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Ilitch Announces New Arena Plans

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Old
12-11-2012, 02:50 PM
  #126
WorkingOvertime
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Well, if you consider the cost to build some other venues in the recent past:

Prudential Center: $375 in 2007
Jobing: $220 in 2003 ($278 in 2012 dollars)
Xcel: $130 million, ($175 million in 2012 dollars)
Consol Energy: $321 million in 2010 ($350 million in 2012 dollars)

These are all multipurpose arenas.

What are you getting for the additional $300 MM?
The project is more than a multipurpose arena, it is an entertainment district. Ilitch could build a multipurpose arena only, at a much lower cost, and the Wings likely would not see a drop in attendance (assuming the on ice product stays competitive). However, that type of project isn't what Detroit needs, and it isn't the vision that Ilitch has for the arena. Here is a quote from the Detroit Free Press on the issue:

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"It's always been my dream to once again see a vibrant downtown Detroit," said Mike Ilitch, chairman of Ilitch Holdings Inc. and owner of the Red Wings and Detroit Tigers, in a news release. "From the time we bought the Fox Theatre, I could envision a downtown where the streets were bustling and people were energized. It's been a slow process at times, but we're getting there now and a lot of great people are coming together to make it happen. It's going to happen and I want to keep us moving toward that vision."

The Senate committee is considering changes to the Downtown Development Authority Act to provide for the development. More details are pending.

While the exact location of the district has not been determined, it will be strategically located to serve some of the most underutilized areas in Detroit's downtown core, strengthening the link between Detroit's existing assets through a continuous, walkable environment connecting one district to the next and serving to improve the quality of life for residents and visitors alike, the news release says.
Only building a multipurpose arena would be a missed opportunity for a city that desperately needs development.

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12-11-2012, 02:54 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Well, if you consider the cost to build some other venues in the recent past:

Prudential Center: $375 in 2007
Jobing: $220 in 2003 ($278 in 2012 dollars)
Xcel: $130 million, ($175 million in 2012 dollars)
Consol Energy: $321 million in 2010 ($350 million in 2012 dollars)

These are all multipurpose arenas.

What are you getting for the additional $300 MM?
Some of that can be attributed to the rising cost of material and labour. I have no data to back me up for your specific cases, but it's been widely stated in the old return-of-the-Jets threads that there's no way on Earth that the MTS Centre could have been built today for the $133.5 million ($175 million in 2012 dollars) that they built it for.

I'm sure Ilitch is also asking for more than he *really* needs, knowing that he won't get what he wants, but will settle for what he needs. No matter what he asks for, the amount of public money will be trimmed down, so you might as well start high so that the stuff that gets trimmed off are the most superfluous and least necessary.

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12-11-2012, 04:11 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by WorkingOvertime View Post
The project is more than a multipurpose arena, it is an entertainment district. Ilitch could build a multipurpose arena only, at a much lower cost, and the Wings likely would not see a drop in attendance (assuming the on ice product stays competitive). However, that type of project isn't what Detroit needs, and it isn't the vision that Ilitch has for the arena. Here is a quote from the Detroit Free Press on the issue:

Only building a multipurpose arena would be a missed opportunity for a city that desperately needs development.

I still hold to the principle that if you're going to invest in your future, education and infrastructure are the things you must first tackle. The rest will follow on top of that. This is focusing on entertainment, which is often a luxury or indulgence that affluent societies derive from an overabundance of affluence.

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12-11-2012, 04:12 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
I still hold to the principle that if you're going to invest in your future, education and infrastructure are the things you must first tackle. The rest will follow on top of that. This is focusing on entertainment, which is often a luxury or indulgence that affluent societies derive from an overabundance of affluence.
You don't support this being built in Warren or Plymouth?

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Old
12-11-2012, 04:16 PM
  #130
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You don't support this being built in Warren or Plymouth?

It's not about the location, but the use of public funds and tax exemptions.

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12-11-2012, 04:38 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
Buck Aki Berg enough. The league is locked out. What benefit are they receiving right, considering no one is working?
That is a part of the problem of having an outdated facility that doesn't always get the branded acts that pump in millions in concert revenue. Those groups do not play the Joe Louis by in large, they play out at the Palace in the suburbs only coming to the Joe if they have multiple stops. Now some of them do come but not all will make it a priority stop, this will do that. An interesting factor for a lot of Wings fans will be what this does to the ice as the lack of extra activity is a part of the reason the Wings ice is one of the best in the league.

