
vCash: 500
you can suffer from mental issues like depression or bipolar disorder without concussions you know

just totally tragic and upsetting. i sincerely hope they cancel the game tomorrow

Brodie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:57 PM
  #133
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
 
Blades of Glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 18,401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Express View Post
LOL at people blaming this on concussions.

RIP to the girlfriend and prayers to her friends/family/their child.
Really? You haven't heard of brain damage causing suicides?

Quote:
The suicide of the former Chicago Bears star Dave Duerson became more alarming Monday, when Boston University researchers announced that his brain had developed the same trauma-induced disease recently found in more than 20 deceased players.
Quote:
Staging is determined by the amount and distribution of tau. In Grade 1, a few hot spots appear on the surface, clustered around small blood vessels. "You see those holes on the side walls, the holes and tangles in a circle around the hole?" she says, pointing to Owen Thomas's damaged brain tissue. "That's a 21-year-old brain!"

The blood vessels vex her and perplex her. "Why the blood vessels?" she says, tracing a painterly splatter on his brain with her forefinger. "What am I missing?"

She was talking to the disease, not to me.

In Grade 2, the spots multiply but most brain tissue is undisturbed. Thomas had Grade 2 of the disease when he committed suicide; the 18-year-old had Grade 1.

In Grade 3, the neurofibulary tangles she likens to skeins of unraveling yarn invade multiple lobes of the brain. Besieged, the medial temporal lobe atrophies. The hippocampus, essential for learning and memory, is attacked. The amygdala, which governs aggressiveness and rage, is assaulted. Symptoms multiply and intensify: headaches, depression, insomnia, anxiety; loss of impulse control, executive function, and emotional regulation; tremors, vertigo, slurred speech and a staggered gait; and finally dementia.
http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...port-only-hope

I really suggest you read this story before coming up with an opinion as asinine as it is incorrect. No one is saying Belcher's issues are because of concussions, but there is a fairly established link between head trauma, brain disease, and increasingly volatile emotional functionality.


Last edited by Modo: 12-01-2012 at 04:24 PM.
Blades of Glory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:57 PM
  #134
MM425
Registered User
 
MM425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
To answer an earlier question, Belcher has never appeared on the injury report for a concussion. Just one groin injury.
What research is starting to indicate is that repeated smaller "sub-concussive" blows over the span of years might in fact be worse than actual concussions.

MM425 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:57 PM
  #135
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 123,995
vCash: 756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasbro View Post
At least direct the moment of silence to his girlfriend.

I think Sean Taylor's murder was during a BYE week.

I don't have time to check on when Kenny McKinley;s suicide and the Bengals player who was killed by his girlfriend were on the schedule, but they didn't alter the schedule as far as I know.
Yeah, but none of them died (much less killed themselves) at the stadium.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2015

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17
GKJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:57 PM
  #136
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
you can suffer from mental issues like depression or bipolar disorder without concussions you know

just totally tragic and upsetting. i sincerely hope they cancel the game tomorrow
Look no further then Alonso Spellman and his issues with bi-polar (Including the hostage situation)

One minor bit of info that is interesting is Belcher just lost his starting job last week it appears

As we have seen players can become emotional at that aspect (Look no further then Chilo Rachal emotional breakdown here in Chicago)

Who knows how Belcher reacted to benching

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 02:59 PM
  #137
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
Really? You haven't heard of brain damage causing suicides? How ****ing naive are you?





http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/...port-only-hope

I really suggest you read this story before coming up with an opinion as asinine as it is incorrect.
How about Duerson's failed business , Economic state and failed marriage. Its easy to say that concussions/CTE played role but there were other factors that made his situation more then a brain issue

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:05 PM
  #138
New Sabres Captain
ForFriendshipDikembe
 
New Sabres Captain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 42,111
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
you can suffer from mental issues like depression or bipolar disorder without concussions you know

just totally tragic and upsetting. i sincerely hope they cancel the game tomorrow
This.

We may never know if maybe he had an underlying mental health problem that went undiagnosed and therefore untreated. It's too easy to say "he was a bad person"...he did a bad thing, it was tragic, but while nothing will absolve him of guilt, he could still be a victim in his own right, but we will never know. It certainly doesn't appear premeditated.

New Sabres Captain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:11 PM
  #139
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
 
Blades of Glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 18,401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
How about Duerson's failed business , Economic state and failed marriage. Its easy to say that concussions/CTE played role but there were other factors that made his situation more then a brain issue
For such a fanatic Bears fan, I would expect you to know a little more about the very publicized death of a very popular Bear. Duerson's final wish was that his brain be examined by the country's leading researcher on trauma-induced brain disease.

