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Old
12-19-2012, 01:48 PM
  #851
MartyOwns
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
Because it isn't.

You wrote that these tragedies are happening now because of the "easy" availability of guns. Simply and easily verifiable as false via FBI data.


Both the mass murder rate by firearm and the overall murder rate by firearm are currently at or near all-time lows since the FBI began keeping statistics many decades ago, and that's with the "easy" availability of guns (as you noted).
Quote:
Every day, 85 Americans are shot dead, about 53 of them in suicides. This figure is still lower than 1993's peak in gun deaths (37,666), but has risen significantly since firearm deaths reached a low in 2000 (28,393). The data goes back to 1979.
regardless of trending numbers, those statistics are alarming. and, as this article explains, firearm fatalities are poised to overtake car fatalities via the CDC.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...152632492.html

whether you're pro or anti gun control laws, you have to admit there is a PROBLEM here. you can blame the media or lack of mental healthcare (thanks obamacare! ) which are certainly valid..but guns are part of the problem. trade shows are a part of the problem (a big part). and its an area the NRA has turned a blind eye to.

to saugus' point, the times, they have a changed since the 2nd amendment. if youre clinging to the '2nd amendment' argument, and believe the authors of the constitution were transported to 2012, saw the ramifications of an outdated necessity, under completely different circumstances than they ever could have imagined, they'd probably bust out their white-out and change the language.

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12-19-2012, 01:51 PM
  #852
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
Ke$ha's song 'Die Young' has also been removed from airplay.

So it's ok to ban songs cause you know words don't kill people, people kill people.
i cant argue against a kesha song being banned. but i do recall a similar thing after 9/11, where there was a list of songs radio stations agreed not to play to avoid upsetting people who get upset by words that are in no way related to events. that 'superman' song was one of them, i believe

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12-19-2012, 02:08 PM
  #853
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I am not familiar with Ke$ha's song but I find the irony in 'Pumped up Kicks' being hushed because it's about school shootings and was made to bring awareness to the issue long before the latest incident. This is akin to putting your hands over your ears and closing your eyes and humming.

When exactly is that song "ok" to be played?

Next up: Jeremy's spoken.

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12-19-2012, 02:15 PM
  #854
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
I am not familiar with Ke$ha's song but I find the irony in 'Pumped up Kicks' being hushed because it's about school shootings and was made to bring awareness to the issue long before the latest incident. This is akin to putting your hands over your ears and closing your eyes and humming.

When exactly is that song "ok" to be played?

Next up: Jeremy's spoken.
Did you know that in the first Spiderman, the scene with the American Flag was made to replace Spiderman's introduction to the public which was saving someone in the Twin Towers?

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12-19-2012, 02:38 PM
  #855
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single and attractive? be careful.
Ya, I'm well aware that I should watch for crazy lurking there. But that's ok, I don't mind a little crazy, because I'm a little crazy too.

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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
Because it isn't.

You wrote that these tragedies are happening now because of the "easy" availability of guns. Simply and easily verifiable as false via FBI data.

Both the mass murder rate by firearm and the overall murder rate by firearm are currently at or near all-time lows since the FBI began keeping statistics many decades ago, and that's with the "easy" availability of guns (as you noted).
Except I'm not comparing it to several decades ago in the 20th century, I'm comparing it to the 1780s when the Second Amendment was written. As I'm sure you'll recall, that is the usual justification given for why gun ownership should have fewer restrictions. But the state of society today and the state of society then are not the same, and the state of technology is not the same: you cannot tell me mass murders like this were happening then, it is simply not possible with muskets and single shot pistols, and a smaller and more rural population. That is why it is an outdated argument.

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Originally Posted by selyar View Post
i literally waited over half an hour to hand someone my package.
I swear I had something witty for this when I multiquoted it, but now I've forgotten.

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12-19-2012, 02:45 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
I swear I had something witty for this when I multiquoted it, but now I've forgotten.
hahaha post it later when you remember. i had a feeling that line might generate some response.