Making a decent size chunk of Detroit nice is the goal of this project. It connects midtown and downtown. It will have a significant impact on the dowtown Wayne State University. There are a bunch of upsides, the Cobo and Joe Louis area can be used as a convention center and they can do some of the work they needed to do to both. Helping make that a better situation.

If you wanted to follow where that 12 million dollars go fine. Chances are you wouldn't like it very much. It will probably be handled as poorly as DPS and the city have done education to date. Raising money through taxes that actually help the business area and improve neighborhoods seems a better bet for longterm success. Either way they need significant changes to the local government and the way they attempt to do just about everything downtown. I have at least 15 friends that have attempted to move downtown and left after a year or so of trying. Something like this in an area near where they were that brings with it an improvement to a larger area could have a great impact moving forward.

This is a longterm buy in. For as much as people dump on these things. This idea has had great impacts in cities such as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, San Francisco near the Giants new park.

The School system also needs reign in some of their procedures to begin with. They have already announced closing half the schools because enrollment has been halved over the last decade down to around 80,000. That is right half as many kids attend class, I guess I would be figuring out how to get people back to town. This plan seems much better than we let DPS disappear another 12 million bucks and to what end? The most vocal person about this on the state level didn't want it even going directly into the DPS system but rather paying college tuition funds. Basically taking kids that already qualify for academic assistance and rolling them under this program shipping the 12 million dollars around the state and away from Detroit unless it goes to Wayne State. Seeing as Wayne State University might gain the most from this potential stadium build outside of the Wings and Ilitch and hasn't said a word that should tell you something about that plan.

Either way they were going to argue about the money, this assumption that it was going directly back into Detroit might not be accurate. It was going to get used, I have yet to hear a plan that was backed this favorably and has this kind of upside.

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12-11-2012, 06:03 PM
  #132
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It's not about the location, but the use of public funds and tax exemptions.
If tax exemptions were not in place, the income and jobs generated would go away...ask the movie industry. They were set to film at least 4 blockbuster sized movies in the Detroit area in the last few years and Gov. Snyder nixed the tax breaks and lost all of those jobs and income.

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12-11-2012, 07:05 PM
  #133
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there were no jobs, really, since crews were being brought in and the income to the state wasn't enough to offset the tax incentives themselves. all of those studios that people were going to be built turned out to be fronts for hucksters looking for a quick buck.

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12-11-2012, 07:43 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
It's not about the location, but the use of public funds and tax exemptions.
Fair enough. I agree.

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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
That is a part of the problem of having an outdated facility that doesn't always get the branded acts that pump in millions in concert revenue. Those groups do not play the Joe Louis by in large, they play out at the Palace in the suburbs only coming to the Joe if they have multiple stops. Now some of them do come but not all will make it a priority stop, this will do that. An interesting factor for a lot of Wings fans will be what this does to the ice as the lack of extra activity is a part of the reason the Wings ice is one of the best in the league.

Making a decent size chunk of Detroit nice is the goal of this project. It connects midtown and downtown. It will have a significant impact on the dowtown Wayne State University. There are a bunch of upsides, the Cobo and Joe Louis area can be used as a convention center and they can do some of the work they needed to do to both. Helping make that a better situation.

If you wanted to follow where that 12 million dollars go fine. Chances are you wouldn't like it very much. It will probably be handled as poorly as DPS and the city have done education to date. Raising money through taxes that actually help the business area and improve neighborhoods seems a better bet for longterm success. Either way they need significant changes to the local government and the way they attempt to do just about everything downtown. I have at least 15 friends that have attempted to move downtown and left after a year or so of trying. Something like this in an area near where they were that brings with it an improvement to a larger area could have a great impact moving forward.

This is a longterm buy in. For as much as people dump on these things. This idea has had great impacts in cities such as Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Indianapolis, San Francisco near the Giants new park.

The School system also needs reign in some of their procedures to begin with. They have already announced closing half the schools because enrollment has been halved over the last decade down to around 80,000. That is right half as many kids attend class, I guess I would be figuring out how to get people back to town. This plan seems much better than we let DPS disappear another 12 million bucks and to what end? The most vocal person about this on the state level didn't want it even going directly into the DPS system but rather paying college tuition funds. Basically taking kids that already qualify for academic assistance and rolling them under this program shipping the 12 million dollars around the state and away from Detroit unless it goes to Wayne State. Seeing as Wayne State University might gain the most from this potential stadium build outside of the Wings and Ilitch and hasn't said a word that should tell you something about that plan.

