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Luongo: the continuing saga ...

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Old
12-05-2012, 11:48 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
First of all, Pavelec statistically was not a huge upgrade on the Leafs goaltending from last year.

Secondly, how is giving up significant assets for another question mark worth it?
It's not, he's wrong. You already know this.

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12-05-2012, 11:49 PM
  #777
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Sam Gagner is someone I could see playing wing (or center) on a line with Kesler. He's a good playmaker, and at the very young age of 23 has become a consistent 40 point player.

I also have high hopes for MPS and see this as a very nice buy-low opportunity.
Fair enough, but how is that package miles ahead of the aforementioned one from the Leafs?

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12-05-2012, 11:51 PM
  #778
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Fair enough, but how is that package miles ahead of the aforementioned one from the Leafs?
Dude, it's Sam ****ING Ga8ner!

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12-05-2012, 11:51 PM
  #779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Fair enough, but how is that package miles ahead of the aforementioned one from the Leafs?
Because Bozak is garbage, Kadri is the type of player who will clash with Vigneault (we got rid of Grabner because of his lack of defensive awareness and he was a better offensive player than Kadri...there's no way Kadri would be successful here) and the draft pick for some stupid reason has to be protected. If it's a top 10 draft pick I pull the trigger, if not then I see no reason to do this.

The Edmonton players are a better fit for Vancouver.

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12-05-2012, 11:55 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Because Bozak is garbage, Kadri is the type of player who will clash with Vigneault (we got rid of Grabner because of his lack of defensive awareness and he was a better offensive player than Kadri...there's no way Kadri would be successful here) and the draft pick for some stupid reason has to be protected. If it's a top 10 draft pick I pull the trigger, if not then I see no reason to do this.

The Edmonton players are a better fit for Vancouver.
If he goes to the oilers, can the oilers get new jerseys? i'd hate to have to buy one of those ugly blue and orange jerseys.

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12-05-2012, 11:57 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
Dude, it's Sam ****ING Ga8ner!
Oh right! The guy with the 8 point game. Well duh its all clear to me now!

Quote:
Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Because Bozak is garbage, Kadri is the type of player who will clash with Vigneault (we got rid of Grabner because of his lack of defensive awareness and he was a better offensive player than Kadri...there's no way Kadri would be successful here) and the draft pick for some stupid reason has to be protected. If it's a top 10 draft pick I pull the trigger, if not then I see no reason to do this.

The Edmonton players are a better fit for Vancouver.
Calling Bozak garbage is silly. He's not.

Kadri is the type of player to clash with Vigneault but MPS isn't? Not seeing it but okay so you don't like Kadri because you assume he won't be successful in Vancouver.

The draft pick is protected because Leaf fans are paranoid after the never ending Kessel saga. But if Luongo is a top 5 goalie like you say, why would the Leafs be picking top 10 anyway?

You're entitled to your opinion of course but I'm not seeing the disjoint between Gagner + MPS vs some of the Leaf packages that makes one good and the other laughable. At least not based on value.

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12-06-2012, 12:01 AM
  #782
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Oh right! The guy with the 8 point game. Well duh its all clear to me now!



Calling Bozak garbage is silly. He's not.

Kadri is the type of player to clash with Vigneault but MPS isn't? Not seeing it but okay so you don't like Kadri because you assume he won't be successful in Vancouver.

The draft pick is protected because Leaf fans are paranoid after the never ending Kessel saga. But if Luongo is a top 5 goalie like you say, why would the Leafs be picking top 10 anyway?

You're entitled to your opinion of course but I'm not seeing the disjoint between Gagner + MPS vs some of the Leaf packages that makes one good and the other laughable. At least not based on value.
I agree with this. Personally I'd prefer Hemsky to Gagner, and I think Edmonton would as well(Gagner is their 2C, ahead of Horcoff, and we need a playmaking RW more than a softish 3C)

Although Gagner's resumè against Chicago is pretty tempting

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12-06-2012, 12:01 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Ya, sure ,cause Luongo would waive to go to Edmonton...lol Good luck selling that to Roberto.