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12-19-2012, 02:47 PM
  #857
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
I am not familiar with Ke$ha's song but I find the irony in 'Pumped up Kicks' being hushed because it's about school shootings and was made to bring awareness to the issue long before the latest incident. This is akin to putting your hands over your ears and closing your eyes and humming.

When exactly is that song "ok" to be played?

Next up: Jeremy's spoken.
Wait, do they keep playing Kesha`s song with the lyrics "this place about to blo-o-o-w"? LOL

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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
I swear I had something witty for this when I multiquoted it, but now I've forgotten.
This is a historic moment folks. Saugus was betrayed by his own system.

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12-19-2012, 03:10 PM
  #858
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Originally Posted by Richer's Ghost View Post
So it's ok to ban songs cause you know words don't kill people, people kill people.
Moronic, knee-jerk reaction. And sadly typical of reactionary society.

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Originally Posted by MartyOwns View Post
regardless of trending numbers, those statistics are alarming. and, as this article explains, firearm fatalities are poised to overtake car fatalities via the CDC.
No, they're really not, unless you propose to ban cars, and wherever that source came from was almost certainly an agenda-driven anti-gun author. Why?

You can tell this because it's extremely misleading (and intentionally so) to conflate "gun deaths" with "gun homicide".

Would you rather the suicides all swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills?

The vast majority of gun deaths each year are by suicide, and if you don't add suicide to homicide, you see that there's a much smaller number of gun murders in this country. But that's not the picture the author wants to paint.

Examine it further, and you'd also see that the biggest majority of that much smaller number is actually gang-on-gang violence in cities. This too, is a picture the anti-gun crown doesn't want viewed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
Except I'm not comparing it to several decades ago in the 20th century, I'm comparing it to the 1780s when the Second Amendment was written.
You stated that the ease of access to guns leads to mass murder. Perhaps that wasn't how you meant to phrase it, but I was simply pointing out that that is easy to prove as being false.


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Originally Posted by Saugus View Post
you cannot tell me mass murders like this were happening then, it is simply not possible with muskets and single shot pistols, and a smaller and more rural population.
There are certainly numerous examples of 19th, 18th, 17th etc.. century mass murderers who killed 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, etc.. people.

If you mean mass murderers who killed their victims all in one single flurry like the CT kid as opposed to 1 or 2 or 3 at a time? I suppose that's mostly true (with some notable exceptions), though I'd fail to see much of a point you'd be making. For instance, the worst mass murders in history have used explosives, not guns.

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12-19-2012, 03:19 PM
  #859
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Originally Posted by BenedictGomez View Post
For instance, the worst mass murders in history have used explosives, not guns.
And we'd start seeing them again if psychos can't get their hands on guns

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Old
12-19-2012, 03:31 PM
  #860
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This is my stance: You take guns away, messed up people still exist. They'll just find something else to club you to death with, Gas you out, blow you up. The problem isn't the item, but the people who aren't being dealt with that wrongly use them.

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12-19-2012, 03:34 PM
  #861
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Which is why I always preach, no matter how you deal with the gun issue... you also need to find a way to approach the topic of mental health care.

It's just as important of an issue and it always gets over run when discussing violent crime.

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12-19-2012, 04:31 PM
  #862
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This is my stance: You take guns away, messed up people still exist. They'll just find something else to club you to death with, Gas you out, blow you up. The problem isn't the item, but the people who aren't being dealt with that wrongly use them.
And yet on the same day as the CT shooting, some lunatic in China went into an elementary school and attacked 22 kids with a knife. Guess how many of them died. Zero. Put a gun in his hand and most of them are dead today. How many students at Virginia Tech would have been killed if he was armed with a heavy duty telescoping baton? He might have beat a few people badly and then he would've gotten beaten on ten times worse when he could no longer stop people from 40 feet.

Nobody doubts that there will always be lunatics and criminals, but using that certainty to say, "oh well, they'll always be there, we don't need to change our gun policies" is absurd.


Here are a few things I think need to be done. Note that I'm not anti-gun, I'm pro-stricter regulation.

