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Luongo: the continuing saga ...

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:22 PM
  #551
kack zassian
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Franson isn't a reliable bottom-pairing defensman, though.

If he was don't you think the Leafs would like his cost certainty as an RFA?

He's 6'5" but plays 5'6"....Vancouver doesn't need him.

Makes NO SENSE.
Is he better than Alberts/Joslin?

If so then he serves as an improvement (albeit minor) on this team.

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12-05-2012, 05:28 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
To Toronto:
Keith Ballard (salary dump)
Roberto Luongo

To Vancouver:
Tyler Bozak
Nazem Kadri
Carter Ashton
Cody Franson
If you are treating Ballard as a dump. The Canucks will just keep him.

I believe you have already said Franson = 2nd, so we'll take the 2nd.

seanlinden has said Bozak > 1st, so we'll take the 1st.
(his list was Grabovski > Lupul > Bozak > First > Colborne >Biggs > Kadri)

Kadri + Ashton + 1st + 2nd seems okay to me...I'm pretty sure that was okay with me on the 1st of these Luongo threads as well.

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12-05-2012, 05:28 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
He's a #6/7 on the Leafs but somehow a #5-6 on the Canucks. Right.
There were only 4 defensemen on the Leafs who were better than him last year, all of whom were better than our bottom pairing.

Quote:
When did Franson magically start playing physical and being defensively sound again?



and...



Quote:
Secondary scoring, praying that Gillis can flip futures at the TDL for an impact skater (which he has never done) is something that's unrealistic.
Oh you mean the same gaping holes we'd have if we didn't trade Luongo? I'd rather have extra cap space, futures(including Kadri who is NHL ready), and depth at RD. It would make us a lot more competitive in going after prime targets to supplement our top-6.

Quote:
Oh and the right side depth of Bieksa - Tanev - Franson? Laughable.
Better than Bieksa-Tanev-Nobody, as Garrison has said he isn't comfortable playing the right side. And our left-D depth would be best in the league.

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12-05-2012, 05:30 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Better than Bieksa-Tanev-Nobody, as Garrison has said he isn't comfortable playing the right side. And our left-D depth would be best in the league.
What did Garrison actually say? I believe it was that he was more comfortable on the left...maybe someone should ask him at street hockey today.

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12-05-2012, 05:31 PM
  #555
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
What did Garrison actually say? I believe it was that he was more comfortable on the left...maybe someone should ask him at street hockey today.
Well, at least Bowness is going to be playing him on the left.
http://canucksarmy.com/2012/11/15/ri...ing-edler-over

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12-05-2012, 05:32 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Are you serious? Leafs take on that much salary, with the cap going down, and give up prospects as well? Wow.
Yes, Leafs cap situation doesnt really seem to matter

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12-05-2012, 05:33 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
There were only 4 defensemen on the Leafs who were better than him last year, all of whom were better than our bottom pairing..
That's a terrible argument, there is a huge gap between Phaneuf/Gunnar and Franson. Franson is healthy scratch material, especially on a contender.

btw I don't know why you showed the 3 highlights, that doesn't make him any more competent as a dman.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Oh you mean the same gaping holes we'd have if we didn't trade Luongo? I'd rather have extra cap space, futures(including Kadri who is NHL ready), and depth at RD. It would make us a lot more competitive in going after prime targets to supplement our top-6.
Why would you downgrade the roster of a contender?

Wanna trade for Perry? Do it at the deadline, deal Luongo then too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Better than Bieksa-Tanev-Nobody, as Garrison has said he isn't comfortable playing the right side. And our left-D depth would be best in the league.
Put Edler on the right side.

Canucks with Luongo + Ballard > Canucks with your proposed package. That's all that matters.


Last edited by kthsn: 12-05-2012 at 05:39 PM.
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Old
12-05-2012, 05:34 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Question: Would you do this without Ballard?

While he is pricey, I dont think people want to dump him as a cap dump unless neccessary.

Also, potential to switch Ashton to Biggs/Frattin? (w/ or w/out Ballard)
If you would prefer, I'd do something like this...

To Van:
Bozak
Kadri
Ashton

To Tor:
Luongo
4th in 2013


I'd gladly keep Franson. The guy is a beast and just needs an opportunity. I'm a fan of his. He's 6'5 with a great wing span and a booming shot. The only reason I include him in so many deals is because he's currently unnsigned.

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12-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #559
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VKW do you really think any of TO's secondary assets are going to make a difference in a Perry/rental trade?

If a team wants value the Canucks can offer that. A deal will never hinge on an UFA Bozak or a throw in like Ashton.

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12-05-2012, 05:36 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
If you are treating Ballard as a dump. The Canucks will just keep him.

