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Lockout Thread #3: The Rollercoaster Continues...

View Poll Results: When will the lockout end?
December 15-31st,2012 6 19.35%
January 2013 13 41.94%
September 2013 6 19.35%
October 2013-December 2013 2 6.45%
January 2014 0 0%
September 2014 0 0%
October 2014-January 2015 0 0%
NHL is gone forever 4 12.90%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:29 PM
  #226
Master Lok
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reimer View Post
...and where exactly does that money come from?

If my business treated our customers like this I wouldn't have a toilet to piss in. I think you have the entitlement bass ackwards.

However feeling that you've been done wrong is something different.
Of course the money comes from the fans. But it's like saying that you're a regular customer of Hostess Twinkies. If Hostess Twinkies went on lockout/strike and didn't make anymore, then claiming that you were owed something is ridiculous. Just buy another snack type, Hostess doesn't owe you anything.

And now that Twinkies is out of business, should you sue them because they owe you for your fandom loyalty? Not hardly.

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12-05-2012, 05:44 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
I work in the service industry near the arenas. You cry entitlement, some people here are trying to make an honest living like myself. My bar had to lay off a lot of staff members because of this lockout. And I live in Toronto and my bar suffered a little last year with the NBA lockout.
Wait a second. You never mentioned that your livelihood was dependent on the NHL. Your comment said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
fans shouldn't lose sight of what the NHL and the players put us through.
. Your stated that the NHL owed "us" fans, not "us industry dependent on their business". As a fan, the NHL doesn't owe you anything. As a fan, you can choose to support their business model, or not. That is your choice. the NHL doesn't have to reciprocate.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
Usually, all the money I make with Leafs games are gone and I'm pretty much in dire financial straits.
While that's unfortunate, again the Leafs don't owe you anything. It was your decision to base your business / living on their continuation. I am assuming that the Leafs didn't ask you to commit a business model dependent on them, nor did they promise anything to you that they haven't fulfilled.

Unless you can state that the Leafs actually made some type of agreement or promise to your bar/restaurant industry that they would forever play hockey games and never have an interruption again. It's like there hasn't been a lockout/strike every time the CBA has expired.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue And Orange View Post
Your comment was ignorant, selfish, and makes you look like a complete jack ass. So please, don't talk to me.
Now this is the entitlement that I'm talking about. You're mad because I disregarded your financial pain. While your loss is unfortunate, I'm not responsible for it either. While I admit to being ignorant of your exact situation, care to explain how I was selfish or a jack ass? Or were you simply throwing out insults and ran out of ideas?

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:54 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Of course the money comes from the fans. But it's like saying that you're a regular customer of Hostess Twinkies. If Hostess Twinkies went on lockout/strike and didn't make anymore, then claiming that you were owed something is ridiculous. Just buy another snack type, Hostess doesn't owe you anything.

And now that Twinkies is out of business, should you sue them because they owe you for your fandom loyalty? Not hardly.

Good analogy.

I have chosen to stay out of this debate but this sense of entitlement you are responding to is truly astonishing.

Since when did a voluntary emotional investment entitle someone to anything.

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:57 PM
  #229
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You know it is a interesting debate really. I tend to think the NHL does owe the fans. If you are a loyal customer of a resteraunt and it closes due to a union dispute with its employees. Don't you think you have a right to say, hey what about me? I think there is a sense of entitlement that is valid on behalf of the fans. We are the only reason hockey exists. We are the only reason grown men can make money playing and owning hockey teams. I think in some ways they do owe us.

That being said, I do agree partly with your statement as well. Which is why I am not going to begrudge them all that much. I will be back watching games.

ps. just in regards to the anology of the resteraunt. I just mean the customer should be entitled to some thought. The workers and owner of the resteraunt should go out of their way to thank the customer ect... and the customer does have the right to say, well make it worth my while to not take my business elsewhere. I guess that is my stance more than anything. Fans can't be personally upset, but they can say, hey... now I want something to not go and watch football instead.
I'm not saying that the fans are powerless. I'm saying that the fans aren't owed anything. They didn't make any agreement with the NHL or NHLPA. There was not agreed on list of things they are responsible for, or not.

That being said, the fans are the ultimate powerbrokers. They have the choice and power to say that this lockout-strike is not agreeable to them and to make an impact with their wallet. Choose to not support the NHL whenever it starts up. Choose to boo any player in public that you see and cry shame on them, you have that ability. The fans can decide that they don't want an NHL team in the city if this is how they conduct their business. Walk away.

