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2013 Hall of Fame Ballot (No one elected)

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Old
01-08-2013, 01:11 PM
  #51
robert terwilliger
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dawson has the 8th worst obp in the hall. he's ahead of brooks robinson, who was 10 times the defensive player dawson was, and a lot of good, not great players.

he shouldn't be in.

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01-08-2013, 01:23 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
dawson has the 8th worst obp in the hall. he's ahead of brooks robinson, who was 10 times the defensive player dawson was, and a lot of good, not great players.

he shouldn't be in.
Ill take that over saying Dawson was a bad player. He really wasnt. I dont think he is HOF material myself, but saying he was bad, which imo, bad is somebody like Milton Bradley or Ron Karkovice. Dawson had a few good years and his season in 87 can be considered elite considering the situation of the league at the time.

Not HOF worthy, but not bad at all.

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01-08-2013, 01:29 PM
  #53
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how's "bad in comparison to everyone else in the hall"?

dawson is on a pretty low tier for me, the undeserved mvp he won probably put him there too.

rice isn't much better. that he made it and dwight evans lasted three years before dropping off is a travesty. evans was a much better player.

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01-08-2013, 02:39 PM
  #54
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Here's who I'd vote for again.

Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Piazza
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio
Sammy Sosa
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Mark McGwire
Fred McGriff


I think if McGriff had 7 more HRs he'd be in already.

McGwire over Edgar Martinez is a bit of a homer vote on my part. The only thing McGwire has going for him is HR and that coupled with "ZOMG, STEROIDZ!!" I don't think he ever gets in.

And as I said before Kenny Lofton get's underrated. It'd be nice to see him get at least the 5% to stay on the ballot.


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01-08-2013, 02:46 PM
  #55
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In other news. I just read Jon Heyman's article on his ballot and he's a clown. He's one of the biggest "CHEATERS!!!11!" people around and dances around it in his story saying basically he's fine with whatever you believe.

He only voted for Morris, Murphy, Raines, Schilling, McGriff and Mattingly.

He's reasoning against Biggio was he was never "great."

Also he doesn't vote for Piazza and Bagwell simply because they played in that "era," and even though they were never tied to "PEDs" he can't be sure they never took them.

http://www.cbssports.com/columns/sto...rs---this-time

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01-08-2013, 02:57 PM
  #56
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trammell should be in as well.

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01-08-2013, 04:59 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
name them.

using dumb stats like era, morris has an era of almost 4, spending most of his time pitching for good teams in detroit, minnesota and toronto in a weaker offensive era.

jenkins actually had seasons where he was the best pitcher in baseball. morris had seasons where he wasn't the best pitcher on his own team. morris never had an era under 3. under 3! in the era he pitched in, if he were as good as people seem to think he is...you'd think he might have done that one or two times.

morris's candidacy is built entirely on game 7 in 1991. while it was a fantastically pitched game, it's not enough to make him worthy of being considered one of the best players ever. there's a difference between a hall of fame career and a hall of fame game. jim abbott pitched a no-hitter, he's not in the hall of fame either.

as for the last line of your argument, because there are bad players like dawson and rice in the hall of fame doesn't mean we start rewarding mediocrity like morris. the idea would be to try and learn from mistakes and start inducting players who are actually worthy of induction. not inducting guys because of opening day starts.
Much simpler case against Morris: he would have the highest ERA in the hall. Statistically, he would be the worst pitcher ever inducted. He is a joke candidate who should feel honored he made it to a second year on the ballot.

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01-08-2013, 05:09 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
He's reasoning against Biggio was he was never "great."

Heyman is an idiot. While Biggio was never great, he was a very good player for a long time. Over 3000 hits (20th all time) and over 1000 extra base hits (31st all time). Biggio is a HOFer.


Also 3rd all time in lead off home runs and 2nd all time in hit by pitch.

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01-08-2013, 05:41 PM
  #59
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Heyman is an idiot. While Biggio was never great, he was a very good player for a long time. Over 3000 hits (20th all time) and over 1000 extra base hits (31st all time). Biggio is a HOFer.


