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Luongo: the continuing saga ...

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Old
12-07-2012, 06:47 AM
  #876
seanlinden
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Originally Posted by sully1410 View Post
Pavelec retire? huh?

the deal that we came to was Little(piece of value), antropov(basically dead weight), and 2nd for Luongo and Ballard. Pavs would be flipped to another team for another fistful of picks, or a younger third line center to replace Antro. Ballard is an upgrade on Hainsey.

I have absolutely no interest in Kadri, or trading our 2013 first.
According to Canucks fans, your deal was predicated on Pavelec not returning from Europe. That would require him to retire.

I'm now curious as to why you think it's in the best interest of a young, budget-restricted team to abandon their 25 year old goaltender to add $3m of payroll and 8 years of age to the position.

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12-07-2012, 06:51 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Well the Kadri package sure, but I'd have to think long and hard about that Lupul + 1st package. Assuming that value is even offered up.


Little is a good player. I'm not saying I would accept the package, just that moving Ballard for Antropov doesn't make long-term sense. If anything, moving Ballard for picks/prospects seems more likely given the pending cap-crunch.


The other thing is footspeed. If it's one think Gillis and management are targeting, even amongst bigger players, is skating ability. Antropov is slow. So I'm not sure he fits here for that reason alone.
"Ballard for picks/prospects seems more likely given the pending cap-crunch."

Do you really believe that Ballard is going to have any value in the 2013 offseason? That pending cap crunch means a lot of teams are going to be desparate to shed salary... how many are going to line up to give you something of definite positive value for him?

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12-07-2012, 06:55 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Not neccessary fan valuation:

But if Gillis DID originally ask for 1st, Gardiner, Frattin, Bozak

I wonder what Burke/Gillis would think of

Vancouver
Nazem Kadri (downgrade from Gardiner)
Matt Finn (basically a late 1st from last year, downgrade from Reilly)
Matt Frattin
Tyler Bozak

Its significantly less than Gillis (alleged) demand, but still gives some value to Van
What is your justification for seeking such an ubsurd price?

So far, the best offer you've laid claim to is Little/Antropov/2nd for Luongo/Ballard.

Even if that's a deal that makes sense for the Jets, that's really the baseline to be working off of.... and that's not a deal that the Leafs should be prepared to match.

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12-07-2012, 07:04 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What is your justification for seeking such an ubsurd price?

So far, the best offer you've laid claim to is Little/Antropov/2nd for Luongo/Ballard.

Even if that's a deal that makes sense for the Jets, that's really the baseline to be working off of.... and that's not a deal that the Leafs should be prepared to match.
Seriously, you'd think the Leafs were trying to acquire Chris Pronger in his prime or another player of the sort.

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12-07-2012, 07:48 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
"Ballard for picks/prospects seems more likely given the pending cap-crunch."

Do you really believe that Ballard is going to have any value in the 2013 offseason? That pending cap crunch means a lot of teams are going to be desparate to shed salary... how many are going to line up to give you something of definite positive value for him?


The teams that generally have trouble attracting FAs might be in the mix. As would teams looking to temporarily increase pay roll, perhaps from the floor, in order to better compete now.


A few come to mind right away: DAL, NYI, OTT and WPG. However, given that I know how HF works, I wouldn't expect the fans to be too receptive to the idea. Bottom line, I think there are options for a player like Ballard - especially given the fact that he is a great skater. The longevity of this types of players is an asset. Gillis has actually commented to this effect in the media.

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12-07-2012, 07:52 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by The Saurus View Post
Seriously, you'd think the Leafs were trying to acquire Chris Pronger in his prime or another player of the sort.

Please attempt to compare that package to this: Joffrey Lupul, Ladislav Smid, a 1st round selection in 2007, a conditional 1st round selection and a 2nd round selection in 2008


This should be interesting. (Right away, I'm taking a 1st over any one asset in that TOR package.)