Either way they were going to argue about the money, this assumption that it was going directly back into Detroit might not be accurate. It was going to get used, I have yet to hear a plan that was backed this favorably and has this kind of upside.
The thing is I want detroit to come back completely. I hope this works because I would like to see something gameday generate income and bring jobs back downtown.

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12-11-2012, 08:05 PM
  #135
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there were no jobs, really, since crews were being brought in and the income to the state wasn't enough to offset the tax incentives themselves. all of those studios that people were going to be built turned out to be fronts for hucksters looking for a quick buck.
You are woefully uninformed. The productions used and agreed to continue using Teamster and other union personnel and local labor and skills. They were hiring from all over the state. Thats how they got the exemptions. The people like directors, DPs, and other production personnel that they could not find here would be staying in town or close and the food, transportation and the tax money they paid for services and goods were huge. There were even rumors of Bay paying extra to the city to actually blow up abandoned factories and houses. That money was earmarked to be funneled straight back to the city for improvements.

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12-11-2012, 08:11 PM
  #136
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You are woefully uninformed. The productions used and agreed to continue using Teamster and other union personnel and local labor and skills. They were hiring from all over the state. Thats how they got the exemptions. The people like directors, DPs, and other production personnel that they could not find here would be staying in town or close and the food, transportation and the tax money they paid for services and goods were huge. There were even rumors of Bay paying extra to the city to actually blow up abandoned factories and houses. That money was earmarked to be funneled straight back to the city for improvements.
This is the story I heard as well. However, maybe they were not living up to their end of the bargain once they got to Detroit and got funding pulled. There were a couple movies shot in the area, so maybe they found the returns poor and pulled the plug because of that.

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12-11-2012, 08:15 PM
  #137
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This is the story I heard as well. However, maybe they were not living up to their end of the bargain once they got to Detroit and got funding pulled. There were a couple movies shot in the area, so maybe they found the returns poor and pulled the plug because of that.
We were told, while we were on set for "Detroit 187" that the reason the features pulled out was Snyder pulled tax exemption. That was saving the productions millions of dollars. Most went to Pittsburgh, Vancouver or Cleveland.

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12-11-2012, 11:20 PM
  #138
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This is the story I heard as well. However, maybe they were not living up to their end of the bargain once they got to Detroit and got funding pulled. There were a couple movies shot in the area, so maybe they found the returns poor and pulled the plug because of that.
A cautionary tale from Pontiac - tax incentives did not generate jobs:

Michigan Town Woos Hollywood, but Ends Up With a Bit Part

Quote:
Job creation became a point of contention with beleaguered Pontiac, which was being asked to waive virtually all property taxes for the studio. The investors claimed that thousands of people would be employed, but Mr. Leeb said that when he asked for job numbers to be written into the contract, the investors refused. “We started seeing some backpedaling,” said Mr. Leeb, who added that the negotiations featured “knock-down, drag-out fights.”

Mr. Nelson said he did not recall that request, but added that his company could not have guaranteed jobs anyway, since they were mainly supposed to be created by filmmakers renting out the studio.
...
As for the crew and actors, “the majority of them I think were from L.A.,” said London Moore, a local actress. Ms. Moore was the body double for Michelle Williams, who was playing Glinda. “I went into this thinking these people were probably going to be stuck up, but they welcomed me with open arms. They are like a family to me.”

Film Jobs Prove Scarce

“I’m just about the biggest critic of these programs because giving away the taxes of the city is so detrimental.”Louis Schimmel, emergency manager of Pontiac, Mich.
The studio had created only 200 positions by the summer of 2011, according to correspondence between the company and local officials. And when temporary construction workers were excluded from the tally, Pontiac’s records show, the studio reported only two employees in 2010 and 12 the next year. The studio’s chief financial officer said it had not been able to cash in on $110 million in tax credits that were contingent on creating jobs. But the studio did cash in on other credits, including $14 million for a “Film and Digital Media Infrastructure Investment Tax Credit,” he said.

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12-12-2012, 01:03 AM
  #139
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Pistons attendance is dead last in the NBA.



The team had 259 consecutive sellouts when they were good, now the arena is 45% unsold and 65% empty.

People who haven't been to Detroit can't comprehend how hard up that city is. I can't see why anyone would build anything there.
I consider it a feather in our cap that we're the first city to start abandoning that pathetic excuse for a sports league.

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12-12-2012, 07:32 AM
  #140
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In addition, there's a great desire locally to see Detroit revived. Projects that help with that perceived revival are highly popular here, both with politicians and fans. Very good business decision.
Building it in Bloomfield Hills would not be the worst idea.

