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Lockout Thread #3: The Rollercoaster Continues...

View Poll Results: When will the lockout end?
December 15-31st,2012 6 19.35%
January 2013 13 41.94%
September 2013 6 19.35%
October 2013-December 2013 2 6.45%
January 2014 0 0%
September 2014 0 0%
October 2014-January 2015 0 0%
NHL is gone forever 4 12.90%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-07-2012, 02:56 PM
  #701
HotToddy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
So you are in favour of star players being groomed by small market teams and then bought by the large markets once they are relevant?
No

And I think you can make a fair argument about competitve balance in the MLB

My argument is against fans who are so aghast that players would A) hire and listen to Fehr B) not want to sign an NFL type deal C) want to wait for a better deal to be presented

Almost everything the owners and players have done in this negotiations makes perfect sense when you consider what's being negotiated and the ecomomics of the deals on the table

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12-07-2012, 02:57 PM
  #702
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Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
Saying they were "close" was a pathetic attempt by Fehr to desperately try to come out as the good guy in all this. He knows dammed well how the meeting ended (not good) and this way, he felt he could then come out later and paint the league as the bad guys for reneging on his so-called "close to a deal" statement. This is what infuriated Bettman and Daly so much, and it's now transparent to even the casual observer as to what tactic Fehr chose to use. The sign of a desperate man, trying to save face, IMO.

...and the players still think theyre the victims by giving up so much...if the season is indeed lost at this point it will really be pathetic.

I simply can not fathom why a player thinks they are entitled to more than a 50% share in HRR.

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12-07-2012, 02:57 PM
  #703
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Originally Posted by Freudian slips View Post
One thng I think the NHL could do is raise the minimum salary as a move toward the players, plus it would affect the vast majority of the NHLPA.

Would that make sense?
No

Why as a fan do I want the worst players taking up more of a teams cap space??

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12-07-2012, 02:59 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
No

Why as a fan do I want the worst players taking up more of a teams cap space??

as opposed to Horcoff?

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12-07-2012, 03:00 PM
  #705
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A comment someone made from another thread.

Quote:
There's a difference between disagreeing with the offers you've been given, even very strongly voicing your disapproval and saying things like Upshall has been saying.

You're a professional hockey player, not a worker at meatpacking plant in an Upton Sinclair novel.

You can voice your displeasure without pretending you're some crusader for the proletariat that is the players against the bourgeoisie owners, and without insulting anyone who actually has had to fight and scrap for fair and safe work conditions and a livable wage.

It's just a total lack of perspective.

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12-07-2012, 03:01 PM
  #706
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This idea of owner concessions is hilarious to me.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:09 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by President Van Buren View Post
A comment someone made from another thread.
Problem is people are insulted every time a player opens his mouth no matter what he says.

What exactly can a player say that wouldn't offend regular people?

People need to realize that 20% is 20%. Sure a player might never need that 2mil he's going to lose by not signing a CBA, but you think Bill Gates or Donald Trumph would let 2mil go without a fight?

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12-07-2012, 03:12 PM
  #708
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Problem is people are insulted every time a player opens his mouth no matter what he says.

What exactly can a player say that wouldn't offend regular people?

People need to realize that 20% is 20%. Sure a player might never need that 2mil he's going to lose by not signing a CBA, but you think Bill Gates or Donald Trumph would let 2mil go without a fight?
Bill Gates gives a **** load away all the time. He's given up more money that you can imagine. He's certainly proven that he will walk away from money.

Donald Trump is a vulture capitalist that has a summer home at bankruptcy court. He's almost as hated for his business practices as he is for his political beliefs.

I understand why they fight, but I don't want to hear righteous indignation or concern about securing livelihoods from them.

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12-07-2012, 03:16 PM
  #709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
No

And I think you can make a fair argument about competitve balance in the MLB

My argument is against fans who are so aghast that players would A) hire and listen to Fehr B) not want to sign an NFL type deal C) want to wait for a better deal to be presented

Almost everything the owners and players have done in this negotiations makes perfect sense when you consider what's being negotiated and the ecomomics of the deals on the table

Competetive balance in MLB? Can you please expand on this for me? Other than the fluke years once in a blue moon put forward by teams like Minnesota, Florida, Tampa or Oakland, I'd be interested to know what competitive balance there is.