-ALL guns that do not have a serial should be illegal to own. This includes guns manufactured before 1968 when serials became a requirement. Sorry, antique lovers.
-ALL guns produced starting in 2013 must have an RFID chip, inside an area that cannot be disassembled without ruining the gun. Upset that this will increase the price of guns? Tough ****.
-The process of buying a gun needs to be more restrictive than a background check. Want to buy a gun? You're getting interviewed and we'll also be talking to a few of your acquaintances, similar to the hiring process for federal government employees. Pissed off that you have to wait more than 3 days? Tough ****.
-Remove the loophole allowing people to buy guns unregulated at trade shows. Perhaps establish an entity that specifically regulates gun/trade shows. Find a gun that you REALLY REALLY want but can't find anywhere other than this one trade show? Talk to the retailer and that retailer talks to the government entity, who then starts the background/interview process for the prospective buyer. Don't want to jump through hoops just to get a gun? Tough ****.

But that's just a dream scenario and will never happen so long as the NRA still has legislators by the balls.

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12-19-2012, 04:41 PM
  #863
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Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
And yet on the same day as the CT shooting, some lunatic in China went into an elementary school and attacked 22 kids with a knife. Guess how many of them died. Zero. Put a gun in his hand and most of them are dead today. How many students at Virginia Tech would have been killed if he was armed with a heavy duty telescoping baton? He might have beat a few people badly and then he would've gotten beaten on ten times worse when he could no longer stop people from 40 feet.
How many people die when the VT guy puts a couple homemade bombs in a dormroom or a high school student puts one on a bus?

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12-19-2012, 04:44 PM
  #864
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Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
some lunatic in China went into an elementary school and attacked 22 kids with a knife. Guess how many of them died. Zero.
And just think, all that took was an oppressive, Communist society that's slaughtered thousands for them to have that "safety".

Not that he couldn't have poisoned the kids, etc.....



Quote:
Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
Here are a few things I think need to be done. Note that I'm not anti-gun, I'm pro-stricter regulation.
Of course you are. Why cant people just be honest about this issue? Stigma? Peer pressure? Societal pressure?

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Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
-ALL guns that do not have a serial should be illegal to own. This includes guns manufactured before 1968 when serials became a requirement. Sorry, antique lovers.
This would do what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
-ALL guns produced starting in 2013 must have an RFID chip, inside an area that cannot be disassembled without ruining the gun. Upset that this will increase the price of guns? Tough ****.
This would do what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
-The process of buying a gun needs to be more restrictive than a background check. Want to buy a gun? You're getting interviewed and we'll also be talking to a few of your acquaintances
Well now.

That's uhhh...... that's scary as *******.

I didn't see that one coming.

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12-19-2012, 04:53 PM
  #865
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I don't think too many people are against stricter gun regulations.

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12-19-2012, 05:07 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by yakitate304 View Post
And yet on the same day as the CT shooting, some lunatic in China went into an elementary school and attacked 22 kids with a knife. Guess how many of them died. Zero. Put a gun in his hand and most of them are dead today. How many students at Virginia Tech would have been killed if he was armed with a heavy duty telescoping baton? He might have beat a few people badly and then he would've gotten beaten on ten times worse when he could no longer stop people from 40 feet.

Nobody doubts that there will always be lunatics and criminals, but using that certainty to say, "oh well, they'll always be there, we don't need to change our gun policies" is absurd.


Here are a few things I think need to be done. Note that I'm not anti-gun, I'm pro-stricter regulation.

-ALL guns that do not have a serial should be illegal to own. This includes guns manufactured before 1968 when serials became a requirement. Sorry, antique lovers.
-ALL guns produced starting in 2013 must have an RFID chip, inside an area that cannot be disassembled without ruining the gun. Upset that this will increase the price of guns? Tough ****.
-The process of buying a gun needs to be more restrictive than a background check. Want to buy a gun? You're getting interviewed and we'll also be talking to a few of your acquaintances, similar to the hiring process for federal government employees. Pissed off that you have to wait more than 3 days? Tough ****.
-Remove the loophole allowing people to buy guns unregulated at trade shows. Perhaps establish an entity that specifically regulates gun/trade shows. Find a gun that you REALLY REALLY want but can't find anywhere other than this one trade show? Talk to the retailer and that retailer talks to the government entity, who then starts the background/interview process for the prospective buyer. Don't want to jump through hoops just to get a gun? Tough ****.

