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Meet the worst starting QB in the league, Christian Ponder

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Old
12-02-2012, 09:16 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Ok

Kyle Orton who is a game manager type (What the Vikes need Ponder to be)

Had a WR core of

Devin Hester , Rashied Davis , Brandon Lloyd (When he sucked) and Marty Booker (When he was old and brokeN) in 2008

Put forth the type of year the Vikes would wish from Ponder right now
Orton and Ponder are pretty similar I think. Give them just one halfway decent guy to throw to and a bunch of trash, a great defense and great back, they might manage the game well and get your team either in or very close to the playoffs. Give them better who knows, but they'll rarely carry your team to a win.

Their stats will probably be similar too.

Orton 15 games 58%, 3000 yards, 18 TD, 12 INT
Ponder 12 games 62%, 2305 yards, 14 TD, 11 INT

I just don't think that makes him the worst QB in the league, but average instead. If the Vikings would ever try to get a good #2 WR things would maybe be different.

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12-02-2012, 09:43 PM
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Ryan Lindley is one of the worst QBs I have seen in a while, it was like Whisenhunt didn't want to win the game. The only reason why they lost was because Lindley couldn't complete any pass for over 5 yards

Hate to say it Whisenhunt deserves to get fired just based on today's game and his stubborness

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12-02-2012, 09:47 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HajdukSplit View Post
Ryan Lindley is one of the worst QBs I have seen in a while, it was like Whisenhunt didn't want to win the game. The only reason why they lost was because Lindley couldn't complete any pass for over 5 yards

Hate to say it Whisenhunt deserves to get fired just based on today's game and his stubborness
What exactly was Arizona coach supposed to do?

Run game sucked and he has no other QB's that he can legit put in there

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12-02-2012, 09:50 PM
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Originally Posted by HajdukSplit View Post
Ryan Lindley is one of the worst QBs I have seen in a while, it was like Whisenhunt didn't want to win the game. The only reason why they lost was because Lindley couldn't complete any pass for over 5 yards

Hate to say it Whisenhunt deserves to get fired just based on today's game and his stubborness
Ya sure you aren't talking about Ponder.

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12-02-2012, 10:25 PM
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I really really wanted to give him a chance/benefit of the doubt and not label him a bust immediately given that they reached for him but he's done nothing to make me hold out hope anymore.

He's stinks. He's 90% of the reason they lost today.

Our WR's get zero separation but I don't think that's an excuse no more. He gets happy feet and just can't make NFL throws.

That being said we have nothing better behind him, just let him finish out the year and move on. We're playing with house money anyway we've already exceeded/met expectations by winning 6 games.

Webb is not the answer either. He can run and give defense's fits out of the bullpen, so to speak, but he's not a good passer either. Although he could probably make those deep throws Ponder can't.

As for the title of the thread. I don't know if he's worse than Sanchez, Cassel/Quinn or the trio in Arizona.

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12-02-2012, 11:13 PM
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Seen plenty of Vikings games
That I doubt.

Let me repeat this until it sinks in: FOUR. FOUR COMPLETIONS OF OVER 20 YARDS.

Who he is throwing to is irrelevant when the arching rainbow of a throw is consistently 5-10 yards behind the receiver. His arm is one of the weakest in the NFL. If not the weakest. It was the knock on him coming out of school, and has proven to be true.

Ponder's poor range limits him to a dink-and-dunk offense. Only his decision making is too suspect... he can't protect the ball. Case in point: two red zone INTs today. The 1st two of the season by Morgan, so it wasn't like he was taken advantage of by a ballhawk.

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12-02-2012, 11:20 PM
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Talent sure, good receiver no. Career high is 26 catches. Right now he's their third receiver in a group where nobody demands extra attention over the top or double coverage. That has disaster written all over it for any QB. Plus they know none of these guys can run past coverage or break a tackle. It is a catastrophic scenario for their offense.