Quote:
That same day, Junior Seau, a future Hall of Famer who did not have a diagnosed history of concussions, was found dead with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest — the same awful methodology Dave Duerson chose when he killed himself, leaving a suicide note asking that his brain be left in care of Ann McKee and her team. The findings of CTE in Duerson's brain were released on May 2, 2011.
Quote:
It’s tragic that Dave Duerson took his own life, but it’s very meaningful that he recognized the symptoms of the disorder — it validates this condition,” said Dr. Ann McKee, the neuropathologist who examined Duerson’s brain. She said she found indisputable evidence of C.T.E. in the tissue samples, with “no evidence of any other disorder.”

Although the precise motivations behind Duerson’s suicide remain unknown, he had complained of headaches, blurred vision and a deteriorating memory in the months before his death. His final note to his family finished with a handwritten request: “Please, see that my brain is given to the N.F.L.’s brain bank.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/sp...rson.html?_r=0

Duerson's life had spiraled out of control during his final months, and he had a very strong idea why. He paid the ultimate sacrifice, and he did not want it to go to waste. You can opine why Belcher pulled what he did, and head trauma may not be an issue, but with Duerson, it is universally accepted that he was a victim of CTE from repeated brain trauma. And he knew it, or at least had an idea, which is even more heartbreaking. No one ever knows the true motivaton behind suicide. But it's not hard to guess that brain damage had something to do with it in Duerson's case.

Blades of Glory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:11 PM
  #140
WeThreeKings
Retired.
 
WeThreeKings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Halifax
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,912
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to WeThreeKings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
This Chief player is not a victim ,, I refuse to accept him as one and the NFL better not hold a moment of silence for him
I refuse to call someone a dirtbag who doesn't deserve a memorial without any additional information.

Whether you want to believe it or not, mental illnesses, concussions, and deep emotional trauma (from childhood, adolescence or adulthood) can cause a lot of disturbing changes in the brain which can alter the thinking and behavioural patterns of the individual.

I also refuse to absolve him from any guilt in the situation. Killing someone and killing yourself in front of other individuals is by no means something to be forgotten. I just believe that something had to be wrong, he was a victim of something at some point of his life that led to this disgusting outcome.

WeThreeKings is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:18 PM
  #141
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades of Glory View Post
For such a fanatic Bears fan, I would expect you to know a little more about the very publicized death of a very popular Bear. Duerson's final wish was that his brain be examined by the country's leading researcher on trauma-induced brain disease.





http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/sp...rson.html?_r=0

Duerson's life had spiraled out of control during his final months, and he had a very strong idea why. He paid the ultimate sacrifice, and he did not want it to go to waste. You can opine why Belcher pulled what he did, and head trauma may not be an issue, but with Duerson, it is universally accepted that he was a victim of CTE from repeated brain trauma. And he knew it, or at least had an idea, which is even more heartbreaking. No one ever knows the true motivaton behind suicide. But it's not hard to guess that brain damage had something to do with it in Duerson's case.
Duerson's life spiraled out of control when he

- Ran his business into ground
- Destroyed his finances
- Ruined his marraige , etc

Oh and lets add the bitter fight with his ex-wife over $$$ right before his suicide on the list of issues

He had health problems but financial problems were more the root of his true downward spiral

His ex-wife who was so supporting of him near end that she was trying to force the sale of his SB rings to pay her

Sorry but saying concussion/brain trauma is reason for his suicide is being naive

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:23 PM
  #142
MM425
Registered User
 
MM425's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 4,697
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Duerson's life spiraled out of control when he

- Ran his business into ground
- Destroyed his finances
- Ruined his marraige , etc

Oh and lets add the bitter fight with his ex-wife over $$$ right before his suicide on the list of issues

He had health problems but financial problems were more the root of his true downward spiral

His ex-wife who was so supporting of him near end that she was trying to force the sale of his SB rings to pay her

Sorry but saying concussion/brain trauma is reason for his suicide is being naive
Did it ever occur to you that his life may have spiralled out of control mainly BECAUSE of his brain condition?

Duerson is one of the more clear cases of CTE because his symptoms were pretty well documented in the years/months leading up to his death and the autopsy verified this.

MM425 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:24 PM
  #143
Blades of Glory
Troll Captain
 
Blades of Glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: California
Country: United States
Posts: 18,401
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Duerson's life spiraled out of control when he

- Ran his business into ground
- Destroyed his finances
- Ruined his marraige , etc

Oh and lets add the bitter fight with his ex-wife over $$$ right before his suicide on the list of issues

He had health problems but financial problems were more the root of his true downward spiral

His ex-wife who was so supporting of him near end that she was trying to force the sale of his SB rings to pay her

Sorry but saying concussion/brain trauma is reason for his suicide is being naive
I'm not going to bother arguing with you. Go read those articles. You don't seem to understand that CTE causes lives to spiral downward in the exact way that Duerson's did. Everything you list off as a reason for Duerson's death can be linked in some way to trauma-induced CTE and the destruction it wreaks on the brain. Look, I can understand why you would be hesitant to say Belcher was a victim of brain damage, but for God's sake, Dave Duerson is the single most documented and researched case of CTE in an NFL player. To say that he isn't would simply be incorrect. There's not even an argument. These are pure facts.