If the fans choose to watch the games again, and buy the merchandise and worship the star players again then by their very actions, they are condoning the lockout and strike. All the fans whining and complaining they are owed something is completely meaningless drivel in that circumstance.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:02 PM
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
I'm not saying that the fans are powerless. I'm saying that the fans aren't owed anything. They didn't make any agreement with the NHL or NHLPA. There was not agreed on list of things they are responsible for, or not.

That being said, the fans are the ultimate powerbrokers. They have the choice and power to say that this lockout-strike is not agreeable to them and to make an impact with their wallet. Choose to not support the NHL whenever it starts up. Choose to boo any player in public that you see and cry shame on them, you have that ability. The fans can decide that they don't want an NHL team in the city if this is how they conduct their business. Walk away.

If the fans choose to watch the games again, and buy the merchandise and worship the star players again then by their very actions, they are condoning the lockout and strike. All the fans whining and complaining they are owed something is completely meaningless drivel in that circumstance.
I agree. I guess I am just pointing out the differnce between legally owed something and reasonably owed something. Ya, fans can't be upset that the NHL did somethign wrong to them. However, they can be pissed that they supported them all these years and it appears as thought they are being taken for granted.

It is a shame that the fans could'nt all some how agree on one petition. I know there were few started but they were not that credible and were weird. If there could be some petition that said if the NHL lockout isn't ended by Jan 1st I (instert name) will not go to a game for the next full year. If you had say 10 million people sign something liek that. I think it could actually end the lock out.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:16 PM
  #231
Master Lok
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Originally Posted by okgooil View Post
I agree. I guess I am just pointing out the differnce between legally owed something and reasonably owed something. Ya, fans can't be upset that the NHL did somethign wrong to them. However, they can be pissed that they supported them all these years and it appears as thought they are being taken for granted.

It is a shame that the fans could'nt all some how agree on one petition. I know there were few started but they were not that credible and were weird. If there could be some petition that said if the NHL lockout isn't ended by Jan 1st I (instert name) will not go to a game for the next full year. If you had say 10 million people sign something liek that. I think it could actually end the lock out.
I know what you're saying. But the reality is that petitions, and Internet petitions in particular have no binding obligation and have proven to be meaningless. If I was the owner of an NHL team and saw a petition with 10 million signatures, I would call that bluff and see if people would actually do something. i'm betting that the signators wouldn't follow up.

I think if were serious. TRULY serious. We would need the anti-Copper Jackets campaign. I can't remember if that's what they were called, but remember back in Pocklington days when a group of Oiler supporters went around the business community and roused up business commitments and support for the Oilers and held them to it?

We need the anti-squad to motivate people that we don't want the Edmonton Oilers anymore, to convince people that supporting the team is a bad idea and that actively campaign for the team to leave town.

That is what imo, would take to convince both the PA and owners that the fans have power.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:18 PM
  #232
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Any actual news right now?

I have been away most of the day, seems as though they met and the PA put forth another proposal? Has anyone commented on the proposal or do they plan to meet again today?

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Now this is the entitlement that I'm talking about. You're mad because I disregarded your financial pain. While your loss is unfortunate, I'm not responsible for it either. While I admit to being ignorant of your exact situation, care to explain how I was selfish or a jack ass? Or were you simply throwing out insults and ran out of ideas?
At least you admit that you were ignorant about it, so i take back my comments about calling you a jack ass and selfish. I apologize for that. Emotions got the best of me.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:21 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
Any actual news right now?

I have been away most of the day, seems as though they met and the PA put forth another proposal? Has anyone commented on the proposal or do they plan to meet again today?
I think the main news right now is the lack of it.

Both sides are very tight-lipped about last night and today's meetings.

I can only hope that's a good thing.


I just heard the little blurb on Sportscentre. Both sides have been meeting for about 4.5 hours and they've broken off and reconvened three times so far.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:23 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I think the main news right now is the lack of it.

Both sides are very tight-lipped about last night and today's meetings.

I can only hope that's a good thing.
Thanks!

Well, when it goes bad they make statements to somehow rationalize it to the fans and make their side look more in the right.

So not hearing anything has to be good. I just hope it is good enough.