Last edited by Bleach Clean: 12-07-2012 at 07:57 AM.
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12-07-2012, 08:01 AM
  #882
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The teams that generally have trouble attracting FAs might be in the mix. As would teams looking to temporarily increase pay roll, perhaps from the floor, in order to better compete now.


A few come to mind right away: DAL, NYI, OTT and WPG. However, given that I know how HF works, I wouldn't expect the fans to be too receptive to the idea. Bottom line, I think there are options for a player like Ballard - especially given the fact that he is a great skater. The longevity of this types of players is an asset. Gillis has actually commented to this effect in the media.
Do you really not believe they're going to have better options available when upwards of 10 teams will be looking to dump salary, and a plethora of UFAs are available?

That's certainly an interesting take on it, especially how often you call Toronto players salary dumps at a $70m cap.

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12-07-2012, 08:09 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Do you really not believe they're going to have better options available when upwards of 10 teams will be looking to dump salary, and a plethora of UFAs are available?

That's certainly an interesting take on it, especially how often you call Toronto players salary dumps at a $70m cap.

They may, they may not. Only time will tell.


Which TO players are you referring to in particular. I have called the likes of Connolly and Lombardi cap-dumps, but I didn't think this was a point of contention? Many view them that way. I'm also not saying that you can't view Ballard in the same way, you can. I don't, but you can. And anyways, what does this have to do with Luongo again?

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12-07-2012, 08:18 AM
  #884
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They may, they may not. Only time will tell.


Which TO players are you referring to in particular. I have called the likes of Connolly and Lombardi cap-dumps, but I didn't think this was a point of contention? Many view them that way. I'm also not saying that you can't view Ballard in the same way, you can. I don't, but you can. And anyways, what does this have to do with Luongo again?
Absolutely.

It's ubsurd to suggest that players like Connolly/Lombardi are "cap dumps" for one year when the cap is at $70m (as it's going to be if a season happens, a situation where only 3 teams couldn't add Lombardi with no other changes), while at the same time suggesting that Keith Ballard at $4.2m for 2 years at a substantially lower cap is not a "cap dump".

Mike Komisarek would be a closer comparable, and while he's obviously not a skating defenceman like Ballard, he only has 1 year remaining on his deal.

What does it have to do with Luongo? Not a lot, I'm just curious as to the double-standard you apply to evaluating players.

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12-07-2012, 08:21 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by kack zassian View Post
Not neccessary fan valuation:

But if Gillis DID originally ask for 1st, Gardiner, Frattin, Bozak

I wonder what Burke/Gillis would think of

Vancouver
Nazem Kadri (downgrade from Gardiner)
Matt Finn (basically a late 1st from last year, downgrade from Reilly)
Matt Frattin
Tyler Bozak

Its significantly less than Gillis (alleged) demand, but still gives some value to Van
How is Matt Finn basically a late 1st?

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12-07-2012, 08:22 AM
  #886
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Absolutely.

It's ubsurd to suggest that players like Connolly/Lombardi are "cap dumps" for one year when the cap is at $70m (as it's going to be if a season happens), while at the same time suggesting that Keith Ballard at $4.2m for 2 years at a substantially lower cap is not a "cap dump".

Mike Komisarek would be a closer comparable, and while he's obviously not a skating defenceman like Ballard, he only has 1 year remaining on his deal.

What does it have to do with Luongo? Not a lot, I'm just curious as to the double-standard you apply to evaluating players.


It's not a double-standard when I view that player to be better than any of the three you mentioned. Rendering your argument irrelevant. But do carry on. Quite amusing.


The "standard" in question becomes suspect when you start drawing a straight line from Komisarek to Ballard. It doesn't exist for me. Again, it may for you, but it doesn't for me. Perfectly acceptable to have differing opinions on the matter though.

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12-07-2012, 08:43 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What is your justification for seeking such an ubsurd price?

So far, the best offer you've laid claim to is Little/Antropov/2nd for Luongo/Ballard.

