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Luongo: the continuing saga ...

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:43 PM
  #851
racerjoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Credible??

The only way I do that deal is if you send Kesler back with Luongo. So, you might as well get that right out of your head.

Bozak + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo


If you want you can have Mac included if you throw in Raymond.
Credible meaning not rumor from SamJAM. The other rumor that had legs was Burke offered Schenn. Which has lots of legs seeing as he was then promptly traded a few days later.

I no longer even read your proposals... I just say no

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:44 PM
  #852
DougGilmour93
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Originally Posted by live playoff hockey View Post
change Ashton to Finn or a protected first and I'm down
Nah. I'm good.
What I would do is change one of Bozak or Kadri to a top ten protected 1st if you'd like.

So...

Bozak/1st + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo

I can add MAc for Raymond as well if you prefer.

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:46 PM
  #853
DougGilmour93
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
Credible meaning not rumor from SamJAM. The other rumor that had legs was Burke offered Schenn. Which has lots of legs seeing as he was then promptly traded a few days later.

I no longer even read your proposals... I just say no
That's cool. Your proposals make no sense for us either.

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:49 PM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Credible??

The only way I do that deal is if you send Kesler back with Luongo. So, you might as well get that right out of your head.

Bozak + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo


If you want you can have Mac included if you throw in Raymond.
say what you want about the individual sources, but it was corroborated by Cox and Botchford ...so that's more real IMO than anything we've heard since. Also, there were more stories early in the summer that Gillis' price was too high from places like Chicago and Florida ...so I think it's more likely than anything else we've heard that there was truth to that high asking price from Gillis. Again, I am not advocating whether it's fair or not, just that it's far more substantiated than the myriad speculations since (Kadri/Bozak, whatnot)

Since then, Gillis has been quoted as saying he's ok going with both goalies if need be. This is also a fact.

So, speaking with the closest approximation to fact versus speculation (again, understanding that my point is not entirely the former, but by far the closest thing to), what exactly make everyone think that Gillis has dropped his price and is interested in assorted Leaf spare parts, dumps and 'protected' picks?

I see nothing but wishful thinking that indicates this.

again, to reiterate to the point of nausea -- I am not interested in speculative appraisals of value. It really doesnt matter a damn if I think he's worth the crown jewels and you think he's worth a bag of pucks. Going off everything that's been reported from the guy who's selling the asset, the vast majority of speculation here is a wishful thinking. I'm sorry, but I don't see any other interpretation.


EDIT -- tempered it a bit ...im POd after tonight's news


Last edited by NYVanfan: 12-06-2012 at 09:00 PM.
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Old
12-06-2012, 08:56 PM
  #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Nah. I'm good.
What I would do is change one of Bozak or Kadri to a top ten protected 1st if you'd like.

So...

Bozak/1st + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo

I can add MAc for Raymond as well if you prefer.
I'd prefer the 1st to Bozak, we don't really need him. As with most of your proposals, they are very close, but still a bit below. Drop Ashton and make it Kulemin for Raymond and I would be okay with it.

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Old
12-06-2012, 08:58 PM
  #856
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'd prefer the 1st to Bozak, we don't really need him. As with most of your proposals, they are very close, but still a bit below. Drop Ashton and make it Kulemin for Raymond and I would be okay with it.
um no.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:00 PM
  #857
DougGilmour93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
I'd prefer the 1st to Bozak, we don't really need him. As with most of your proposals, they are very close, but still a bit below. Drop Ashton and make it Kulemin for Raymond and I would be okay with it.
I'd be ok with this...


1st (top ten protected) + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo

I just thought you wanted more immediate help as suppose to an entire futures package. But I guess the pakage does help you immediately, as it frees up cap space you can use to upgrade in other areas.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:06 PM
  #858
Vankiller Whale
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I'd be ok with this...


1st (top ten protected) + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo

I just thought you wanted more immediate help as suppose to an entire futures package. But I guess the pakage does help you immediately, as it frees up cap space you can use to upgrade in other areas.
Kulemin or Lupul are the only real pieces that upgrade us now. Macarthur isn't much of an upgrade on Raymmond, if at all, and Bozak I am reluctant to include, as unless we are getting a bona fide shut down 3C, I'd rather try out Schroeder in that role.

As I said, if we added Raymond and you swapped Ashton for Kulemin, I'd do it. Right now it's really, really close for me.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:09 PM
  #859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I'd be ok with this...


1st (top ten protected) + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo

I just thought you wanted more immediate help as suppose to an entire futures package. But I guess the pakage does help you immediately, as it frees up cap space you can use to upgrade in other areas.
So the cap could come down as much as 12 million and we're sending no money back?

Yea, ok.


And we're giving them a 1st and our best forward prospect?

AAhhaaha

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:11 PM
  #860
DougGilmour93
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Kulemin or Lupul are the only real pieces that upgrade us now. Macarthur isn't much of an upgrade on Raymmond, if at all, and Bozak I am reluctant to include, as unless we are getting a bona fide shut down 3C, I'd rather try out Schroeder in that role.

