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2013 Hall of Fame Ballot (No one elected)

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Old
01-08-2013, 09:22 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by darko View Post
At which point? His best season was 97. His best stretch was 95-99 and there were handfull of players better than Biggio. Bonds, Junior, A-Rod just to name some of top of my head.
I'd have to bring out the book again, but I am pretty sure it was '97. James' comment was something along the lines of that being the first year somebody surpassed Bonds as best player. Even if you consider Bonds better, which is justifiable, it still makes him great.

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01-08-2013, 09:24 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
If the postseason didn't exist, nobody would be discussing Jack Morris for the HHOF.

However, in the 1984 and 1991 World Series, he went a combined 7-0 with a ~2.00 ERA. He was a postseason monster who was the most/2nd most important player and most important pitcher on two Championship teams who wouldn't have won without him. And that counts for a lot.

I don't know if Morris should be in or not, and he's certainly borderline. But looking at only his regular season numbers is just ridiculous.
He was only decent in the 1991 ALCS, terrible in 1992, and left of the 1993 playoff roster. If Morris was actually borderline, I'd throw him in since Game 7 1991 is certainly one of the best pitching performances of my lifetime. He's not though.
Full list of pitchers with ERAs over 3.50 in the Hall of Fame: Red Ruffing (3.80), Deadballer Hank O'Day (3.74), Ted Lyons (3.67), Jesse Haines (3.64), Herb Pennock (3.60), Waite Hoyt, (3.59), Early Wynn (3.54), Burleigh Grimes (3.53).
O'Day is in for his time as a manager/umpire as much as anything, as he was the Merkle's ***** umpire. Of the other seven, five played during the high scoring 1920s and 1930s, while Ruffing and Wynn have at least five hundred extra innings on Morris. Jack Morris would be the worst regular season pitcher in the Hall of Fame.

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01-08-2013, 09:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
I'd have to bring out the book again, but I am pretty sure it was '97. James' comment was something along the lines of that being the first year somebody surpassed Bonds as best player. Even if you consider Bonds better, which is justifiable, it still makes him great.
It's been years since I read it, but James spotted Griffey and Bonds some huge amount of runs based on their superior power numbers. He then tried to argue that Biggio earned each one of them back with his base running, defense, playing a position where offense is a premium, getting hit by pitches all the time, and just doing every single little thing, which made up for the fact that he didn't do any of the big things as well as those two. It's been too long for me to really evaluate whether James adequately makes the case that Biggio completely catches up to those two, but the point remains that Biggio was very underrated because he did a ton of things well as opposed to being great at any one thing, other than HBP.

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01-08-2013, 09:54 PM
  #79
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Wait a second.... Tim Raines?

Didnt he carry dope onto the field with him in his pocket? Now, if rewarding him with the HOF over much better players like Bonds and Sosa?

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01-08-2013, 09:59 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Charles View Post
It's been years since I read it, but James spotted Griffey and Bonds some huge amount of runs based on their superior power numbers. He then tried to argue that Biggio earned each one of them back with his base running, defense, playing a position where offense is a premium, getting hit by pitches all the time, and just doing every single little thing, which made up for the fact that he didn't do any of the big things as well as those two. It's been too long for me to really evaluate whether James adequately makes the case that Biggio completely catches up to those two, but the point remains that Biggio was very underrated because he did a ton of things well as opposed to being great at any one thing, other than HBP.
Are you sure it wasn't Larry Walker in 97? He did everything as well and better than Bonds that year and maybe for a 2-3 year span.

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01-08-2013, 10:05 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim Charles View Post
It's been years since I read it, but James spotted Griffey and Bonds some huge amount of runs based on their superior power numbers. He then tried to argue that Biggio earned each one of them back with his base running, defense, playing a position where offense is a premium, getting hit by pitches all the time, and just doing every single little thing, which made up for the fact that he didn't do any of the big things as well as those two. It's been too long for me to really evaluate whether James adequately makes the case that Biggio completely catches up to those two, but the point remains that Biggio was very underrated because he did a ton of things well as opposed to being great at any one thing, other than HBP.
While I did not entirely buy the argument that Biggio was better, the fact that a case could be made to me makes him "great" as opposed to simply very good. If you had to be better than Bonds or Griffey to be great, then nobody else was great because nobody else was better.

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01-08-2013, 10:05 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Are you sure it wasn't Larry Walker in 97? He did everything as well and better than Bonds that year and maybe for a 2-3 year span.
Walker is hurt severely by playing in Colorado.

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01-08-2013, 10:20 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
While I did not entirely buy the argument that Biggio was better, the fact that a case could be made to me makes him "great" as opposed to simply very good. If you had to be better than Bonds or Griffey to be great, then nobody else was great because nobody else was better.
Nobody in the history of baseball is better then Bonds.