Not to mention I doubt Edmonton wants to get bogged down with Lu's contract, especially with all that talent that they will have to lock up. (RNH + Yak +)
don't be so sure I mean they got RNH schults hall eberle Yak they are going to start to look real good to players going forward

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12-06-2012, 12:03 AM
  #784
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I agree with this. Personally I'd prefer Hemsky to Gagner, and I think Edmonton would as well(Gagner is their 2C, ahead of Horcoff, and we need a playmaking RW more than a softish 3C)
Oh I agree. If Hemsky and MPS is on the table, it makes sense as it gives Vancouver their immediate boost on the wing plus a good prospect.

Its the other one that baffles me.

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12-06-2012, 12:04 AM
  #785
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I hope it's true. Again I doubt Luongo waives to go there. Maybe create a Lu to Edm thread and see how receptive their fans are. You might have something there. Hopefully the offer more than what we would, but i doubt it as you're division rivals.
We don't need a Luongo to Edmonton thread, you are in the all encompassing Luongo thread...

I think it was settled on Hemsky + MPS + 1st/2nd. With a lot of debate on the pick. Canucks fans don't want to give the Oilers the one thing they're missing though.

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12-06-2012, 12:05 AM
  #786
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
We don't need a Luongo to Edmonton thread, you are in the all encompassing Luongo thread...

I think it was settled on Hemsky + MPS + 1st/2nd. With a lot of debate on the pick. Canucks fans don't want to give the Oilers the one thing they're missing though.
No, I think it was Hemsky + MPS or a 1st(top-10 protected). Not both. But still decent.

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12-06-2012, 12:06 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
We don't need a Luongo to Edmonton thread, you are in the all encompassing Luongo thread...

I think it was settled on Hemsky + MPS + 1st/2nd. With a lot of debate on the pick. Canucks fans don't want to give the Oilers the one thing they're missing though.
Yeah, honestly, that high-end offensive skill the Oilers have is dangerous. Even with Dubnyk, they are pretty solid. Thrown in a pissed off Luongo and they would mop the floor with us.

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12-06-2012, 12:08 AM
  #788
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Of course! The .006/.003 increase in save percentage that the Leafs would have received from Pavelec over the two aforementioned goalies respectively is truly a "huge" upgrade.
Thats about 15 goals. How much more would you pay Kessel to score 15 more goals?

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12-06-2012, 12:12 AM
  #789
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Thats about 15 goals. How much more would you pay Kessel to score 15 more goals?
It's about a 11 goal difference. I don't know why your nonsensical extrapolation to Kessel scoring more goals was brought up, but if you were to read what I was responding to, you would maybe notice my issue was with the poster claiming that Pavelec is a "huge" upgrade. 11 goals, 15? That isn't huge.

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12-06-2012, 12:14 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
You're right, it doesn't. But there is a good crop of free agents coming up. Those are some nice targets.

But if you are right and Vancouver will not accept anything short of a Lupul type, then I don't know if Burke does it. He could, depending on internal factors but I just don't know. It doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense unless JVR/Kadri start lighting the world on fire or something.

You're right though, if Burke were willing to trade Lupul for Luongo I wouldn't expect to add much.
Not quite my point, but Lupul+1st was offered a short time back, and that seemed the minimum. Not a consensus on either side of course, but we get an offensive element we don't currently have, and the value is lower then we'd like, but all things considered we can live with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
First of all, Pavelec statistically was not a huge upgrade on the Leafs goaltending from last year.

Secondly, how is giving up significant assets for another question mark worth it?
Yeah I was gunna say. I like Pavelec, but it screams Raycroft/Giguerre/Monster/Toskala again. An improvement on paper, but...Kadri and a first is steep for that kind of increase.

Not that I have to run this argument up the flag pole, but SEEE?!?!?!?!?!

That's my argument. Booth/Ballard/Sturm/Samuelsson/Demitra/Kassian/Ehrhoff and now Garrisson have all been brought in to try to give us what we lack: dependable secondary scoring or to improve our offence from the back end. We've been burned too, so we don't want a "maybe he'll be better" or a "one season wonder" or even a "he's good with good line mates" kind of players. We don't want up and down, or the product of a system. It's essentially the same situation but instead of goaltending, we want secondary scoring.

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12-06-2012, 12:30 AM
  #791
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Not quite my point, but Lupul+1st was offered a short time back, and that seemed the minimum. Not a consensus on either side of course, but we get an offensive element we don't currently have, and the value is lower then we'd like, but all things considered we can live with it.



Yeah I was gunna say. I like Pavelec, but it screams Raycroft/Giguerre/Monster/Toskala again. An improvement on paper, but...Kadri and a first is steep for that kind of increase.