As I said, if we added Raymond and you swapped Ashton for Kulemin, I'd do it. Right now it's really, really close for me.
Kulemin is too important to our roster. If Kulemin was going to be involved in a deal the dest I would do would be him and a 2nd. That's how much I value him. Plus the guy is playing incredible overseas right now. He has it in him. He has an off year, he lost some of his best friends and mentors in that terrible plane crash. It effected him deeply, as it would effect any of us. His heart wasn't in playing this past year.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:14 PM
  #861
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Kulemin is too important to our roster. If Kulemin was going to be involved in a deal the dest I would do would be him and a 2nd. That's how much I value him. Plus the guy is playing incredible overseas right now. He has it in him. He has an off year, he lost some of his best friends and mentors in that terrible plane crash. It effected him deeply, as it would effect any of us. His heart wasn't in playing this past year.
Fair enough. Although I think with the addition of JVR he might be more expendable than you think.

I believe a deal will end up looking something like this, but I certainly understand your POV.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:19 PM
  #862
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Fair enough. Although I think with the addition of JVR he might be more expendable than you think.

I believe a deal will end up looking something like this, but I certainly understand your POV.
JVR adds speed, creativity and a nice wingspan, but the knock on him is that he doesn't play physical and isn't good along the boards. Kulemin does all of that and he proved it 2 seasons ago. We desperately need his game.

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Old
12-06-2012, 09:48 PM
  #863
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Just heard the latest CBA news via TSN....both sides frustrated with eachother and a deal looks very far off if at all. Guess we can put these trade talks to bed now as it looks like the billionaire babys are going to kill the season.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:15 PM
  #864
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
All I'm saying is that I think that if we do acquire a 3C from outside, he would have to be big, or else there's no point in acquiring him when we have Schroeder. It's not like Antropov is some awful player. He'd likely be the 2C on a bad team. He may not be the greatest skater, but I wouldn't mind if we have him as our 3C going into next season. Whether or not we should focus on size or speed is debateable. but he's still perfectly competent.



When has Antropov been thought of as a competent shutdown 3C?



You're acting like you can put anyone in that spot and they'll succeed. Not so. I'd rather keep Ballard as the 5th Dman, than block Schroeder and alternate Alberts/Connauten/Sauve in his former spot. It just makes no sense to try and target a slow player, not "not the greatest skater", he's flat out slow. It has been a major drawback for him in his career.



Quote:
Sedin-Sedin-Burrows
Booth-Kesler-Kulemin
Higgins-Kadri-Hansen
Lapierre-Malhotra-Kassian
Raymond/Weise

Maybe your lineup looks a bit difference, but I don't see both Kadri and Schroeder having spots, we're backlogged enough as it is with bottom-6 players.



Kadri and Schroeder will be competing for the same spot. Just like Bozak and Schroeder would be if he were brought in. Also, moving forward, Malhotra/Raymond/Weise are not assured to return. Bear that in mind when making line-ups.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:37 PM
  #865
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I'd be ok with this...


1st (top ten protected) + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo

I just thought you wanted more immediate help as suppose to an entire futures package. But I guess the pakage does help you immediately, as it frees up cap space you can use to upgrade in other areas.
Issue with this one is cap space.

With a likely dropping cap it will be difficult to get Luongo under the cap if we send $0 cap hit back.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:41 PM
  #866
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Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Issue with this one is cap space.

With a likely dropping cap it will be difficult to get Luongo under the cap if we send $0 cap hit back.
Won't make a difference because players you are sending back contracts expire next. Cap won't drop till next year. Therefore salary you are sending will have no effect on your cap situation once the cap does decreas.

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Old
12-06-2012, 10:50 PM
  #867
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Originally Posted by Rare Jewel View Post
So the cap could come down as much as 12 million and we're sending no money back?

Yea, ok.


And we're giving them a 1st and our best forward prospect?

AAhhaaha
Well yeah, if you're not willing to send any roster players worth a pot to piss in it's hard to send salary back.

You want to move salary? Ship JVR, Lupul or Kulemin plus picks and prospects.

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12-06-2012, 10:59 PM
  #868
DougGilmour93
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Won't make a difference because players you are sending back contracts expire next. Cap won't drop till next year. Therefore salary you are sending will have no effect on your cap situation once the cap does decreas.
I'm not understanding this...


Kadri is a RFa would need to be re-upped. Ashton has another year remaining 810,000.
I think I might be missing your point. Sorry

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:03 AM
  #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
Credible??

The only way I do that deal is if you send Kesler back with Luongo. So, you might as well get that right out of your head.