But that's just a dream scenario and will never happen so long as the NRA still has legislators by the balls.
Not even close. There needs to be some form of better, efficient way of regulation, but it can't be so preventative, and, IMHO, your methods are a bit more barring than I'd agree with.
The chip thing is absurd. Do you know how many places you can buy parts? Hell, there are people who have home made forges in their garages and can make them, make ammo.... So what will it do? What will the serial number requirement do? People will get them without serials anyway. That happens now. The background thing I do agree with though. It needs to be more than "Did he go to jail etc etc" And what does being interviewed and then having references interviewed about you have to do with government positions? They do that at 99% of all jobs anyway.

MNJ is spot on in saying mental health and the treatment for it. You can blame the implements all you want but they didn't cause the person to go out and stab kids or shoot kids or make plastic homemade bombs.

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12-19-2012, 05:16 PM
  #867
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I don't think too many people are against stricter gun regulations.
You're probably right. But the divide is between people who think stricter gun laws are the solution, and people who think it is more of a crazy people issue than a gun control issue.

When you have just about as many firearms as people, it is too late. We were set on this path a long time ago. The founding fathers wanted an armed republic, and this kind of stuff happens in an armed republic.

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12-19-2012, 05:31 PM
  #868
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You're probably right. But the divide is between people who think stricter gun laws are the solution, and people who think it is more of a crazy people issue than a gun control issue.
This is what I mean.
I don't know why people get so focused on ONE solution to a problem.
Complicated, complex issues require a lot of time and a multitude of ways to attack.

When you see a problem like a mentally unstable person waltzing into a school and massacring a bunch of innocent kids and teachers... there are A LOT of things you need to do to prevent it from happening again.

Better mental health care? Yes
Stricter gun control? Yes
Create a safer environment in public schools? Yes
A societal reality check in which we all realize that dealing with people who seem mentally unstable is not to laugh awkwardly and walk away or shun them into solitude? Hell yes.

It's not an a la carte type of menu. These are all issues that require work - both from the government and from ourselves.

It doesn't have to be a government mandated blitz on our way of life as we know it. Just critical thinking and smart planning focused into all of the above and then some.

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12-19-2012, 05:36 PM
  #869
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I like guns, but I may not be able to legally purchase one. I have asperger syndrome, and they're actually saying this Lanza may have had it also.

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12-19-2012, 05:46 PM
  #870
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Moronic, knee-jerk reaction. And sadly typical of reactionary society.
You're attributing the removal of the songs to censorship by, ...actually I'm not sure who.

This is being done out of sensitivity to people who aren't prepared to think about this yet. Common decency, not malicious censorship.

Quote:
You stated that the ease of access to guns leads to mass murder. Perhaps that wasn't how you meant to phrase it, but I was simply pointing out that that is easy to prove as being false.
No, you parsed my statement wrong, I even went back and checked what I wrote. You saw the argument you wanted to see from me, not what I wrote. Easy access to guns has always been a feature of the country, I'd have to be intellectually dishonest to say otherwise.

However, easy access to assault weapons, as I specified in my post, is something that has only come about in the last century. The Founders never anticipated a situation like this. With a much larger population, a much more concentrated population, and easier access to more efficient assault weapons, gun incidents have much more potential to be lethal on a terrifying scale. Clearly unrestricted access to assault weapons is a bad idea.

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12-19-2012, 05:59 PM
  #871
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I know no one has really said this, but this is one thing I have to say about the gun argument.

Do you really thing if they come, and collect everybody's guns that the illegal gun possessors will hand in their guns too? Sure they will.

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12-19-2012, 06:50 PM
  #872
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Heroin is illegal. Doesn't mean you can't get it...somewhat easily no less.

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12-19-2012, 06:52 PM
  #873
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Heroin is illegal. Doesn't mean you can't get it...somewhat easily no less.
That's what I'm saying.