Not that I have to run this argument up the flag pole, but SEEE?!?!?!?!?!

That's my argument. Booth/Ballard/Sturm/Samuelsson/Demitra/Kassian/Ehrhoff and now Garrisson have all been brought in to try to give us what we lack: dependable secondary scoring or to improve our offence from the back end. We've been burned too, so we don't want a "maybe he'll be better" or a "one season wonder" or even a "he's good with good line mates" kind of players. We don't want up and down, or the product of a system. It's essentially the same situation but instead of goaltending, we want secondary scoring.
Yes, I think you and I understand each other fairly well. I completely understand you wanting an immediate impact vs. the uncertainty of a futures package.

If we had players to replace Lupul the way you have a goalie to replace Luongo, it would make perfect sense. If we revisited this trade a year later giving JVR/Kadri and/or any potential free agent signings (wink wink) time to establish themselves, Toronto probably makes Lupul available. Unfortunately, the Leafs don't have that luxury in my opinion but it depends on Burke's expectations for JVR/Kadri. Burke may very well see Lupul as moveable but I'm not sure.

Guess we'll find out what happens.

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12-06-2012, 12:36 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Yes, I think you and I understand each other fairly well. I completely understand you wanting an immediate impact vs. the uncertainty of a futures package.

If we had players to replace Lupul the way you have a goalie to replace Luongo, it would make perfect sense. If we revisited this trade a year later giving JVR/Kadri and/or any potential free agent signings (wink wink) time to establish themselves, Toronto probably makes Lupul available. Unfortunately, the Leafs don't have that luxury in my opinion but it depends on Burke's expectations for JVR/Kadri. Burke may very well see Lupul as moveable but I'm not sure.

Guess we'll find out what happens.
Bingo.

And on a side note, I'm imagining Bettman and Fehr having the same "discussion" style going on with the CBA until today. Am I the only one? "Take it, it's the best we'll do" then "no, that's trash, we want ALL this" then "no, our offer is the best you'll get" then "fine" then "fine" then "fine" then "fine". No?

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12-06-2012, 12:59 AM
  #793
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Because Bozak is garbage, Kadri is the type of player who will clash with Vigneault (we got rid of Grabner because of his lack of defensive awareness and he was a better offensive player than Kadri...there's no way Kadri would be successful here) and the draft pick for some stupid reason has to be protected. If it's a top 10 draft pick I pull the trigger, if not then I see no reason to do this.

The Edmonton players are a better fit for Vancouver.
I'm surprised that you would trade Luongo to Edmonton for only Hemsky + MPS. It's not that the deal is terrible, but to a division rival with that talent is extremely risky. If we fill there goaltending hole with moderate cap hit they can really go after a defenceman or 2. MPS and Kadri are not terribly different in prospect quality, hell MPS has only put 13points in AHL this season with all the talent around him. If Toronto offered Bozak/Kulemin + Kadri + 1st I think that would be a lot smarter to take. Less division/playoff risk. Hemsky is better offensively but injury prone and more expensive than Bozak/Kulemin. In fact many believe he is overpaid. The 1st should compensate the difference in value for Toronto's pieces in my opinion. If you really want Hemsky we could flip that 1st to Edmonton for him, but what is so great about MPS?

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12-06-2012, 01:02 AM
  #794
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I wonder if Gillis wants to get young players back? If so, Edmonton has a few. I think Gillis would want roster players for a guy like Luongo, not prospects or projects. Can Toronto spare any?

I am against the idea of trading the veteran starter that is Luongo but do appreciate the team has needs to fill, as well. Imagine you are GM of Vancouver. Look over the roster on Capgeek. If you can pry a young star out of somebody for the top six you'd be doing okay. For now.

Gillis can adjust value, as well, if there are no stars available and he has to pay for a superstar. Edler and Luongo would transform a team's back end. He can add picks or accept salary back, as well. How happy would you think a young Russian is in Washington, D.C.?

Did you people know that Burke participated in framing a lawsuit that cost the Aquilinis millions of dollars? He testified in court! The claimant was new Dallas owner Gagalardi. I doubt that the Stars or Leafs will land Luongo. More likely is that Gillis is allowing Burke to think he's getting a goalie and then accepting another offer. This leaves Burke fuct in net and nobody can say Gillis didn't just take a better offer. Perfect!

