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Lockout Thread #3: The Rollercoaster Continues...

View Poll Results: When will the lockout end?
December 15-31st,2012 6 19.35%
January 2013 13 41.94%
September 2013 6 19.35%
October 2013-December 2013 2 6.45%
January 2014 0 0%
September 2014 0 0%
October 2014-January 2015 0 0%
NHL is gone forever 4 12.90%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:16 PM
  #476
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You know that things are dire when a laid back guy like Dustin Penner finds himself arguing with fans on Twitter.

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12-06-2012, 09:16 PM
  #477
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
At the end of the day, while franchises are failing, 700 NHL players are being asked to split 50% of a $3.3 billion (and growing) pie to play a game they took up because it was so much fun. They are also being asked to limit their guaranteed contracts to 5 years and abide by the terms of the labour agreement for 10 years.

Somehow they have found it within themselves to refuse.

It's like throwing away a winning lottery ticket because you have to pay tax on it.
At the end of the day the owners, of who the majority have never run their club with any eye towards their bottom line, are asking players to swallow a loss of significant bargaining power which will carry foward on to every other CBA signed in the future.

And are being asked to do so after agreeing to take a 12.5% pay cut in an industry that hasn't seen a decline in revenues ever.

It's like being called into your bosses office after completeing 125% of target, getting kicked in the junk by him and then having to spend the next 10 hours negotiating either one punch or two in the face before signing on to your job for next year.

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12-06-2012, 09:16 PM
  #478
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I would so take him at that price in a fraction of a heartbeat. Not someone you want at the negotiating table during CBA talks, but definitely someone you want on your team. He's a bit of a goof but overall I like how he leads.

Absolutely laughable. He is a 4th line plugger. There's a whack of them out there and you can get them for one hell of a lot less than 3.5 million for an injury prone slug like Upshall. Pass.

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12-06-2012, 09:18 PM
  #479
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
based on what....you angry opinion?
Based on the fact that they are the employee in this relationship. The employers will make money without the NHL but the players will not.

Which side do you think has the most leverage? The side without it will be the one to cave and accept they don't like.

The WORST part of this whole thing is the players will accept a deal they likely do not like and in 5+ years we will all laugh at how they were upset when they are rolling in the money again.

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12-06-2012, 09:19 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
At the end of the day, while franchises are failing, 700 NHL players are being asked to split 50% of a $3.3 billion (and growing) pie to play a game they took up because it was so much fun. They are also being asked to limit their guaranteed contracts to 5 years and abide by the terms of the labour agreement for 10 years.

Somehow they have found it within themselves to refuse.

It's like throwing away a winning lottery ticket because you have to pay tax on it.
Nice analogy. Well said.

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12-06-2012, 09:20 PM
  #481
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
Pure, unfounded, speculation.

In the real world: NHL owners, as a group, have decided to shut down their businesses rather than continue to pay ridiculously inflated salaries.
They have shut down the league for 2 months and have already gained a 12.5% reduction in their single biggest expense line.

Who WOULDNT follow this course of action.

These lockouts have been incredibly lucrative from an owners perspective

The idea that the owners are on life support is patently false, they are trading 20-38 games of revenue for extreme gain.

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12-06-2012, 09:21 PM
  #482
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To add to that:
That's what it'll take. In theory if the depth guys outnumber the stars (and they do) they need to speak the **** up and say that they can't afford to not be playing and force a vote and out vote the guys that can afford to wait. The sad thing is that a number of the depth guys will already be passed over when hockey returns. IMO Fehr didn't put it to a vote because he feels it would've been accepted and his agenda couldn't be completed.

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12-06-2012, 09:21 PM
  #483
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I honestly think the players have had it SOO good for such a long time that they have lost the sense of reality when it comes to employer/employee relationships.

Find me a successful business model paying their players 53% of all the dollars that come in the door.
Movie industry.

Music industry.

Art industry.