I believe you have already said Franson = 2nd, so we'll take the 2nd.

seanlinden has said Bozak > 1st, so we'll take the 1st.
(his list was Grabovski > Lupul > Bozak > First > Colborne >Biggs > Kadri)

Kadri + Ashton + 1st + 2nd seems okay to me...I'm pretty sure that was okay with me on the 1st of these Luongo threads as well.
so the leafs take on over 9 million and give up roughly 1.5?

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:39 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
That's a terrible argument, there is a huge gap between Phaneuf/Gunnar and Franson. Franson is healthy scratch material, especially on a contender.
It's a better argument than saying "he's terrible, he's soft" etc without anything to back it up.

Quote:
Why would you downgrade the roster of a contender?

Wanna trade for Perry? Do it at the deadline, deal Luongo then too.

Canucks with Luongo + Ballard > Canucks with your proposed package. That's all that matters.
Ballard >/= Franson
Kadri + Bozak added to our top-9 > replacing one of our goalies with Lack
Increasing odds of getting an impact player at the deadline > nothing



Quote:
Put Edler on the right side.
So why mess up our team's chemistry if we don't need to? Edler hasn't done well on the right side in the past, and if we can play him on his natural side instead of forcing him to change his game, that would make us a better team.

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12-05-2012, 05:40 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
There were only 4 defensemen on the Leafs who were better than him last year, all of whom were better than our bottom pairing.





and...





Oh you mean the same gaping holes we'd have if we didn't trade Luongo? I'd rather have extra cap space, futures(including Kadri who is NHL ready), and depth at RD. It would make us a lot more competitive in going after prime targets to supplement our top-6.



Better than Bieksa-Tanev-Nobody, as Garrison has said he isn't comfortable playing the right side. And our left-D depth would be best in the league.
Oh puhlease, I see Raymond fall down harder than that regularly with NO help. True story.

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:41 PM
  #563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
If you would prefer, I'd do something like this...

To Van:
Bozak
Kadri
Ashton

To Tor:
Luongo
4th in 2013


I'd gladly keep Franson. The guy is a beast and just needs an opportunity. I'm a fan of his. He's 6'5 with a great wing span and a booming shot. The only reason I include him in so many deals is because he's currently unnsigned.
Van
Bozak
Kadri
1st 2013 (top 10 protected otherwise becomes 2014 1st)

Tor
Luongo
3rd 2013

Best deal I would make. Can't go much lower when dealing for star player.

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:41 PM
  #564
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
VKW do you really think any of TO's secondary assets are going to make a difference in a Perry/rental trade?

If a team wants value the Canucks can offer that. A deal will never hinge on an UFA Bozak or a throw in like Ashton.
How do you know? Anaheim needs a 2C(i.e. Bozak), and if they lose Perry to UFA and Selanne to retirement, they might very well be looking to rebuild. Kadri is a solid prospect. Ashton I'm not as high on, but any team looking to add sandpaper might be interested in him.

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12-05-2012, 05:44 PM
  #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Van
Bozak
Kadri
1st 2013 (top 10 protected otherwise becomes 2014 1st)

Tor
Luongo
3rd 2013

Best deal I would make. Can't go much lower when dealing for star player.
Minus the protection, I think that's a fairly sensible trade.


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12-05-2012, 05:44 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So why mess up our team's chemistry if we don't need to? Edler hasn't done well on the right side in the past, and if we can play him on his natural side instead of forcing him to change his game, that would make us a better team.
I can't remember any specific instances where Edler spent more than a cup of coffee on the right side. Do you remember who he played with, or when it was?

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12-05-2012, 05:47 PM
  #567
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
Van
Bozak
Kadri
1st 2013 (top 10 protected otherwise becomes 2014 1st)

Tor
Luongo
3rd 2013




Best deal I would make. Can't go much lower when dealing for star player.


A 1st would't be involved if Kadri and Bozak were, unless Vancouver wanted to add something substantial.

You have your bottom line, so do I.


Either remove Kadri or Bozak from the equation and add the 1st if you like.

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:48 PM
  #568
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
I can't remember any specific instances where Edler spent more than a cup of coffee on the right side. Do you remember who he played with, or when it was?
I remember reading somewhere that Edler didn't like playing on the right side. I can try looking it up somewhere, but forcing defensemen to play their off sides generally doesn't work out too well.

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12-05-2012, 05:48 PM
  #569
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's a better argument than saying "he's terrible, he's soft" etc without anything to back it up.
Franson was 6th in TOI, behind Komisarek/Schenn/everyone else.
Franson had the 6th easiest zone starts.
He had the worst zone finishes, even behind Jay Rosehill.