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12-19-2012, 07:13 PM
  #874
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Anybody here see "The Hobbit"?

From what I'm hearing, it's pretty damn good...

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12-19-2012, 07:27 PM
  #875
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[QUOTE=BenedictGomez;56679105]And just think, all that took was an oppressive, Communist society that's slaughtered thousands for them to have that "safety".

Great argument. Obviously we have to become oppressive Communists and slaughter thousands to put stricter gun regulations in place. That is literally the only way to do it. I concede, you got me.

Note that Japan - a country that has adored gratuitous violence to the extent that their B -movies make ours look like Pixar films, that has an entire segment of their porn industry designed around r*pe, and that became so known for their willingness to go kill themselves to kill their enemies in times of war that the word kamikaze is synonymous with suicide bomber around the world - has fewer gun-related murders in a decade than we put up in a month. Run those numbers per capita or any other way you want. We'll never even sniff those numbers with the amount of guns already in circulation, but continuing on the status quo isn't going to do anything to help.


-----

Not that he couldn't have poisoned the kids, etc.....

He could have done that. He could have constructed homemade bombs too. Either of those are more difficult than buying a gun, and more difficult to execute.

-----

Of course you are. Why cant people just be honest about this issue? Stigma? Peer pressure? Societal pressure?

Actually I'm not. I enjoy shooting rifles (moreso than pistols or shotguns) and I respect the competitive shooting scene. In the summer, my sport organization (comprised of a handful of people) will be hosting one of the premiere shooting competitions in my state.

And yet, there are people in this country who should never be able to buy a gun legally, who have no problem doing so.


-----

This would do what? (Serial)

Admittedly, it's likely that there wouldn't be a significant impact. I'm less fond of this idea compared to the RFID requirement.

-----

This would do what? (RFID)

-Allow for future infrastructure for schools, malls, colleges, banks, etc. to be alerted if somebody brings a gun on the grounds. Maybe people still get killed at Sandy Hook/Columbine/VT even if an alarm went off when the shooters got within 50-200 feet of the doors, but at the very least, a PA announcement telling teachers to lock their doors and put their kids under tables would've been helpful. Of course this is an expensive and very long term option, but Chiappa (an Italian gun manufacturer) has already put RFID chips in their weapons, and the RFID company ODIN has developed weapon tracking capabilities. And ODIN already has the capability to create associations specific to a chip, so (for example) a gun registered to a policeman wouldn't set off the alarms at a school and create unnecessary panic.

-Allow for greater accountability. A significant portion of gun crimes are committed with guns that have outdated registration. Let's say I lose a gun or have it stolen. I can report it lost/stolen and if that gun pops up anywhere, it's potentially easier to track down. Again, it's not a full solution but it's an improvement over "My gun was lost/stolen and now nobody has any clue where it is."

-Reduce the reliance on eye witness testimonies. Again, I know that more crimes are committed with unregistered weapons, but that doesn't mean they all are. A guy is shot 7 times and 2 more bullets are in the wall, and you just happened to shoot your gun 9 times that night? It no longer matters that nobody saw you do it.

I won't claim to be an expert on RFID tracking capabilities so perhaps some of that is beyond the current scope of possibility, but there are enough uses for RFID to justify their implementation.


-----

Well now.

That's uhhh...... that's scary as *******.

I didn't see that one coming.

Is it scary that the screening process to buy a tool primarily designed for killing should more closely resemble a job application for the Department of Defense than one for a tanning salon? There's not even a drug test. I can head out to Dick's Sporting Goods after a 14 hour meth bender, and so long as I don't have an established criminal record or documented mental illnesses, I'll have a gun by the end of the week.

I'm not sure if you've ever taken part in a government job search, but I have for a friend who was looking to get a job in the defense sector. It's not particularly invasive but it is a good process. In total it took about 5 minutes of my time.



So again, I'm not anti gun. It's just quite clear that something that makes killing people so easy needs to be harder to attain in this country. If you want to make me out to be a Commie, 2nd Amendment hating pinko, so be it.


Last edited by yakitate304: 12-19-2012 at 07:33 PM.
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