Basically any industry where the "employees" are more important than "employers", as you perceive their roles. Generally employees are the easiest to replace, but in some case it's the "employers" that are. You can't look at everything in as simple terms as the guy collecting the money from the customer is the most important guy in the equation. Sometimes, they're just the middle man. And that's what the owners are in the NHL, the middle men between us and the players, who really matter.

And remember, a players union is nothing like a regular union. A regular union helps the employees. A players union, these days, helps the league. That's why the players are threatening desertification... because the players know they'll gain more in raw money with an open market, than they'll lose by not having a pension or a say in how the league operates (which they barely have now anyway).

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12-06-2012, 09:22 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
They have shut down the league for 2 months and have already gained a 12.5% reduction in their single biggest expense line.

Who WOULDNT follow this course of action.

These lockouts have been incredibly lucrative from an owners perspective

The idea that the owners are on life support is patently false, they are trading 20-38 games of revenue for extreme gain.
Tell that to teams like Phoenix.

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12-06-2012, 09:23 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
Based on the fact that they are the employee in this relationship. The employers will make money without the NHL but the players will not.

Which side do you think has the most leverage? The side without it will be the one to cave and accept they don't like.

The WORST part of this whole thing is the players will accept a deal they likely do not like and in 5+ years we will all laugh at how they were upset when they are rolling in the money again.
The owners have all the leverage no argument but if you are a player why agree to a new CBA today?

The previous poster said they were going to get "slaughtered". This is just plain wrong, from an objective point of view its hard to see why the owner best deal would be on the table right now.

Waiting is the best strategy for the NHLPA

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12-06-2012, 09:23 PM
  #486
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This is sad....comment from one of the good guys in all this..owner Ron Burkle. Wish he was OUR owner.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=647180

Ron Burkle, Co-Owner, Pittsburgh Penguins

"We were therefore surprised when the Fehrs made a unilateral and "non-negotiable" decision - which is their right, to end the player/owner process that has moved us farther in two days than we have moved at any time in the past months."

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12-06-2012, 09:25 PM
  #487
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
At the end of the day, while franchises are failing, 700 NHL players are being asked to split 50% of a $3.3 billion (and growing) pie to play a game they took up because it was so much fun. They are also being asked to limit their guaranteed contracts to 5 years and abide by the terms of the labour agreement for 10 years.

Somehow they have found it within themselves to refuse.

It's like throwing away a winning lottery ticket because you have to pay tax on it.
I agree, the players are being greedy as well (although IMO, it's more like Fehr and a minority group of hardliners) but what i find funny is that the owners are so intent on minimizing term yet they were the ones finding loopholes in the CBA that they fought so hard to obtain by signing these guys (Dipietro, Kovalchuk, Hossa, Luongo etc.) to ridiculous cap circumventing contracts. The players are being fools but the owners need to be saved from themselves. They will find a way to spend out of control again and they'll be in the same position again when the next CBA expires.

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12-06-2012, 09:26 PM
  #488
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Originally Posted by stratedge View Post
Movie industry.

Music industry.

Art industry.

Basically any industry where the "employees" are more important than "employers", as you perceive their roles. Generally employees are the easiest to replace, but in some case it's the "employers" that are. You can't look at everything in as simple terms as the guy collecting the money from the customer is the most important guy in the equation. Sometimes, they're just the middle man. And that's what the owners are in the NHL, the middle men between us and the players, who really matter.

And remember, a players union is nothing like a regular union. A regular union helps the employees. A players union, these days, helps the league. That's why the players are threatening desertification... because the players know they'll gain more in raw money with an open market, than they'll lose by not having a pension or a say in how the league operates (which they barely have now anyway).
And the players have the money to build and maintain the venues? To advertise the game/grow the game by various methods? To provide travel, lodging, etc? The owners aren't getting their fair shake in your explanation of their relationship IMO.

Yeah that'll end well, players making more, having no pensions and 50-60% of them will end up broke because they can't manage their money/live like rock stars. If that happens and they all become FA's they can all **** themselves and I'll never waste another second of my time on the NHL.