Also 3rd all time in lead off home runs and 2nd all time in hit by pitch.
Biggio was great. He was at one point the best player in all of baseball according to Bill James.

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01-08-2013, 05:48 PM
  #60
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Biggio is a hofer.

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01-08-2013, 06:29 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
how's "bad in comparison to everyone else in the hall"?

dawson is on a pretty low tier for me, the undeserved mvp he won probably put him there too.

rice isn't much better. that he made it and dwight evans lasted three years before dropping off is a travesty. evans was a much better player.
Yeah, he isn't shoe-in HOF material, but that generation of players had only a few hitters that really deserved it. Brett, Schmidt, Jackson, Ripken, Murray and a few more. When comparing HOF generations there is quite a difference. Sometimes, I think they look at who stood out among a generation as well as look at stats and impact on the game. Look at this past generation (and previous ones) and the stats McGwire, Sosa, Bonds accumulated. They look like they were hitters from the 30's.

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01-08-2013, 06:51 PM
  #62
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Much simpler case against Morris: he would have the highest ERA in the hall. Statistically, he would be the worst pitcher ever inducted. He is a joke candidate who should feel honored he made it to a second year on the ballot.
Sucks for Andy Pettitte then. He won't be considered for the HoF either.

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01-08-2013, 06:55 PM
  #63
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Sucks for Andy Pettitte then. He won't be considered for the HoF either.
So? He shouldn't be.

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01-08-2013, 07:05 PM
  #64
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LOL @ anyone who says Biggio wasn't great. Incredibly versatile and "great" at pretty much everything he did. If he isn't an HOFer then I just don't know anymore.

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01-08-2013, 07:10 PM
  #65
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So? He shouldn't be.
I've heard otherwise.

Nor Schilling should be in it. 216 wins? 3.46 ERA? No Cy Youngs. He was a good pitcher, maybe had one or two seasons where he was a bit better but he wasn't that great of a pitcher and the only reason is because he was part of the Red Sox team that won a WS.

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01-08-2013, 07:48 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
I've heard otherwise.

Nor Schilling should be in it. 216 wins? 3.46 ERA? No Cy Youngs. He was a good pitcher, maybe had one or two seasons where he was a bit better but he wasn't that great of a pitcher and the only reason is because he was part of the Red Sox team that won a WS.
That's right.

Pettitte, Schilling, and Morris were good pitchers, but they were not Hall Of Fame worthy.

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01-08-2013, 07:55 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
I've heard otherwise.

Nor Schilling should be in it. 216 wins? 3.46 ERA? No Cy Youngs. He was a good pitcher, maybe had one or two seasons where he was a bit better but he wasn't that great of a pitcher and the only reason is because he was part of the Red Sox team that won a WS.
Schilling: 3260 IP 3.46 ERA (127 ERA+)
Morris: 3842 IP 3.90 ERA (105 ERA+)

Curt Schilling was a vastly better pitcher than Jack Morris. Probably made up for with Jack's legendary postseason numbers though, right?

Morris: 92 IP 3.80 ERA 7-4 W-L
Schilling: 133 IP 2.23 ERA 11-2 W-L

Oh.

I am borderline on Schilling, but if Curt Schilling isn't allowed in Cooperstown, Jack Morris shouldn't be allowed in New York state.

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01-08-2013, 08:44 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Slim Charles View Post
Schilling: 3260 IP 3.46 ERA (127 ERA+)
Morris: 3842 IP 3.90 ERA (105 ERA+)

Curt Schilling was a vastly better pitcher than Jack Morris. Probably made up for with Jack's legendary postseason numbers though, right?

Morris: 92 IP 3.80 ERA 7-4 W-L
Schilling: 133 IP 2.23 ERA 11-2 W-L

Oh.