Luongo has stated he will not block a trade. Privately, I bet his agent blocked any Canadian trades. Luongo would fit perfectly in a number of American teams, NJ, Detroit, Boston and Philadelphia are a few that are obvious. It will be a costly aquisition, though.

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12-06-2012, 01:21 AM
  #795
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Did you people know that Burke participated in framing a lawsuit that cost the Aquilinis millions of dollars? He testified in court! The claimant was new Dallas owner Gagalardi. I doubt that the Stars or Leafs will land Luongo. More likely is that Gillis is allowing Burke to think he's getting a goalie and then accepting another offer. This leaves Burke fuct in net and nobody can say Gillis didn't just take a better offer. Perfect!
Not good trade partners, Luongo wanting to go to a contender, Burke v. Aquilini...it's still fun to talk about, but damn it's not looking likely.

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12-06-2012, 01:40 AM
  #796
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Interesting but am I the only one who sees Kadri and a 1st for Pavelec as a very bad idea?
You're not. I agree Toronto gets ripped off. Pavelec likely wouldn't commend more than a second a decent prospect, the latter of which I feel Kadri is better than. Edmonton has enticing pieces but my concerns with Hemsky is his injury history. Between him and Kesler, we could lose our second line in a blink.

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12-06-2012, 05:26 AM
  #797
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Yep, with Luongo they make the playoffs last year.

To TOR: Pavlec
To WIN: Luongo + Ballard + Kadri + VAN 3rd
To VAN: Little + Antropov + Win 1st + TOR 1st
You think we trade Kadri and a 1st for Pavelic?? No thanks....we have our Pavelic...his name is Reimer.

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12-06-2012, 06:19 AM
  #798
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He was 60 minutes removed from a cup.


He was in the Conn Smythe discussion after game #5.


His playoff stats on the whole compare very well to other goalies.


The Cup, and by extension the Conn Smythe Trophy, are team driven awards. No one says Lundqvist's value is suspect without that hardware do they? Luongo has come as close as you can without winning it, with years of high end play... Nobody in their right mind would hold that against him.





And back to the Jets' offer, Little + Antropov + 2nd, can you beat it? You wanted to speculate on the speculation correct? So there it is. Have at it.
And the bottom line is... he didn't win anything. If you're looking to improve only your playoff performance, you don't do so by trading for a goalie who's never won a cup.

Back to the Jets offer, no we wouldn't beat it... but it seems to be based on the Jets 25 year old starting goaltender wanting to retire... that's hardly logical, or a realistic expectation.

Quote:
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Interesting but am I the only one who sees Kadri and a 1st for Pavelec as a very bad idea?
Yeah, it is, but its not that far off. Kadri + a 2nd is probably a good idea.

What's a terrible idea is Winnipeg, a budget team, trading Pavelec, Antropov, Little and a 1st for Ballard, Luongo, Kadri and a 3rd.

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12-06-2012, 08:16 AM
  #799
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And the bottom line is... he didn't win anything. If you're looking to improve only your playoff performance, you don't do so by trading for a goalie who's never won a cup. Back to the Jets offer, no we wouldn't beat it... but it seems to be based on the Jets 25 year old starting goaltender wanting to retire... that's hardly logical, or a realistic expectation.



Yeah, it is, but its not that far off. Kadri + a 2nd is probably a good idea.

What's a terrible idea is Winnipeg, a budget team, trading Pavelec, Antropov, Little and a 1st for Ballard, Luongo, Kadri and a 3rd.
So if Lundquist magicaly became available you wouldn't trade for him?

Lui's Playoff numbers are some of the best all time, I can't remember where, but it has been mentioned in this thread a few times. These arguments about his contract and about playoffs are all laughable.

I am not trying to force Lui onto anyteam. If you don't want him, that is more than fair. But some people need learn, if they don't want him stop offering absolute trash back.

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12-06-2012, 08:19 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
So if Lundquist magicaly became available you wouldn't trade for him?

Lui's Playoff numbers are some of the best all time, I can't remember where, but it has been mentioned in this thread a few times. These arguments about his contract and about playoffs are all laughable.

I am not trying to force Lui onto anyteam. If you don't want him, that is more than fair. But some people need learn, if they don't want him stop offering absolute trash back.
I'll agree to a point...there is such a wide gap in what people percieve as fair value that no matter what is offered it will either be trash or overpayment.

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