Let's hope for another 8-9 hour session today and get some actual progress on paper.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:25 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
Any actual news right now?

I have been away most of the day, seems as though they met and the PA put forth another proposal? Has anyone commented on the proposal or do they plan to meet again today?

Pierre LeBrun

Source says next session "very delicate." Today was always going to be tougher as 2 sides put on paper their positions...

Doug Maclean

Counter now from NHL. Both sides working to get done by friday.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:31 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
I know what you're saying. But the reality is that petitions, and Internet petitions in particular have no binding obligation and have proven to be meaningless. If I was the owner of an NHL team and saw a petition with 10 million signatures, I would call that bluff and see if people would actually do something. i'm betting that the signators wouldn't follow up.

I think if were serious. TRULY serious. We would need the anti-Copper Jackets campaign. I can't remember if that's what they were called, but remember back in Pocklington days when a group of Oiler supporters went around the business community and roused up business commitments and support for the Oilers and held them to it?

We need the anti-squad to motivate people that we don't want the Edmonton Oilers anymore, to convince people that supporting the team is a bad idea and that actively campaign for the team to leave town.

That is what imo, would take to convince both the PA and owners that the fans have power.
Well, I think petitions have worked in the past. It is just rare. I looked on line and there were a few, but they were long and ranting and dind't make much sense.

Thats why I am saying it would have to be very specific with a lot of signatures. Something a owner/player would look at and think credible.

Something like.

I (insert name) as a fan of the NHL promise I will not attent a live game for one full year if the lock out is not resolved by Jan 1st.

Something poeple will remember and it is credible they will commit to. If enough people signed, I mean most petitions get 50 k people, at most. I mean if like millions of poeple signed it. To the point where a onwer/player is thinking, hey even if 10% of these poeple follow through on this we will be hurting.

ps. I do agree with you on its limitations. which is why I am saying it would have to be very specific and have a huge amount of signitories.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:37 PM
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
I'm not saying that the fans are powerless. I'm saying that the fans aren't owed anything. They didn't make any agreement with the NHL or NHLPA. There was not agreed on list of things they are responsible for, or not.

That being said, the fans are the ultimate powerbrokers. They have the choice and power to say that this lockout-strike is not agreeable to them and to make an impact with their wallet. Choose to not support the NHL whenever it starts up. Choose to boo any player in public that you see and cry shame on them, you have that ability. The fans can decide that they don't want an NHL team in the city if this is how they conduct their business. Walk away.

If the fans choose to watch the games again, and buy the merchandise and worship the star players again then by their very actions, they are condoning the lockout and strike. All the fans whining and complaining they are owed something is completely meaningless drivel in that circumstance.
I agree with you. In a capitalist society, you get to choose what you want to do with your money. Spend it elsewhere that gives you the same joy or satisfaction or whatever. That is how you tell a business "**** you".

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:40 PM
  #239
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THe NHL does owe the fans an apology. Best way to show that they're sorry:

Make NHL Centre Ice free for this season or have a "free hot dog" week.

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Old
12-05-2012, 06:47 PM
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellagiobob View Post

Pierre LeBrun

Source says next session "very delicate." Today was always going to be tougher as 2 sides put on paper their positions...
This is where it falls apart.

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12-05-2012, 06:48 PM
  #241
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Seeing this on the Oilers PP will be reward enough for me having sat through this lockout waiting and daydreaming for several months...


Hall-RNH-Eberle
JSchultz-Yakupov


Let's get this ****er going and watch some hockey.

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12-05-2012, 06:50 PM
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlapse Vertigo View Post
This is where it falls apart.
I get that you're cynical, but reading around... this is done by Friday. Both sides acknowledge how easy this is to blow-up and are avoiding that outcome, which is an unsubtle change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
Seeing this on the Oilers PP will be reward enough for me having sat through this lockout waiting and daydreaming for several months...


Hall-RNH-Eberle
JSchultz-Yakupov


Let's get this ****er going and watch some hockey.
And I can't wait until I get to discuss actual hockey with you, and point out that arrangement loses the draw and spends more time trying and failing to establish zone pressure.

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12-05-2012, 07:06 PM
  #243
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And I can't wait until I get to discuss actual hockey with you, and point out that arrangement loses the draw and spends more time trying and failing to establish zone pressure.
Sounds good to me. I'd much rather talk actual on-the-ice hockey than CBA negotiation minutiae endlessly.