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12-12-2012, 11:37 AM
  #141
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I enjoyed reading this.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/40595178/

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12-12-2012, 12:43 PM
  #142
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Make the players pay 57% of the cost

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12-12-2012, 01:17 PM
  #143
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This is a good article - as much as of a proponent that I am for public funding for these venues, I've never buried my head in the sand when it comes to the government going overboard with spending.

It's a shame that public opinion on this matter has been swayed as a result of some owners having done what they can to bleed the pubic coffers dry (I think the car rental/hotel room taxes are particularly sad cases), but we can't lose sight of the fact that these are civic structures, and the public has an obligation to pay their share (when they need updating, not when an owner decides he wants a new toy).

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12-12-2012, 04:24 PM
  #144
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Building it in Bloomfield Hills would not be the worst idea.
That would be a terrible idea, from every and any angle you look at it.

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12-12-2012, 04:30 PM
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This is a good article - as much as of a proponent that I am for public funding for these venues, I've never buried my head in the sand when it comes to the government going overboard with spending.

It's a shame that public opinion on this matter has been swayed as a result of some owners having done what they can to bleed the pubic coffers dry (I think the car rental/hotel room taxes are particularly sad cases), but we can't lose sight of the fact that these are civic structures, and the public has an obligation to pay their share (when they need updating, not when an owner decides he wants a new toy).
Philosophically, I have no problem with an area-wide tax to pay for any sporting structure...

So long as said structure is wholly owned by the public and the tenants pay rent to the public.

If Illitch kicks in his own money to help out, then he should be paid back for his investment at interest, or have the opportunity to make payments with interest until he owns it in full (just like your mortgage). Mr. I is everything that is great about Detroit, as an owner and citizen, he has earned the right to get a sweetheart mortgage on his new stadium. But it will still be a mortgage nonethless...a debt that has to be paid back.

Either way, I cannot abide the taxpayers building an arena/district/both/more/whatever and then handing the profit generated from the venture to private hands with a minimal investment.

Its the worst kind of crap this country has. If Illitch doesnt like that deal, then threaten to move the team. Good luck with that. He'd go from Mr. Detroit to sellout in 10 minutes...a lifetime of goodwill and public gratitude flushed down the toilet all because he couldnt get the same deal from Detroit that owners all over the country have received from idiotic municipalities.

Enough with this ****.

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12-12-2012, 05:47 PM
  #146
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Building it in Bloomfield Hills would not be the worst idea.
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Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post
That would be a terrible idea, from every and any angle you look at it.
Not really important, but they don't even allow fast food restaurants inside the Bloomfield Hills boundary, you think they would allow a stadium? Not to mention even as the greater Detroit area has struggled, that land is still valuable and desired, where would they get enough space to even do it?

The interesting suburbs would probably be Troy or Novi/Northville. I actually think Troy should have made a big play for this, but I am glad Ilitch is helping out the city of Detroit.


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12-12-2012, 05:51 PM
  #147
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http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/12...ntown-detroit/



On the wings board, it is suggested that the Pistons might play here too.

I wonder how much taxpayer dollars will finance the arena?
If Detroit's DDA TIF funding works like all the other DDA TIFs I've seen, the arena will be funded with tax dollars that would otherwise go to the schools, fire department, police department etc.
If Illitch wants an arena, he'll get one. After the swindling he did to get Comerica Park built its pretty obvious he won't stop at anything.

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12-12-2012, 06:13 PM
  #148
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That was pretty fascinating, but there are counter arguments. One line really stuck out for me and it is kind of off-topic but then again NHL players can have this happen. But the US taxes winning a medal at the Olympics to the tune of $25,000. I hope that isn't per medal. If it is done on each medal that would mean Phelps has paid $550,000 in taxes on just his medals.

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12-12-2012, 06:23 PM
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I consider it a feather in our cap that we're the first city to start abandoning that pathetic excuse for a sports league.
I'm sure all the african americans in the area would love to here that. Stop trolling. or is is something else.

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12-12-2012, 06:25 PM
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Building it in Bloomfield Hills would not be the worst idea.
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Not really important, but they don't even allow fast food restaurants inside the Bloomfield Hills boundary, you think they would allow a stadium? Not to mention even as the greater Detroit area has struggled, that land is still valuable and desired, where would they get enough space to even do it?

The interesting suburbs would probably be Troy or Novi/Northville. I actually think Troy should have made a big play for this, but I am glad Ilitch is helping out the city of Detroit.

NO!


This has to be in the city. The fleeing to the suburbs is over. the kids are moving to Chicago and New York now. Let's rebuild Detroit rather than encourage more sprawl.

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