Bozak + Kadri + Ashton

for

Luongo


If you want you can have Mac included if you throw in Raymond.
Not neccessary fan valuation:

But if Gillis DID originally ask for 1st, Gardiner, Frattin, Bozak

I wonder what Burke/Gillis would think of

Vancouver
Nazem Kadri (downgrade from Gardiner)
Matt Finn (basically a late 1st from last year, downgrade from Reilly)
Matt Frattin
Tyler Bozak

Its significantly less than Gillis (alleged) demand, but still gives some value to Van

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:21 AM
  #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Not neccessary fan valuation:

But if Gillis DID originally ask for 1st, Gardiner, Frattin, Bozak

I wonder what Burke/Gillis would think of

Vancouver
Nazem Kadri (downgrade from Gardiner)
Matt Finn (basically a late 1st from last year, downgrade from Reilly)
Matt Frattin
Tyler Bozak

Its significantly less than Gillis (alleged) demand, but still gives some value to Van


I would do this deal even if Frattin were replaced with Reimer.


This is essentially the type of deal I could see both GMs negotiating down to, _IF_ the initial demand was actually tabled. No 5th overall and no Gardiner from the original package.

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12-07-2012, 12:22 AM
  #871
Numbers
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Originally Posted by DougGilmour93 View Post
I'm not understanding this...


Kadri is a RFa would need to be re-upped. Ashton has another year remaining 810,000.
I think I might be missing your point. Sorry
I was meaning current roster players Bozak, Connolly, Lombardi, MacArthur who might be sent with only a year left on deal. I don't think trading Kadri is sending salary because he is not on the roster currently and by the time the cap decreases many of Toronto's under performing players deals will have expired, which opens a lot of space. Ashton will still be ELC and probably will be in AHL. Cap isn't supposed to contract until next year.

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:26 AM
  #872
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I would do this deal even if Frattin were replaced with Reimer.


This is essentially the type of deal I could see both GMs negotiating down to, _IF_ the initial demand was actually tabled. No 5th overall and no Gardiner from the original package.
Other considerations are
- Vans prospect pool is weak in every department pretty much (a few bright spots)
- Gives them a solid wing, center and d-prospect (covering all theor bases)
- 2 are "NHL ready"

None of the players Toronto gives are lilely to become top-end talent, whereas Gardiner/Reilly could very well become star/top tier players.

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12-07-2012, 12:53 AM
  #873
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
I would do this deal even if Frattin were replaced with Reimer.


This is essentially the type of deal I could see both GMs negotiating down to, _IF_ the initial demand was actually tabled. No 5th overall and no Gardiner from the original package.
Also no real interest in Reimer (unless we flipped him)

I would swap Frattin for Biggs... But I think overall

Finn + Kadri + Bozak + Frattin is close enough to Gillis asking price but Toronto keeps Reilly/Gardiner as well as their 1st.

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12-07-2012, 05:33 AM
  #874
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Originally Posted by racerjoe View Post
So if Lundquist magicaly became available you wouldn't trade for him?

Lui's Playoff numbers are some of the best all time, I can't remember where, but it has been mentioned in this thread a few times. These arguments about his contract and about playoffs are all laughable.

I am not trying to force Lui onto anyteam. If you don't want him, that is more than fair. But some people need learn, if they don't want him stop offering absolute trash back.
I would, at least from a Leaf standpoint. Toronto needs to worry about getting to the playoffs... and there's a price at which they should pay for an older goaltender.

If you're a team like Florida who made the playoffs last year, and primary concern is now doing better in the playoffs... swapping your goalie out for one who hasn't won a stanley cup generally isn't how you're going to go about doing that. Heck, if you're a team like Florida, you ride Jose Theodore as long as you can, he wants to be there, he's cheap, and a pretty good mentor for Markstrom.

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Old
12-07-2012, 05:44 AM
  #875
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Originally Posted by kthsn View Post
Little - 3M
Antropov 4.7M
Pavelec 3.2M

for

Luongo 6.7M
Ballard 4.2M
Kadri 0.8M

A gain of 1M which they make up easily from playoff revenue. Hell Luongo jerseys will probably make that up.
You realize that both Antropov & Little are impending UFAs, right? They'll earn whatever their value is next year, if they are needed / affordable.

The real problem with that deal is that it adds over $3m to their goaltending position long term, and an extra year of a defenceman they don't need.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spasmatic Dan View Post
Kadri + 2nd may be closer in value (I still think its too much but that is of course my own opinion) but I'm more concerned with the principle of it. As I see it, we are giving up assets to replace a question mark with a question mark.

Pavelec is skilled no doubt but the only reason Winnipeg would move him would be if they found him to be too risky...which would be exactly the reason Toronto wouldn't want to acquire him since we have a risk in net and we're trying to acquire stability.

My 2 cents.
Every goalie has risk... Philadelphia learned that the hard way. If available, the notion of trading for Pavelec is a no-brainer. He's 25 years old and has 3 years where he's played over 40 games, all of which were at a .900+ sv%, and one of which was .914.

He's got a reasonable 5 year deal at $3.9m. Now, he may not be the #1 of our future, but that's fine. Starting James Reimer with Ben Scrivens as backup is setting him up for failure. However, between the two of Reimer/Pavelec, the Leafs should be fine.

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