Offensively, I would take Sosa over Griffey.

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01-08-2013, 10:34 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
Nobody in the history of baseball is better then Bonds.
The argument wasn't against him overall but in that time frame.

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01-08-2013, 10:40 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SniperHF View Post
The argument wasn't against him overall but in that time frame.
And even then nobody comes close to Bonds.

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01-08-2013, 11:02 PM
  #86
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I just read that Andre Dawson would consider it a travesty should Bonds and Clemens make the hall. He doesn't want his club's exclusivity tarnished. If he feels that strongly he should voluntarily revoke his own induction.

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01-08-2013, 11:57 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Slim Charles View Post
It's 2013, there's no excuse for using W-L record to judge baseball pitchers anymore. (I threw it in their playoff comparison to preempt any "pitched to the score argument". Schilling easily has the better credentials without it.) Curt Schilling wasn't on a decent team between 1993 and 2000, it drags his W-L down, since that's a team stat and all.
It's only a team stat now because of relief pitchers and closers. He had 83 complete games. Morris had 175 complete games, so yes Morris' ERA is going to be high in the 80s and early 90s because compared to today's pitchers only a few pitchers in a blue moon get complete games. BTW Schilling was on a decent team between 1993 and 2000. Unless the Phillies didn't finish 3rd place in each of those years and Schilling didn't get 17 wins one of the seasons.

Here's one, when Ichiro retires will he get into the HOF? He only has 104 home runs and a .419 slugging percentage.

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01-09-2013, 04:57 AM
  #88
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so you forgive morris's higher era in a better pitcher's era because he threw more complete games? even with more complete games, morris was a worse pitcher.

and i swear to god if you bring up "he pitched to the score!" i'm going to hunt you down.

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01-09-2013, 07:53 AM
  #89
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Last night I was watching that MLB Network round table thing. My first thought after while is Chris Russo is a clown and I have no idea why he was on it.

The only people who mattered on it as actual voters were Posnanski and Verducci.

Posnanski was the most level head one in the whole thing. He was also the only one who said he would vote for Bonds and Clemens. Although Costas said he would too, after withholding for a year.

Verducci said using steroids was like using an aluminum bat when everyone else had wood. While I disagree on his views on the users, I did however agree with him on McGriff deserving to be in and that Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, etc shouldn't be punished just for the era they played in when they never been tied to "PEDs."

I was surprised when everyone actually brought up greenies and amphetamines that all the old timers used to use. But then they quickly dismissed it saying steroids are a whole different animal and greenies and amphetamines don't help performance in the same way.


Here are Verducci and Posnanski's Ballots:

Posnanski: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Alan Trammall, Edgar Martinez and Larry Walker.

Verducci: Biggio, Bagwell, Morris, Raines, Schilling and Fred McGriff.


Last edited by Big Poppa Puck: 01-09-2013 at 11:02 AM. Reason: EDIT: Fixed Posnanski Ballot
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01-09-2013, 08:47 AM
  #90
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Baseball hall of fame voting today? Summary: i.imgur.com/74pFU.gif

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01-09-2013, 09:09 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iRep TheWingedWheel View Post
Last night I was watching that MLB Network round table thing. My first thought after while is Chris Russo is a clown and I have no idea why he was on it.

The only people who mattered on it as actual voters were Posnanski and Verducci.

Posnanski was the most level head one in the whole thing. He was also the only one who said he would vote for Bonds and Clemens. Although Costas said he would too, after withholding for a year.

Verducci said using steroids was like using an aluminum bat when everyone else had wood. While I disagree on his views on the users, I did however agree with him on McGriff deserving to be in and that Biggio, Bagwell, Piazza, etc shouldn't be punished just for the era they played in when they never been tied to "PEDs."

I was surprised when everyone actually brought up greenies and amphetamines that all the old timers used to use. But then they quickly dismissed it saying steroids are a whole different animal and greenies and amphetamines don't help performance in the same way.


Here are Verducci and Posnanski's Ballots:

Posnanski: Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Alan Trammall and Jack Morris.

Verducci: Biggio, Bagwell, Morris, Raines, Schilling and Fred McGriff.
Sometimes Verducci has to show everyone that he's actually an idiot.

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01-09-2013, 10:10 AM
  #92
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Krukow on why Bonds is HOF-worthy: "Every generation is tainted in some way. There's not a generation that didn't cheat in some way."

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01-09-2013, 10:15 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by the8bandarmadillo View Post
It's only a team stat now because of relief pitchers and closers. He had 83 complete games. Morris had 175 complete games, so yes Morris' ERA is going to be high in the 80s and early 90s because compared to today's pitchers only a few pitchers in a blue moon get complete games. BTW Schilling was on a decent team between 1993 and 2000. Unless the Phillies didn't finish 3rd place in each of those years and Schilling didn't get 17 wins one of the seasons.