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12-07-2012, 03:18 PM
  #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SK13 View Post
Bill Gates gives a **** load away all the time. He's given up more money that you can imagine. He's certainly proven that he will walk away from money.

Donald Trump is a vulture capitalist that has a summer home at bankruptcy court. He's almost as hated for his business practices as he is for his political beliefs.

I understand why they fight, but I don't want to hear righteous indignation or concern about securing livelihoods from them.
Sure Gates gives it away, but it's on his own terms.

No one is really forcing you to read what they say on twitter either.

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12-07-2012, 03:20 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
Competetive balance in MLB? Can you please expand on this for me? Other than the fluke years once in a blue moon put forward by teams like Minnesota, Florida, Tampa or Oakland, I'd be interested to know what competitive balance there is.
Here is a decent chart on competitive balance

http://www.82games.com/balance.htm

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12-07-2012, 03:21 PM
  #712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Problem is people are insulted every time a player opens his mouth no matter what he says.

What exactly can a player say that wouldn't offend regular people?

People need to realize that 20% is 20%. Sure a player might never need that 2mil he's going to lose by not signing a CBA, but you think Bill Gates or Donald Trumph would let 2mil go without a fight?

The player that opens his mouth is really the one that should be insulted by what comes out of it.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:23 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by dustrock View Post
This idea of owner concessions is hilarious to me.
I agree

and to be honest I think Owners and the NHL have been masterful in their negotiating tactics.

There big concessions thus far

- allowing the players a 12.5% paycut instead of 26.4% cut

- allowing players to keep a portion of the contracts the owners signed in good faith prior to the CBA expiry

The only question in this fight is how much the owners win

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:26 PM
  #714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
I agree

and to be honest I think Owners and the NHL have been masterful in their negotiating tactics.

There big concessions thus far

- allowing the players a 12.5% paycut instead of 26.4% cut

- allowing players to keep a portion of the contracts the owners signed in good faith prior to the CBA expiry

The only question in this fight is how much the owners win
For 6 years the owners compete against each other and the players use that to their advantage. When the CBA expires every player should be aware that this will come to an end. There is no good faith, the players get as much as they can, now the owners can collude and do the same. There is nothing unfair about what the owners are doing. The sad part is way to many owners are losing money or breaking even. If not the case, we would be watching hockey right now.

ps. you seem to understand ecnomics well, but what amazes me is you seem to be lost on a simple point. A free market is an amazing thing. If there were 30 companies and 28 couldn't compete with the other 2 and went out of business fine. The problem is in the NHL you need 30 businesses. It just simply is the way it is structured. Its not being anti market, it is just the reality of this market.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:33 PM
  #715
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Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
Here is a decent chart on competitive balance

http://www.82games.com/balance.htm
In the capped NFL, a team in a city (Green Bay) with a population of about 350,000 has recently won the championship, can attract many upper end FA's and continues to be a force. Show me a small market team in MLB that has won a championship the last 10 years, attracts high end FA's and is a force year after year after year.

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12-07-2012, 03:36 PM
  #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
Problem is people are insulted every time a player opens his mouth no matter what he says.

What exactly can a player say that wouldn't offend regular people?

People need to realize that 20% is 20%. Sure a player might never need that 2mil he's going to lose by not signing a CBA, but you think Bill Gates or Donald Trumph would let 2mil go without a fight?
The players are running a line of the downtrodden and abused in the face of evil because someone asked them to make a few hundred thousand less per year on their multi-million dollar contracts. That type of position will always be inherently offensive to the vast majority of people out there.

Add in the fact that they've already stated they are mercenaries and couldn't care less about the game aside from the paychecks, you've got yourself a recipe for making millionaires less sympathetic than billionaires.

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12-07-2012, 03:36 PM
  #717
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Yeah how will the players ever survive with a 50-50 split?