Even if that's a deal that makes sense for the Jets, that's really the baseline to be working off of.... and that's not a deal that the Leafs should be prepared to match.
The only offer that approximates fact, insofar as its linked to the one rumour that is in anyway based in reality, other that pulled from the collective posterior...?

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12-07-2012, 08:44 AM
  #888
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How is Matt Finn basically a late 1st?
the guy was projected by most scouts to go in the 1st round. Quite easily at that. Some had him in the 15-20 range.

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12-07-2012, 08:48 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
How is Matt Finn basically a late 1st?
Right, its conceivable to see gillis dowgrading gardiner to kadri, i suppose

Kadri, bozak, frattin, 1st

The 1st will certainly be a downgrade from the #5 OA, but i could see Gillis settling there too

Again, i can understand if leaffans dont like the price, but imo, given what gillis has said, logic dictates a price in this area, or he will hold

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12-07-2012, 08:53 AM
  #890
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The downgrade from Rielly (5th OA) to a 2013 1st isn't that big of a downgrade (5th to 15th IMO).

The downgrade from Gardiner to Kadri is a huge downgrade but I'm not really a huge Kadri supporter, Gillis might be.

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12-07-2012, 08:55 AM
  #891
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Originally Posted by NYVanfan View Post
Right, its conceivable to see gillis dowgrading gardiner to kadri, i suppose

Kadri, bozak, frattin, 1st

The 1st will certainly be a downgrade from the #5 OA, but i could see Gillis settling there too

Again, i can understand if leaffans dont like the price, but imo, given what gillis has said, logic dictates a price in this area, or he will hold
Well...i thank you for understanding, because i think that price is horribly large from a TO prospective. Serious question, with the cancelation of the season becoming a reality, what do you think that does to Luongo's value going forward?

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12-07-2012, 09:02 AM
  #892
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When has Antropov been thought of as a competent shutdown 3C?

You're acting like you can put anyone in that spot and they'll succeed. Not so. I'd rather keep Ballard as the 5th Dman, than block Schroeder and alternate Alberts/Connauten/Sauve in his former spot. It just makes no sense to try and target a slow player, not "not the greatest skater", he's flat out slow. It has been a major drawback for him in his career.
Just because a player is slow doesn't mean he can't play hockey. Ryan Clowe is also slow, and is still very effective at providing grit and toughness and scoring. Antropov would provide a similar package(but to a lesser extent). As I said, I'd prefer a package with one better top-6 forward and no 3C involved so as to give Schroeder a chance, but if the choice is Little + 2nd or Little + 2nd + Antropov for Luongo + Ballard, it's an easy choice for me. Especially beacuse it gives us more cap flexibility going into next year.




Quote:
Kadri and Schroeder will be competing for the same spot. Just like Bozak and Schroeder would be if he were brought in. Also, moving forward, Malhotra/Raymond/Weise are not assured to return. Bear that in mind when making line-ups.
So either Kadri or Schroeder will not be playing. And you seem to have changed your mind, as before you said Kadri would be moved to wing, when there is absolutely no room for him there as well. It wouldn't be any different than bringing in any other 3C and having Schroeder compete with him either. Why is Bozak any different than say, Antropov? If we bring in any other centres in a Luongo trade, it likely means we've given up on Schroeder, which is why I'd prefer to go for as high a quality top-6 forward + pick combination as possible, with little else involved.

As for long term, I really don't think having Kadri-Schroeder as our bottom-6 centres is a good idea. 2 smallish rookies on a contending team? I highly doubt Gillis goes for that.


Last edited by Vankiller Whale: 12-07-2012 at 09:08 AM.
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12-07-2012, 09:12 AM
  #893
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Well...i thank you for understanding, because i think that price is horribly large from a TO prospective. Serious question, with the cancelation of the season becoming a reality, what do you think that does to Luongo's value going forward?
Well, he gets older, loses argubly the best of the remaining years (just insofar as age goes, though a guy like Thomas is always an counter-argument there..) so logically the price goes down..
However, i havent looked at the teams who have goalie situations open up in the summer (if there are any), so that may be in Gillis' favor....but its more speculative then.