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12-05-2012, 07:13 PM
  #244
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The sides have broken off for dinner they met on and off for close to 5 hours the pa made some sort of "proposal" the nhl supposedly countered, its not a full fledged proposal rather it outlines the side's stance on key issues
The two sides are expected to get back together tonight

Quote:
@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Warm and fuzzy feelings from last night are gone. Things are tense heading into tonight's meeting. Pivotal session that will tell the tale

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12-05-2012, 07:42 PM
  #245
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I went for beers and wings the other day at BP's with a couple of buddies. On 2 of the 4 t.v. screens they were playing soccer...and on the other 2 they were playing women's basketball. Women's....basketball. Here was my exact reaction...



Please get this done by Friday. Fingers crossed!

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12-05-2012, 08:03 PM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
I know what you're saying. But the reality is that petitions, and Internet petitions in particular have no binding obligation and have proven to be meaningless. If I was the owner of an NHL team and saw a petition with 10 million signatures, I would call that bluff and see if people would actually do something. i'm betting that the signators wouldn't follow up.

I think if were serious. TRULY serious. We would need the anti-Copper Jackets campaign. I can't remember if that's what they were called, but remember back in Pocklington days when a group of Oiler supporters went around the business community and roused up business commitments and support for the Oilers and held them to it?

We need the anti-squad to motivate people that we don't want the Edmonton Oilers anymore, to convince people that supporting the team is a bad idea and that actively campaign for the team to leave town.

That is what imo, would take to convince both the PA and owners that the fans have power.
Good body of work in the thread.

Anyway, its a little funny to see a bunch of diehards like us slogging through still talking about stuff here on an NHL board when there hasn't been any NHL here since April and the conversation turning to boycott, turn your nose at it etc. I already made my decision years ago not to pay to go to games anymore. Whatever works for everybody.
Personally I'm just getting more done, exercising more, getting outside more. One of the great things about doing that is going outside feels positively balmy any time I'm out there. I'm totally acclimated from spending hours of leisure time outside. I think it would have to hit -30 for me to even get uncomfortable. Anything warmer than -20 and I'm at risk of being too warm outside while walking, hiking, snow shoeing, shovelling, etc.

We got ourselves a for real White Christmas anyway. Wow, I'm running out of space to shovel the snow.

Plus I'm just loving driving in this weather..


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12-05-2012, 09:03 PM
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Lok View Post
Of course the money comes from the fans. But it's like saying that you're a regular customer of Hostess Twinkies. If Hostess Twinkies went on lockout/strike and didn't make anymore, then claiming that you were owed something is ridiculous. Just buy another snack type, Hostess doesn't owe you anything.

And now that Twinkies is out of business, should you sue them because they owe you for your fandom loyalty? Not hardly.
Tallahassee may have something to say about that!


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12-05-2012, 09:20 PM
  #248
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"Iain MacIntyre
‏@imacVanSun
Sportsnet's Nick Kypreos says some coaches are calling players to tell them to be ready for imminent return. #CBA"

Matthew Barnaby
‏@MattBarnaby3636
Just got a text from owners side that his guess is season starts on dec 26th.


Not sure if these sources are very reliable... but what else do we have to talk about.


Last edited by HopelessOilFan: 12-05-2012 at 09:21 PM. Reason: .
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12-05-2012, 09:45 PM
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HopelessOilFan View Post
"Iain MacIntyre
‏@imacVanSun
Sportsnet's Nick Kypreos says some coaches are calling players to tell them to be ready for imminent return. #CBA"

Matthew Barnaby
‏@MattBarnaby3636
Just got a text from owners side that his guess is season starts on dec 26th.


Not sure if these sources are very reliable... but what else do we have to talk about.
Yeah that was in a report by nick kypreos I believe. That's obviously not allowed and prompted the league to warn teams. Not sure if its true but definitely interesting. Although even if a deal is reached by the weekend the season probably wouldn't start for another couple weeks


@JSportsnet: Was just told by an NHL Coach, that since @RealKyper reported Coaches contacting players, the teams have been warned to cease and desist

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12-05-2012, 09:55 PM
  #250
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Fingers crossed that this positive news is true. I've enjoyed seeing Eberle, Hall, RNH, and Schultz, but seeing them all in EDM would be more enjoyable.

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