Anyway, to the guy who said the Vikings would have won with an average QB, well that's what Ponder is, an average QB. He made one really huge screwup in the red zone, but that's par for the course for any young QB. When you expect a QB to make chicken salad out of crap that happens sometimes, I've seen it before. And I have seen way worse QB's than Ponder play for my team.
On what planet is Ponder an average QB?

More to a point, which WR needs to beat double coverage? In case you hadn't noticed, Peterson is kinda demanding some attention. Like 8-in-the-box.

Teams are going all-in run because the WRs (without Harvin) can't get separation short and Ponder can't throw deep (again, FOUR.)

I know being a Raiders fan makes it hard to gauge QBs, and you have indeed had worse than Ponder, but an average QB is indeed expected to be able to make a downfield throw. Tough to build an effective passing game off checkdowns and screens... which are the only throw Ponder can make effectively (just shy of 85% of his completions are within 10 yards of the line).

He is a poor man's Pennington. Only without the awareness and fearlessness. Might have a career as a back-up, but has been a bust as a starter and only getting worse.

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12-02-2012, 11:22 PM
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He's maybe not the worst QB, but he's certainly in the conversation.

Arm strength definitely isn't the be all and end all of QBing, but there gets to be point where you can't really function as an NFL starter without being able to make certain throws. Ponder strikes me as being pretty much in Danny Wuerffel and Detmer brothers territory in terms of arm strength.

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12-02-2012, 11:27 PM
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You can doubt it all you want, and you can act like I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have watched them plenty (I wish I haven't). Their receivers limit them to a dink and dunk offense, none of them are able to run a quality route over 20 yards. His arm isn't great, that doesn't change the fact that none of his receivers are ever capable of getting open.

Another fault in your argument is that he protects the ball at the rate of an average QB, which is all he is, yet you treat him like a turnover machine. And you seem to expect him to single-handedly charge past the Bears and Packers without his only decent receiver which is ludicrous. The team was expected to be very poor, they unexpectedly won some games which put them in a better position, yet he can't seal the deal. That is totally normal young QB play. The Vikings are a ways off from playoff contention, your ire is pointed in the wrong direction.

If you want the Vikings to change QB again good luck, they can go pick up Rivers or waste a pick on a terrible QB (because that's all there is outside of the top two), see how that works. Rivers hasn't had any receivers to throw at this season either and look how things have turned out for him. If you think the Vikings receivers are good enough to support a better QB I don't know what to tell you. They're trash. They can't get separation short nor deep and everyone knows it. Their best receiver is not a deep threat, so even he can't help Ponder in this regard. As such I find it difficult to jump to conclusions when judging a second year QB.

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12-02-2012, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
Orton and Ponder are pretty similar I think. Give them just one halfway decent guy to throw to and a bunch of trash, a great defense and great back, they might manage the game well and get your team either in or very close to the playoffs. Give them better who knows, but they'll rarely carry your team to a win.

Their stats will probably be similar too.

Orton 15 games 58%, 3000 yards, 18 TD, 12 INT
Ponder 12 games 62%, 2305 yards, 14 TD, 11 INT

I just don't think that makes him the worst QB in the league, but average instead. If the Vikings would ever try to get a good #2 WR things would maybe be different.
You should look at the game logs. The Ponder of the 1st 6 games is not the Ponder of the last 6 games.

First six games, 8 TDs, 4 INTs. 1 game with a QB rating under 75. Vikes a surprising 4-2. 1 game under 198 yards passing.

Last six games, 6 TDs, 7 INTs (multiple ones in the red zone at that). 1 game with a QB rating over 75. Vikes 2-4. 2 game over 198 yards passing (with 2 games under 70).

Ponder is regressing. Peterson is having an MVP-caliber season, even a slightly below average QB with put us in a WC spot. We are in free-fall as Ponder has shat the bed ever since the Washington game (Detroit game the lone exception).

Orton... a career journeyman/back-up may be his ceiling.