It may well be that his best move wouldve been in the early summer, to go for that schenn/jvr 3-way (if it was ever a reality), but honestly hard to see much of a downside to hanging onto him now, if the risk is really just missing out on the likes of Bozak/Kadri.

In any case, if the season is cancelled, its all moot, as he cant do anything, and we have 9 more months of these threads to look forward to. I am holding onto a thread of hope that the union comes back with a better proposal -- that Bettman presser was compelling, and it feels like Fehr is over-reaching. Im hoping the players press him into some concessions that get it done.

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12-07-2012, 09:14 AM
  #894
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Seriously, you'd think the Leafs were trying to acquire Chris Pronger in his prime or another player of the sort.
Luongo was nominated for the Veizna one season ago, plays the most important position in hockey, and is signed long-term.

The reality is, in the minds of Canucks fans and as recently as last year in the minds of the hockey world, Luongo was a "player of that sort".

The fact that a goalie that has put up save% of 0.929 and 0.937 in back to back seasons behind him has earned the right to start a few games over him to see if he can keep that up doesn't make Luongo trash...here's the list of goalies who have performed better than Schneider on a save% basis over the last two years: None. If Schneider had played that well on the Rangers, you might see Lundqvist sitting on the bench to start the year next year.

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12-07-2012, 10:01 AM
  #895
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According to Canucks fans, your deal was predicated on Pavelec not returning from Europe. That would require him to retire.
I'm now curious as to why you think it's in the best interest of a young, budget-restricted team to abandon their 25 year old goaltender to add $3m of payroll and 8 years of age to the position.
According to the poster, it was his attitude and DUI plus how he was playing I believe.

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12-07-2012, 10:19 AM
  #896
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The Winnipeg stuff is fantasy. The only 3 teams that were reported to have credible interest were the Leafs, Panthers and Hawks, and that was months ago. Chi and Fla fans are just a lot more sane than Leaf & Canuck fans, it seems...

Can you imagine these threads come May-June if the season is wiped? It'll be like Mickey Rourke in Barfly in here...

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12-07-2012, 10:25 AM
  #897
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The Winnipeg stuff is fantasy. The only 3 teams that were reported to have credible interest were the Leafs, Panthers and Hawks, and that was months ago. Chi and Fla fans are just a lot more sane than Leaf & Canuck fans, it seems...

Can you imagine these threads come May-June if the season is wiped? It'll be like Mickey Rourke in Barfly in here...
Don't forget EDM, and a mystery team.

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12-07-2012, 10:33 AM
  #898
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I don't know how many threads there has been on a eventual Luongo trade, but I've read them all and I can't wait until the actual trade is made. Ofcoarse with our luck the trade will be made, and a asteroid will hit the earth preventing anyone from ever knowing. I can see it right now, in the year 2206 some other version of the human being, will pick up the piece of paper that Gillis wrote the real Luongo trade on. It will read Luongo for..........well the other half of the Lou trade will be burnt away from fire. We may never know.

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12-07-2012, 10:46 AM
  #899
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The Winnipeg stuff is fantasy. The only 3 teams that were reported to have credible interest were the Leafs, Panthers and Hawks, and that was months ago. Chi and Fla fans are just a lot more sane than Leaf & Canuck fans, it seems...

Can you imagine these threads come May-June if the season is wiped? It'll be like Mickey Rourke in Barfly in here...
I trueley think that the most beneficial deal would be Van/Chi. Luongo makes Chicago a contender, and probably can afford a nice player(s) that can help Van.

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12-07-2012, 10:50 AM
  #900
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With the potential for decertification eliminating the cap, Luongo's value would arguably go up.

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