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12-06-2012, 09:26 PM
  #489
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
At the end of the day the owners, of who the majority have never run their club with any eye towards their bottom line, are asking players to swallow a loss of significant bargaining power which will carry foward on to every other CBA signed in the future.

And are being asked to do so after agreeing to take a 12.5% pay cut in an industry that hasn't seen a decline in revenues ever.

It's like being called into your bosses office after completeing 125% of target, getting kicked in the junk by him and then having to spend the next 10 hours negotiating either one punch or two in the face before signing on to your job for next year.
If that 12% pay cut reduced my annual salary from $2.35 million to $2.06 million and I couldn't get a like paying position anywhere else in the world, I'd shake his hand after he kicked me in the junk. The magnitude of the base matters.

In the real world, people face rollbacks all the time.

Everyone in my office took a 10% rollback on much much less than $2.35 million annual salaries when I was articling in 2008.

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12-06-2012, 09:27 PM
  #490
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
That's what it'll take. In theory if the depth guys outnumber the stars (and they do) they need to speak the **** up and say that they can't afford to not be playing and force a vote and out vote the guys that can afford to wait. The sad thing is that a number of the depth guys will already be passed over when hockey returns. IMO Fehr didn't put it to a vote because he feels it would've been accepted and his agenda couldn't be completed.
Who the #$#$ cares about the "depth" players.

Why do I keep hearing this argument, do you turn on the TV to watch Teddy Peckham??

The fact is nobody made out better in the last CBA than the 4th liners and 7th dbags.

Does anyone think in an open market Peckham makes $1,000,000? Anyone

Basically the NHL CBA caps the market retuen for the stars, AKA the people we pay to watch, to subsidize the bottom of the lineup.

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12-06-2012, 09:29 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The owners have all the leverage no argument but if you are a player why agree to a new CBA today?

The previous poster said they were going to get "slaughtered". This is just plain wrong, from an objective point of view its hard to see why the owner best deal would be on the table right now.

Waiting is the best strategy for the NHLPA
Exept, and I am not a expert, but it seems to be a common statement that in 04/05 the best offer was on the table in Novemeber. So, reality is there is a good chance the players just walked away from the best offer.

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12-06-2012, 09:29 PM
  #492
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
If that 12% pay cut reduced my annual salary from $2.35 million to $2.06 million and I couldn't get a like paying position anywhere else in the world, I'd shake as hand after he kicked me in the junk.

In the real world, people face rollbacks all the time.

Everyone in my office took a 10% rollback on much much less than $2.35 million when I was articling in 2008.
Obviously you have grade 4 understanding of market value.

Nothing you or I will ever do will generate the revenue the NHL players do with their elite talents.

The idea they should accept a roll back is ridiculous

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12-06-2012, 09:30 PM
  #493
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Originally Posted by stratedge View Post
Movie industry.

Music industry.

Art industry.

Basically any industry where the "employees" are more important than "employers", as you perceive their roles. Generally employees are the easiest to replace, but in some case it's the "employers" that are. You can't look at everything in as simple terms as the guy collecting the money from the customer is the most important guy in the equation. Sometimes, they're just the middle man. And that's what the owners are in the NHL, the middle men between us and the players, who really matter.

And remember, a players union is nothing like a regular union. A regular union helps the employees. A players union, these days, helps the league. That's why the players are threatening desertification... because the players know they'll gain more in raw money with an open market, than they'll lose by not having a pension or a say in how the league operates (which they barely have now anyway).
You're listing other business models that make tons of money that is not directly tied to their main revenue stream.

Production companies, leagues likem the NFL, music firms, etc. all make tons of money on their main product, but they rake in the money on TV, advertising and other revenue streams as well.

The NHL simply makes too much of their money on hockey related revenue, their TV deal is well below average, and they do not make enough money anywhere else.