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12-02-2012, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
You can doubt it all you want, and you can act like I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have watched them plenty (I wish I haven't). Their receivers limit them to a dink and dunk offense, none of them are able to run a quality route over 20 yards. His arm isn't great, that doesn't change the fact that none of his receivers are ever capable of getting open.

Another fault in your argument is that he protects the ball at the rate of an average QB, which is all he is, yet you treat him like a turnover machine. And you seem to expect him to single-handedly charge past the Bears and Packers without his only decent receiver which is ludicrous. The team was expected to be very poor, they unexpectedly won some games which put them in a better position, yet he can't seal the deal. That is totally normal young QB play. The Vikings are a ways off from playoff contention, your ire is pointed in the wrong direction.

If you want the Vikings to change QB again good luck, they can go pick up Rivers or waste a pick on a terrible QB (because that's all there is outside of the top two), see how that works. Rivers hasn't had any receivers to throw at this season either and look how things have turned out for him. If you think the Vikings receivers are good enough to support a better QB I don't know what to tell you. They're trash. They can't get separation short nor deep and everyone knows it. Their best receiver is not a deep threat, so even he can't help Ponder in this regard. As such I find it difficult to jump to conclusions when judging a second year QB.
Ponder can finish out the year then dump him. Vikes will be going after Alex Smith come the off season. Mark my words.

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12-02-2012, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
You can doubt it all you want, and you can act like I don't know what I'm talking about, but I have watched them plenty (I wish I haven't). Their receivers limit them to a dink and dunk offense, none of them are able to run a quality route over 20 yards. His arm isn't great, that doesn't change the fact that none of his receivers are ever capable of getting open.

Another fault in your argument is that he protects the ball at the rate of an average QB, which is all he is, yet you treat him like a turnover machine. And you seem to expect him to single-handedly charge past the Bears and Packers without his only decent receiver which is ludicrous. The team was expected to be very poor, they unexpectedly won some games which put them in a better position, yet he can't seal the deal. That is totally normal young QB play. The Vikings are a ways off from playoff contention, your ire is pointed in the wrong direction.

If you want the Vikings to change QB again good luck, they can go pick up Rivers or waste a pick on a terrible QB (because that's all there is outside of the top two), see how that works. Rivers hasn't had any receivers to throw at this season either and look how things have turned out for him. If you think the Vikings receivers are good enough to support a better QB I don't know what to tell you. They're trash. They can't get separation short nor deep and everyone knows it. Their best receiver is not a deep threat, so even he can't help Ponder in this regard. As such I find it difficult to jump to conclusions when judging a second year QB.
60.9

That is Ponder's average QB rating over the last 6 games. Take out the great game against Detroit and it dips below 50. For those keeping score at home, that is below JaMarcus Russell's career average.

You think that is NFL average?

Ponder isn't a JaMarcus caliber bust, but he is absolutely proving to be a Brady Quinn level one.

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12-02-2012, 11:47 PM
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This.

Unlike all the other QBs mentioned, none of them are facing 8-man fronts EVERY SINGLE DOWN.

Despite facing 1-on-1 coverage and 8-men in the box, Ponder has completed FOUR passes where he threw the ball more than 20 yards. Not this game, all season. That is not a typo, Ponder has connected only FOUR times when airing the ball out. 192 of his 228 passes (84%) are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

Ponder is definately in the running for worst QB in the league. Undeniably the weakest arm among starters and suspect decision making putting him in the running. If not for Peterson and Harvin's/Rudolph's YACs, he would look even worse.
Cassel/Quinn are in a similar situation. Not quite as tilted as The AP, but any offence the Chiefs get comes from Charles, and opposing defences know it.

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12-02-2012, 11:52 PM
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60.9

That is Ponder's average QB rating over the last 6 games. Take out the great game against Detroit and it dips below 50. For those keeping score at home, that is below JaMarcus Russell's career average.

You think that is NFL average?