I mean I hear those NBA, NFL, and MLB players have it tough getting only 50% of their league revenues.

Bettman is a joke, the NHL is a push over. They've caved on every single issue and come back to Fehr every single time with an even better offer than the last one.

Not surprising, this is the same league that had no salary cap for 15 years (something that just about killed the Oilers), and then just to get a cap the owners had to blow an entire season and got stuck with a 43% split of revenue

What a joke. It totally is the parent that has to "negotiate" with their kids just to get them to go to bed at 12 AM and give concessions to have them go to school like every other kid.

The players had no freaking business taking home 57% of revenue in the first place, that was ridiculous, they're the kid that gets to eat candy for dinner because they say so. Gimme a break.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:38 PM
  #718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
In the capped NFL, a team in a city (Green Bay) with a population of about 350,000 has recently won the championship, can attract many upper end FA's and continues to be a force. Show me a small market team in MLB that has won a championship the last 10 years, attracts high end FA's and is a force year after year after year.

^^^ this


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12-07-2012, 03:51 PM
  #719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotToddy View Post
I agree

and to be honest I think Owners and the NHL have been masterful in their negotiating tactics.

There big concessions thus far

- allowing the players a 12.5% paycut instead of 26.4% cut

- allowing players to keep a portion of the contracts the owners signed in good faith prior to the CBA expiry

The only question in this fight is how much the owners win
Sounds very similar to the BS the players were spewing about losing the previous CBA negotiations. The same CBA that they would have voted 100% in favor of extending if given the option.

If you're going to compare this CBA negotiation to the last CBA you have to compare it to all previous CBAs.

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:59 PM
  #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoneman89 View Post
In the capped NFL, a team in a city (Green Bay) with a population of about 350,000 has recently won the championship, can attract many upper end FA's and continues to be a force. Show me a small market team in MLB that has won a championship the last 10 years, attracts high end FA's and is a force year after year after year.
The problem with this argument is that 1) Green Bay receives a significant portion of their revenues from the NFL's TV deal, and 2) because the majority of their home games are played on Sunday over 8+ weeks a lot of people will travel long distances across Wisconsin to attend games, lessening the importance of how many people actually live in and near Green Bay. That being said, I agree that the NFL salary cap is a key component of the competitive balance of the NFL.

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12-07-2012, 04:01 PM
  #721
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Originally Posted by monkeywrench View Post
I say if we get a home game this year we start a CATTLE chant.
To show our love to the players!
Are the fans booing the players to start the game? No they are moooing them!!

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Old
12-07-2012, 04:05 PM
  #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
The problem with this argument is that 1) Green Bay receives a significant portion of their revenues from the NFL's TV deal, and 2) because the majority of their home games are played on Sunday over 8+ weeks a lot of people will travel long distances across Wisconsin to attend games, lessening the importance of how many people actually live in and near Green Bay. That being said, I agree that the NFL salary cap is a key component of the competitive balance of the NFL.
Look at a team like Edmonton though. Where season ticket holders live as far away as Fort Chip. Where they need to actually take a plane to get to the game when they go. 41 games per season, and there is always someone sitting in those seats.

Same with a business my mom used to work for, they had season tickets as well, and every game, someone from Fort Mac was in those seats, and the people who had the seats next to those who I got to know fairly well, were from Red Deer. Half the time they couldn't even get there until the second period because of work, but they still showed up for almost every game.

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12-07-2012, 04:05 PM
  #723
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The problem with trying to compare the NHL to the NFL and MLB is that it's the NHL you are talking about. A sport that draw less tv viewers than bowling and tractor pulls in large portions of the USA.

If they were on a farm the NFL players would be the cattle, NBA players the horses, MLB players the sheep, and NHL players would be the hens.

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12-07-2012, 04:06 PM
  #724
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Are the fans booing the players to start the game? No they are moooing them!!
Bring the good ol' fashioned Cow Bells to the games.

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12-07-2012, 04:15 PM
  #725
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Bring the good ol' fashioned Cow Bells to the games.

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