He's barely a bottom pairing defenseman on a lottery team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Ballard >> Franson
Kadri + Bozak added to our top-9 > replacing one of our goalies with Lack
So Luongo is traded for a tweener winger/#3C? It's too bad Gillis hasn't shown the ability to get those pieces for mid round draft picks even with no cap space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Increasing odds of getting an impact player at the deadline > nothing
Explain. None of TO's pieces will be the difference between an acquisition or not. Anything we receive we can offer more value internally (ie Jensen instead of Ashton).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
So why mess up our team's chemistry if we don't need to?
(I hope you get it).

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12-05-2012, 05:51 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
It's a better argument than saying "he's terrible, he's soft" etc without anything to back it up.
He is soft, and isn't a 'reliable' 3rd pair defensman, he's not even Leaf fans admit it.

Why do you think he and Bozak are generally the first two guys Leaf fans mention to trade?

I'm sure I could drum up some Taylor Pyatt highlights where he threw some nice hits....to me Franson is Taylor Pyatt on defense....

we don't need these types of players.

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12-05-2012, 05:58 PM
  #571
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
A 1st would't be involved if Kadri and Bozak were, unless Vancouver wanted to add something substantial.

You have your bottom line, so do I.


Either remove Kadri or Bozak from the equation and add the 1st if you like.
But you just said you would swap Ashton for 2nd right?

Then it would be

Van
Bozak
Kadri
2nd

Tor
Luongo
4th

Then I upgraded the 4th to a 3rd, and upgraded 2nd to 1st. To make it:

Van
Bozak
Kadri
1st (protected)

Tor
Luongo
3rd

Seems pretty close if you ask me

2nd/4th vs. 1st/3rd

I'm not sure what you are so scared about in regard to the 1st it is top 10 protected? What if we made it conditional on Toronto making playoffs, meaning it is now top 15 protected, otherwise deferred to 2014?

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Old
12-05-2012, 05:59 PM
  #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Franson was 6th in TOI, behind Komisarek/Schenn/everyone else.
Franson had the 6th easiest zone starts.
He had the worst zone finishes, even behind Jay Rosehill.

He's barely a bottom pairing defenseman on a lottery team.
He played a better than Schenn and Komisarek, neither of which he could easily bump out of the lineup due to their pedigree. He was also on pace for 32 points this season on that mediocre TOI. He's not a shutdown defenseman. He'd ideally be playing with Garrison, who's a rock defensively, helping generate more scoring from our blueline while adding some size as well.

Quote:
So Luongo is traded for a tweener winger/#3C? It's too bad Gillis hasn't shown the ability to get those pieces for mid round draft picks....
Except those aren't the only pieces. And Kadri has 1st line upside. Obviously I'd prefer a return with a top line player. As I said, I wouldn't be happy with this, but I could live with it.

Quote:
Explain. None of TO's pieces will be the difference between an acquisition or not. Anything we receive we can offer more value internally (ie Jensen instead of Ashton).
Because it's a lot easier to acquire and sign star UFAs with $9mil more in cap space?

Quote:
Okay...if you think we're better off moving Edler to the right than bringing in a decent right side defenseman to help keep everyone playing more comfortably, I guess that's your prerogative.

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12-05-2012, 06:05 PM
  #573
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Because it's a lot easier to acquire and sign star UFAs with $9mil more in cap space?.
If the biggest issue is finding a way to get a star UFAs salary in then Gillis will make deals accordingly. It's not his style to shred 9M and then hope that Perry falls into his lap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Okay...if you think we're better off moving Edler to the right than bringing in a decent right side defenseman to help keep everyone playing more comfortably, I guess that's your prerogative.
Yes I think keeping our roster as intact as possible is the key to winning in the playoffs.

Kadri + Bozak + Franson + Garrison + possibly Perry in a compact schedule will have major chemistry issues.

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12-05-2012, 06:10 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
If the biggest issue is finding a way to get a star UFAs salary in then Gillis will make deals accordingly. It's not his style to shred 9M and then hope that Perry falls into his lap.


Yes I think keeping our roster as intact as possible is the key to winning in the playoffs.

Kadri + Bozak + Franson + Garrison + possibly Perry in a compact schedule will have major chemistry issues.

I agree with the first part, and I wish to add "minus Luongo" to the second part. He's still a leader on this team.

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12-05-2012, 06:11 PM
  #575
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If the biggest issue is finding a way to get a star UFAs salary in then Gillis will make deals accordingly. It's not his style to shred 9M and then hope that Perry falls into his lap.
When's the last time we had $9 mil tied up in two expendable players?

Quote:
Yes I think keeping our roster as intact as possible is the key to winning in the playoffs.

Kadri + Bozak + Franson + Garrison + possibly Perry in a compact schedule will have major chemistry issues.
Yes, adding all those players to our team will definitely make us worse. We'd be much better off standing pat and having Edler play his off-side to help cover for the departures of Rome/Salo.

Why should teams even bother filling holes on their roster(like RD, 3C, RW) if it could cause chemistry issues?

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