Ponder isn't a JaMarcus caliber bust, but he is absolutely proving to be a Brady Quinn level one.
Quote:
60.9

That is Ponder's average QB rating over the last 6 games. Take out the great game against Detroit and it dips below 50. For those keeping score at home, that is below JaMarcus Russell's career average.

You think that is NFL average?

Ponder isn't a JaMarcus caliber bust, but he is absolutely proving to be a Brady Quinn level one.
Looking at the game logs and judging him by that wouldn't make any sense, I would rather judge him by what I saw. The first eight games he had a really good receiver, one of the best in the league. The last four he didn't. This is normal young QB behavior, on the road in Chicago and Green Bay, losses are what should be expected. Especially with Minnesota's current receiving situation.

I get that the Vikings would have a shot at the playoffs with a better QB, but that's not what I was trying to say in the first place. I said they weren't very good, he won more games than should have been expected of the Vikings at the start of this season (and I still think to some degree they are overperforming based on what's on their roster), and that he's average. Considering it's really difficult to get QB upgrades in this league, and with the draft class being what it is, the Vikings might as well roll with what they have and try to upgrade at the receiver position. Even a possible cut like Rivers wouldn't be able to do the job well for them. And a guy like Alex Smith has no greater arm strength than Ponder so I don't get that at all.

As such I find it way too soon to be this definitive. If you know that a team has no receivers capable of catching the ball, getting open and breaking tackles, of course you're going to pack the box on a team, and that team is going to struggle badly. Once Harvin went down so did any chance for the Vikings to keep winning.

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12-02-2012, 11:52 PM
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Cassel/Quinn are in a similar situation. Not quite as tilted as The AP, but any offence the Chiefs get comes from Charles, and opposing defences know it.
Peterson became something like the 4th back in NFL history to post a 200 yard rushing game. And lose.

Ponder, Quinn and Cassels are in the same class of QB. Back-ups. Ponder may be able to be effective, but only in a dink-and-dunk system if propped up by more talented players. Just like Cassels was able to be effective when propped up in New England.

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12-02-2012, 11:56 PM
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Peterson became something like the 4th back in NFL history to post a 200 yard rushing game. And lose.

Ponder, Quinn and Cassels are in the same class of QB. Back-ups. Ponder may be able to be effective, but only in a dink-and-dunk system if propped up by more talented players. Just like Cassels was able to be effective when propped up in New England.
Cassel also had one good season in KC. It wasn't strictly the New England system. Cassel wasn't propped up by more talented players in 2010 when he made the pro-bowl, he just forgot which team to throw the ball too.

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12-02-2012, 11:56 PM
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Looking at the game logs and judging him by that wouldn't make any sense, I would rather judge him by what I saw. The first eight games he had a really good receiver, one of the best in the league. The last four he didn't. This is normal young QB behavior, on the road in Chicago and Green Bay, losses are what should be expected. Especially with Minnesota's current receiving situation.

I get that the Vikings would have a shot at the playoffs with a better QB, but that's not what I was trying to say in the first place. I said they weren't very good, he won more games than should have been expected of the Vikings at the start of this season (and I still think to some degree they are overperforming based on what's on their roster), and that he's average. Considering it's really difficult to get QB upgrades in this league, and with the draft class being what it is, the Vikings might as well roll with what they have and try to upgrade at the receiver position. Even a possible cut like Rivers wouldn't be able to do the job well for them. And a guy like Alex Smith has no greater arm strength than Ponder so I don't get that at all.

As such I find it way too soon to be this definitive. If you know that a team has no receivers capable of catching the ball, getting open and breaking tackles, of course you're going to pack the box on a team, and that team is going to struggle badly. Once Harvin went down so did any chance for the Vikings to keep winning.
If you think Ponder is in the same class of arm strength as Smith, then I KNOW you have not seen many (any?) Vikings games. FOUR. FOUR passes of >20 yards.

More to a point, if you don't think Rivers or Smith would have done better than Ponder over the past six games... well... I don't think we have much more to discuss then.