Here's one, when Ichiro retires will he get into the HOF? He only has 104 home runs and a .419 slugging percentage.
It has always been and will always ve a team stat, it is dependent on the team's offense. From 94 to 98, the Phillies finished 8th, 13th, 14th, 13th, and ninth in the NL in runs. Schilling's 1998 and 1999 seasons are textbook examples of what is wrong with the W-L stat as the offense let him down in both.
If you take out the three years he had one of the worst offenses in baseball supporting him, Schilling has a better W% lifetime than Morris. In the interest of fairness I ran the numbers after throwing out Morris's worst three years and it is still Schilling. Either way, this is all pointless as Schilling was much better at preventing runs which is the part of his job a pitcher actually controls.

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01-09-2013, 10:53 AM
  #94
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One last time on the steroid issues as it pertains to the Hall:

It's the Hall Of Fame, not Hall of Morals or a Church. Regardless of the opinion of steroids (I'm of one that they have some effect, but it's marginal at best and greatly overrated. Others think they are magic pills.) the purpose of the Hall of Fame is to showcase the history of the game and honor the great players.

Bonds and Clemens (and Sosa, McGwire, and Palmeiro to a lesser extent) were all time greats no matter what they took. And in an era in which supposedly nearly half players were taking them they still stood out, and that's not debatable no matter what your opinion on "PEDs" are. They were still great while using, Nook Logan and Todd Pratt still blew.

Do I think Bonds' breaks the HR record without the steroids help? Probably not, but it's not like he goes from 762 to 362 with out them. Like I said before they're not magic pills. They're not turning ground outs, pop ups, strikeouts or things like that into HRs. Maybe that warning track fly ball gets out now but that's it. They DO NOT improve hand-eye coordination, baseball smarts or God given talent. The only argument that I can view as somewhat valid is the one that says steroids helped extend the careers/primes of Bonds, Clemens, etc a little longer because it helps with conditioning and endurance.


Here's another thing: Baseball players have always tried to get an edge. Players in the 50s and 60s used greenies and amphetamines, players doctored baseball, used cork bats, etc. But those guys are all idolized. Bob Gibson has even said that if steroids were available when he played he probably woulda took them. Did Bob Gibson need steroids to be good? How much better would they have made him? I doubt it would be much, if at all, considering he was amazing already. What about players taking workout supplements, protein shakes, red bull, etc? That's trying to gain competitive advantage too. Now obviously I'm not saying they have the same effect of steroids, but they're taken with the same thought in mind; "What can I do to perform better?"

Also for the "CHEATER!!" people, is it really cheating if it wasn't illegal in the MLB? Cause it wasn't at the time. Then there's the whole morality/personality issue. Well Ty Cobb was as racist as they come and was a pretty terrible human being, but he's worshiped. I'm sure there are other players who are/were bad people too.


Listen, steroids are not the like magic basketball from Space Jam that turns scrawny, nerdy, scrubs into Charles Barkley and Patrick Ewing. Bonds, Clemens, et al deserve to be recognized for the career in the baseball museum of history as does that whole era. I don't even care if they put "Was tied to steroid use" on their plaques if it makes people feel better. Same goes for Pete Rose, so what he bet as a manager, it's not fair to ignore what he did as a player because of it. His plaque could read "All time hits leader, etc, etc, but he was banned from the game for betting on it as a manager" but that's a whole nother discussion.


/rant.

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01-09-2013, 11:19 AM
  #95
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Not that he's a Hall of Famer but here are some Julio Franco fun facts I found. The ageless wonder.

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The first pitcher Julio Franco faced was Bob Forsch Franco singled to center. The last pitcher Julio Franco faced was Lee Gardner Franco singled to right. Lee Gardner (b. Jan. 16, 1975) is almost exactly 25 years younger than Bob Forsch (b. Jan. 13, 1950).

Franco was the sixth batter to face Roger Clemens he grounded to second. At 48, Franco homered off Randy Johnson. He was two-for-two against Greg Maddux, and got hits off Pedro Martinez, Tom Seaver, Jim Palmer, Goose Gossage, Phil Niekro and Steve Carlton.

Franco faced every pitcher on this year's Hall of Fame ballot. Every single one.

If that doesn't impress you, then try this one: Franco also faced every single pitcher on the 2004 ballot, except Bruce Sutter:

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01-09-2013, 01:00 PM
  #96
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No one elected

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01-09-2013, 01:00 PM
  #97
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No one has been elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame. Craig Biggio was 39 votes short of selection.

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01-09-2013, 01:01 PM
  #98
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Only the 1% are elected

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01-09-2013, 01:02 PM
  #99
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Morris didn't really get any rise. Really surprised he was that high.

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01-09-2013, 01:04 PM
  #100
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Kind of surprising.

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