I am borderline on Schilling, but if Curt Schilling isn't allowed in Cooperstown, Jack Morris shouldn't be allowed in New York state.
Schilling - 20 years in the MLB - 216 Wins, 146 losses
Morris - 18 years in the MLB - 254 Wins, 186 losses

I'm borderline on Morris but when I'm hearing guys like Schilling and Pettitte rumored to be HoF worthy, I really question that.

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01-08-2013, 08:53 PM
  #69
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Much simpler case against Morris: he would have the highest ERA in the hall. Statistically, he would be the worst pitcher ever inducted. He is a joke candidate who should feel honored he made it to a second year on the ballot.
If the postseason didn't exist, nobody would be discussing Jack Morris for the HHOF.

However, in the 1984 and 1991 World Series, he went a combined 7-0 with a ~2.00 ERA. He was a postseason monster who was the most/2nd most important player and most important pitcher on two Championship teams who wouldn't have won without him. And that counts for a lot.

I don't know if Morris should be in or not, and he's certainly borderline. But looking at only his regular season numbers is just ridiculous.

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01-08-2013, 08:59 PM
  #70
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but then if you look at those two postseasons you have to look at how his postseason ended up as average as it did.

morris shouldn't get in. i'm on the fence at schilling getting in, and that's even as a fan of the team that he pitched for on one leg to win a championship. but again, jack morris pitched 563 more innings as schilling...and gave up 569 more runs.

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01-08-2013, 09:21 PM
  #71
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Jack Morris was awful in the post season in 1992, although he was the first Blue Jays pitcher to 20 wins..his sparkling 0-4 record was just terrible.

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01-08-2013, 09:25 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Yeah, he isn't shoe-in HOF material, but that generation of players had only a few hitters that really deserved it. Brett, Schmidt, Jackson, Ripken, Murray and a few more. When comparing HOF generations there is quite a difference. Sometimes, I think they look at who stood out among a generation as well as look at stats and impact on the game. Look at this past generation (and previous ones) and the stats McGwire, Sosa, Bonds accumulated. They look like they were hitters from the 30's.
the funny thing is that dawson and rice shared outfields with more deserving players; dawson had raines and rice had evans. both raines and evans were better than their teammates but evans, as mentioned, is off the ballot, and raines is (thankfully) gaining support.

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01-08-2013, 09:36 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
I've heard otherwise.

Nor Schilling should be in it. 216 wins? 3.46 ERA? No Cy Youngs. He was a good pitcher, maybe had one or two seasons where he was a bit better but he wasn't that great of a pitcher and the only reason is because he was part of the Red Sox team that won a WS.
this can be addressed by two things.

first off, schilling shared the national league with better pitchers such as maddux, glavine and johnson. he finished 4th in cy voting in 1997, behind pedro (fine), maddux (fine) and denny neagle, who won more games. in 98, he didn't get any votes, but trevor hoffman finished second in voting.

the problem becomes that the writers don't vote for certain players, whether they're deserving or not, and then hold that vote against them when it comes to the hall of fame. they're doing kind of the opposite with morris, they didn't vote for him for jack **** when he was a player but now they're trying to tell us how "dominant" and "awesome" he was. if he were either of those things, if he were the "winningest pitcher of the 80's" you'd think he might have won an award. or finished second.

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01-08-2013, 10:09 PM
  #74
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Biggio was great. He was at one point the best player in all of baseball according to Bill James.

At which point? His best season was 97. His best stretch was 95-99 and there were handfull of players better than Biggio. Bonds, Junior, A-Rod just to name some of top of my head.

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01-08-2013, 10:11 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
Schilling - 20 years in the MLB - 216 Wins, 146 losses
Morris - 18 years in the MLB - 254 Wins, 186 losses

I'm borderline on Morris but when I'm hearing guys like Schilling and Pettitte rumored to be HoF worthy, I really question that.
It's 2013, there's no excuse for using W-L record to judge baseball pitchers anymore. (I threw it in their playoff comparison to preempt any "pitched to the score argument". Schilling easily has the better credentials without it.) Curt Schilling wasn't on a decent team between 1993 and 2000, it drags his W-L down, since that's a team stat and all.

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