With that being the case it makes it nearly impossible to pay the players over 50% of revenue and still be successfull long-term.

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12-06-2012, 09:30 PM
  #494
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Never mind


Last edited by GreatKeith: 12-06-2012 at 09:32 PM. Reason: Changed my mind, he's not worth arguing with.
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12-06-2012, 09:31 PM
  #495
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The owners have all the leverage no argument but if you are a player why agree to a new CBA today?

The previous poster said they were going to get "slaughtered". This is just plain wrong, from an objective point of view its hard to see why the owner best deal would be on the table right now.

Waiting is the best strategy for the NHLPA

Wait for what, the season to be cancelled? They've already lost paychecks for 22 games for sure. A very, very dangerous game to be played by them, considering that precedent has already been set in 2004 with an entire season lost. If that happens, I have a feeling they're going to lose a lot more than one seasons worth of wages. As you've said, the owners have the leverage. They have other businesses that they can rely on and can wait this out. Can the typical 3rd and 4th line sluggers wait it out too?

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12-06-2012, 09:31 PM
  #496
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Originally Posted by worraps View Post
If that 12% pay cut reduced my annual salary from $2.35 million to $2.06 million and I couldn't get a like paying position anywhere else in the world, I'd shake as hand after he kicked me in the junk.

In the real world, people face rollbacks all the time.

Everyone in my office took a 10% rollback on much much less than $2.35 million when I was articling in 2008.
Bingo, yet they were going to get the remainder back in escrow anyway. Poor ********

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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
Who the #$#$ cares about the "depth" players.

Why do I keep hearing this argument, do you turn on the TV to watch Teddy Peckham??

The fact is nobody made out better in the last CBA than the 4th liners and 7th dbags.

Does anyone think in an open market Peckham makes $1,000,000? Anyone

Basically the NHL CBA caps the market retuen for the stars, AKA the people we pay to watch, to subsidize the bottom of the lineup.
Who cares about them? That's like saying "who cares about the middle and low classed"? Just because they aren't as gifted as the others doesn't mean that they don't count, their vote should count every bit as much as Crosby's. Their window of opportunity is much smaller, I feel for them in this case far more than I do the superstars.

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12-06-2012, 09:32 PM
  #497
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No one is forcing the players to accept anything at all. They can go get another job whenever they feel like it. Tim Horton's is always hiring.

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12-06-2012, 09:33 PM
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The owners have all the leverage no argument but if you are a player why agree to a new CBA today?

The previous poster said they were going to get "slaughtered". This is just plain wrong, from an objective point of view its hard to see why the owner best deal would be on the table right now.

Waiting is the best strategy for the NHLPA
Well, IMO the players never really "lose". They will accept a deal that appears owner friendly, but the players will get paid regardless if history is any guide.

Waiting may be the best strategy from the players, but with that plan comes the risk the owners walk and they miss another year. And if that happens the players may end up taking a deal worse than what is on th table now.

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12-06-2012, 09:33 PM
  #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
The owners have all the leverage no argument but if you are a player why agree to a new CBA today?

The previous poster said they were going to get "slaughtered". This is just plain wrong, from an objective point of view its hard to see why the owner best deal would be on the table right now.

Waiting is the best strategy for the NHLPA
The owners have almost all the leverage in this.

Why would they improve the deal on the table as time goes on?

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12-06-2012, 09:34 PM
  #500
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
Who the #$#$ cares about the "depth" players.

Why do I keep hearing this argument, do you turn on the TV to watch Teddy Peckham??

The fact is nobody made out better in the last CBA than the 4th liners and 7th dbags.

Does anyone think in an open market Peckham makes $1,000,000? Anyone

Basically the NHL CBA caps the market retuen for the stars, AKA the people we pay to watch, to subsidize the bottom of the lineup.

I think the NHL union should care about them, since they likely comprise more of a majority than the so-called higher priced stars like Crosby or Ovechkin, or fools that are payed like stars (Horcoff)

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