Blades of Glory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:29 PM
  #144
MrAlfie
 
MrAlfie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Rehab
Country: Spain
Posts: 5,249
vCash: 500
Just throwing in a small fact.

It wasn't his girlfriend's mother who witnessed it all, it was Belcher's mother.
When she called the Police she said it was her daughter, which kinda shows that she loved her Grand Child's mother.
very tragic indeed.
Everyone should cut out the speculating and name calling, especially certain people who are here to regulate this kind of behavior.
None of us knows the Family in person.

MrAlfie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:37 PM
  #145
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
Quote:
Originally Posted by MM425 View Post
Did it ever occur to you that his life may have spiralled out of control mainly BECAUSE of his brain condition?

Duerson is one of the more clear cases of CTE because his symptoms were pretty well documented in the years/months leading up to his death.
Brain damage doesn't make someone

- Cheat on wife
- Doesn't make someone expand a business despite being told that financially is is major risk (This was before economy botttomed out)
- Doesn't make them buy homes they dont even live in (The condo he died in went unused for years)
- Doesn't make them live a life financially they cant afford (When they know they are broke)

In the years leading up to his death he brougth most of the failures in his life on himself

I dont dispute he had CTE issues ,, But they weren't only thing that went wrong with him in end that were his mistakes that added to his misery (Not to mention the fact he was turned down when pursuing a position coaches job in NFL in later years of his life)

And its ironic

Dave Duerson ruined so many ex-player lives who suffered from CTE when he was on NFL disability board and denied there claims

He even laughed and cussed at guys for blaming game of football for there plights in life

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:39 PM
  #146
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
Lets shift this back to discussion of Chief player/etc

We will have plenty of time and places to discuss the Duerson/other situations in coming years as NFL fights the families and ex-players

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:42 PM
  #147
Clowe Me
Registered User
 
Clowe Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 530
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 31,698
vCash: 50
The act itself is tragic. So unnecessary and unfortunate for the child and their families. I don't think speculating on the reason why is very appropriate right now.

Clowe Me is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:42 PM
  #148
guinness
those were the days
 
guinness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Missoula, Montana
Country: United States
Posts: 13,377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brodie View Post
you can suffer from mental issues like depression or bipolar disorder without concussions you know

just totally tragic and upsetting. i sincerely hope they cancel the game tomorrow
Chris Henry had brain tissue damage, and IIRC, I don't think he ever suffered from concussions.

Quote:
Repeated blows to the head are the only known cause of CTE, researchers say. Concussive hits can trigger a buildup of toxic tau protein within the brain, which in turn can create damaging tangles and threads in the neural fibers that connect brain tissue. Victims can lose control of their impulses, suffer depression and memory loss, and ultimately develop dementia.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=5333971

Reminds me slightly of prions, and how they affect people suffering from mad cow disease, another type of encephalopathy.

Now, it very well could be that he just snapped, but any possible cause can't be ignored ATM. I'm thinking that the former is likely, but I wouldn't rule out something else.

guinness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 03:56 PM
  #149
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
For the record it was his mother at the scene

Quote:
Jeff Rosen ‏ @ jeff_rosen88 Police say Belcher's mother was visiting, saw Jovan shoot his girlfriend multiple times, then leave
She refered to her as her daughter thus the confusion with initial reports (Says how close she was to her to refer to his GF as her daughter IMO)

Also

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/01...#storylink=cpy

Argument about her arriving home late from "Trey Songz" concert at 1am led to early morning confrontation


Last edited by Blackhawkswincup: 12-01-2012 at 04:25 PM.
Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-01-2012, 04:25 PM
  #150
Blackhawkswincup
Tornado Warning
 
Blackhawkswincup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Chicagoland
Country: United States
Posts: 130,632
vCash: 302
Saw these on Chiefsplanet

Quote:
Lee Hacksaw Hamilton ‏@hacksaw1090

"Chiefs captain Tamba Hali asked NFL to postpone game...NFL response "Play on"..do not understand this at all."
Quote:
Lee Hacksaw Hamilton ‏@hacksaw1090

Chiefs on conference call begging NFL to move game to Monday nite-asking Crennel coach 30-hours after player killed himself infront coach

Blackhawkswincup is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:41 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.