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Old
07-12-2013, 01:03 PM
  #51
htpwn
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
or Russian or Ukrainian or pretty much all slavic (though UKR/RUS is usually -sky when converted to English from cyrillic, but obv. pronounced the same)
To a point.

The suffix simply means "of." It is very much like "van" in Dutch names. Wisniewski, for instance, means an individual from one of the various cities named Wisniew. Instead of place, the name could refer to an occupation or just a particularly memorable trait about an individual. This is not much different than in English where a name like Johnson means son of John, or Kent means someone from Kent County, or Smith refers to a Blacksmith.

Any name with "-sky" is not Polish, unless it has been changed at some point. A 'y' never follows a 'k' in the Polish language. Its a basic grammatical rule similar to "i before e except after c" in English. Even ignoring this, the 'y' would not produce the 'ee' ("-skee") sound.

All that said, nobody has mentioned Mikhail Grabovski yet. Grabowski is a very famous Polish surname, though I'm not implying he is necessarily related to any of the famous bearers of that name.

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Old
07-13-2013, 03:01 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
To a point.

The suffix simply means "of." It is very much like "van" in Dutch names. Wisniewski, for instance, means an individual from one of the various cities named Wisniew. Instead of place, the name could refer to an occupation or just a particularly memorable trait about an individual. This is not much different than in English where a name like Johnson means son of John, or Kent means someone from Kent County, or Smith refers to a Blacksmith.

Any name with "-sky" is not Polish, unless it has been changed at some point. A 'y' never follows a 'k' in the Polish language. Its a basic grammatical rule similar to "i before e except after c" in English. Even ignoring this, the 'y' would not produce the 'ee' ("-skee") sound.

All that said, nobody has mentioned Mikhail Grabovski yet. Grabowski is a very famous Polish surname, though I'm not implying he is necessarily related to any of the famous bearers of that name.
You're correct about -sky not being Polish, but this is a convenience of Polish being in the Latin alphabet whereas Ukr/Rus/Blr have to convert, often via different systems of transliteration (as we've seen the mess with the IIHF recently which contradicts actual Russian/Ukrainian systems so players will have different spellings in latin on their passports and rosters....I digress). This is further compacted with the Russian -ov suffix being the Ukrainian -iv suffix. Polish rules filtered down to French and German conversion rules, so often any Ukrainian or Russian who emigrated via these countries (WW2, or WW1 for western Ukrainians who were under Austrian rule) end up having the V's turned into W's and so on.

example:
The city Kharkiv converted from Russian to German ends up being "Charkow", someone with a surname Charkowski sure looks Polish to me (even though the source of the surname in this instance would be Ukrainian.

as for ski/sky
Polish - ski (obviously)
Ukrainian - skyi (official on current passports), -sky (most common)
Russian - sky (simplified, -skyy in actual Russian)
Belarusian - ski

and just for fun based on the 'Wisniew' example:
Vitali Vishnevski, James Wisniewski, Lubomir Visnovsky, Ivan Vishnevskiy

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07-13-2013, 04:10 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
You're correct about -sky not being Polish, but this is a convenience of Polish being in the Latin alphabet whereas Ukr/Rus/Blr have to convert, often via different systems of transliteration (as we've seen the mess with the IIHF recently which contradicts actual Russian/Ukrainian systems so players will have different spellings in latin on their passports and rosters....I digress). This is further compacted with the Russian -ov suffix being the Ukrainian -iv suffix. Polish rules filtered down to French and German conversion rules, so often any Ukrainian or Russian who emigrated via these countries (WW2, or WW1 for western Ukrainians who were under Austrian rule) end up having the V's turned into W's and so on.
via the Czechs, actually.