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12-03-2012, 12:01 AM
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Smith and Rivers are both much better than Ponder.

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12-03-2012, 12:06 AM
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If you think Ponder is in the same class of arm strength as Smith, then I KNOW you have not seen many (any?) Vikings games. FOUR. FOUR passes of >20 yards.

More to a point, if you don't think Rivers or Smith would have done better than Ponder over the past six games... well... I don't think we have much more to discuss then.
You are continuing to post a stat that correlates to having bad receivers. Is a guy supposed to throw the ball to covered targets who are 20 yards downfield? I would expect a QB with Randy Moss, Mario Manningham, Vernon Davis, Michael Crabtree, Kyle Williams to get the ball downfield all the time.

Take a look at what Rivers has done all season with no receivers, a good TE and back, then get back to me. They're 4-8. Look what Alex Smith did for years in Frisco. He was nearly ran out of the league. The Vikings are not going to be a better team changing QB once again and neglecting their horrible receiving corps. This is Ponder's first full season, lest we forget they tried to trade for a QB again in 2011 and traded for a washed up bum. So trading picks for a QB, then drafting another one, and scrapping that project after one full year to get another QB is an acceptable course of action? A new QB every year? Consistency at the QB position is the key to getting a franchise pointed in the right direction.

Of course Rivers and Smith are better than Ponder, if you think the difference is large enough to be a playoff team, you're wrong. They would both struggle heavily with this personnel.

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12-03-2012, 12:26 AM
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Ponder looked good in the first few games but then he's regressed horribly in the past 4 games or so. He played some weak teams (Colts, Jaguars, 49ers, Lions, Titans, Redskins) but the last 4 or so games he's regressed and I think partly that's because Harvin isn't there.

But he did hang 352 yards on the Redskins, 251 yards on Tampa.

He has more yards throwing than Cutler (missed one game) and Wilson (rookie).

He has less interceptions than Cutler and as many touchdowns with worse receivers. He has more touchdowns than Newton.

He has put up some bad games like today, he's put up some good games like against the 49ers.

Now; QBs in the past 5 years have been pretty bad in the 1st round.

2007:
JaMarcus Russell
Brady Quinn
(Busts)

2008:
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
(Good picks)

2009:
Matthew Stafford
Mark Sanchez
Josh Freeman
(Mediocre)

2010:
Sam Bradford
Tim Tebow
(Ick)

2011:
Cam Newton
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Christian Ponder
(Double Ick)

I want to see how Ponder responds to this season. I wouldn't mind taking another QB in this year's draft (though this year the QBs look tremendously bad) and provide better competition. Now I think Ponder might have been placed in a better situation with better coaching but I still think he could end up like Alex Smith in someways and hopefully not like Joey Harrington.

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12-03-2012, 12:30 AM
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Did you just call the 49ers a weak team!?

LOL

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12-03-2012, 12:34 AM
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Did you just call the 49ers a weak team!?

LOL
3rd game in. All teams are questionable. 49ers now look legit but at the time, they only played 2 games.

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12-03-2012, 12:47 AM
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3rd game in. All teams are questionable. 49ers now look legit but at the time, they only played 2 games.
That doesn't make any sense. You are making that statement now implying that they are a weak team, when that can be any further from the truth.

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12-03-2012, 01:10 AM
  #74
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If you think Ponder is in the same class of arm strength as Smith, then I KNOW you have not seen many (any?) Vikings games. FOUR. FOUR passes of >20 yards.

More to a point, if you don't think Rivers or Smith would have done better than Ponder over the past six games... well... I don't think we have much more to discuss then.
I'm not defending Ponder here, and he's deep ball is certainly lacking the few times he attempts to throw one, but WRs have to be open 20 yards down the field for him to complete passes 20 yards down the field.

Our WRs are atrocious.

With that being said Ponder hasn't done anything to show more than his poor-mans Chad Pennington/decent backup draft projections.

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12-03-2012, 01:39 AM
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