Quote:
example:
The city Kharkiv converted from Russian to German ends up being "Charkow", someone with a surname Charkowski sure looks Polish to me (even though the source of the surname in this instance would be Ukrainian.

as for ski/sky
Polish - ski (obviously)
Ukrainian - skyi (official on current passports), -sky (most common)
Russian - sky (simplified, -skyy in actual Russian)
Belarusian - ski

and just for fun based on the 'Wisniew' example:
Vitali Vishnevski, James Wisniewski, Lubomir Visnovsky, Ivan Vishnevskiy
I can certainly see and understand your point. A name could look be 100% Ukrainian and look Polish simply by how it is transliterated. However, I would add that just because a name may originate inside the modern day state of Ukraine does not mean it is necessarily Ukrainian either. Western Ukraine had a very large Polish population prior to the Second World War and a person could easily be 100% Polish and have name saying their from L'wow, or a person could be ethnically Ukrainian with a Polish identity, or even post-war, ethnically Polish with an Ukrainian identity.

In the end, and to state the obvious, surnames are a guessing game in any nation, let alone in areas as previously diverse as Western Ukraine and Belarus.

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07-13-2013, 06:01 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
In the end, and to state the obvious, surnames are a guessing game in any nation, let alone in areas as previously diverse as Western Ukraine and Belarus.
Correct.

Add in intermarriage and carrying on the father's name and then we start dealing with percentages

and to make the 'Charkowski' example messier, 'Kharkiv' was named after someone named Khariton, a name of Greek origin (Byzantine?)

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07-14-2013, 02:07 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
Polish rules filtered down to French and German conversion rules, so often any Ukrainian or Russian who emigrated via these countries (WW2, or WW1 for western Ukrainians who were under Austrian rule) end up having the V's turned into W's and so on.

example:
The city Kharkiv converted from Russian to German ends up being "Charkow", someone with a surname Charkowski sure looks Polish to me (even though the source of the surname in this instance would be Ukrainian.
Kharkiv is not the name of that city, it's merely its English name, I have no idea why anyone would expect the Germans (or anybody else for that matter) to simply go with the English name instead of using their own language.

Kharkiv ends up Charkow because the letter в translates to German into a W.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Polish conversion rules.

Same goes for 'Ch'.

з also translates to 's' (hence Morosow) and ц translates to 'z' (hence Karpowzew).

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07-14-2013, 03:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Kharkiv is not the name of that city, it's merely its English name,
we're speaking English here, are we not? It's the city's official name in the latin alphabet, for any latin based language.

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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Kharkiv ends up Charkow because the letter в translates to German into a W.

That has absolutely nothing to do with Polish conversion rules.
They use the same rules, turning v's into latin W's, that's what they have to do with one another.

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07-14-2013, 05:48 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
we're speaking English here, are we not? It's the city's official name in the latin alphabet, for any latin based language.
Kharkiv might be the official name since 2010 but that's completely irrelevant since it's not the name they are using in German (obviously Charkow is a translation of Харьков).

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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
They use the same rules, turning v's into latin W's, that's what they have to do with one another.
They're not turning a V into a W, there's no V in Харьков.

English follows the same rule as Slovak, does it follow that the Slovak rule "filtered down" to English? No, and neither did the English rule "filter down" to Slovak. Similarily the Polish rule didn't "filter down" to German. All these languages follow their own internal logic, and simply use the corresponding letter to translate 'в'.

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Old
07-16-2013, 11:17 AM
  #58
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Now you're just being pedantic.

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07-16-2013, 11:46 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
They're not turning a V into a W, there's no V in Харьков.

English follows the same rule as Slovak, does it follow that the Slovak rule "filtered down" to English? No, and neither did the English rule "filter down" to Slovak. Similarily the Polish rule didn't "filter down" to German. All these languages follow their own internal logic, and simply use the corresponding letter to translate 'в'.
No. Slovak presumably followed Czech in that regard. Czech nationalists changed the language in the 19th century as a way to disassociate the written language from German.

Polish became a written language under Czech influence in the Middle Ages. The "w" to mark the "v" sound was one of the grammatical carry-overs, if you will (you can tell I'm not a linguist), from Old Czech that Polish maintained.

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Old
07-28-2013, 01:44 PM
  #60
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Hej gajs? Hał ar ju?

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