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Ilitch Announces New Arena Plans

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Old
12-12-2012, 06:37 PM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I'm sure all the african americans in the area would love to here that. Stop trolling. or is is something else.
Well assuming that is what comprises the majority of Pistons fans at games would be a big mistake. The problem the Pistons face is they are too far north, when they aren't good people are not going to drive all the way from the Western suburbs and Grosse Pointe area to attend games. They also get basically no traffic from south (Windsor) and really southwest of the city. They are almost entirely supported by the northern suburbs, which brings lots of money, but in the lean times competitively hurts because you are pandering to only one part of town. While it is the part you want if you can make the choice of just one part in the metro Detroit area it has its issues as well. I grew up in the west suburbs and can tell you it is a heck of lot easier to go to Tigers and Wings games than it was Pistons and Lions (Pontiac back then) games. Since I was in a Chrysler family when they moved north of town we relocated north of town and the amount of Pistons games I went to skyrocketed. Even though b-ball was never my favorite sport, it is very easy to do from that end of town. Detroit is a very spread out metro area that factors in to things like attendance especially when your product is garbage like the Pistons.

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12-12-2012, 07:21 PM
  #152
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I still hold to the principle that if you're going to invest in your future, education and infrastructure are the things you must first tackle. The rest will follow on top of that. This is focusing on entertainment, which is often a luxury or indulgence that affluent societies derive from an overabundance of affluence.
History has proven many times over that governments do not really support education. Infrastructure sure (good roads help you mobilize and control the population better), but not education. An educated populace is far more dangerous to the powers-that-be than one which simply accepts what they are told as the truth mindlessly. The government wants a population of lemmings, not thinkers. That's why you see heavy expenses on entertainment throughout history. Keep the people happy and distracted and stupid so they never realize how badly they are being fleeced.

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12-12-2012, 07:26 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Well assuming that is what comprises the majority of Pistons fans at games would be a big mistake. The problem the Pistons face is they are too far north, when they aren't good people are not going to drive all the way from the Western suburbs and Grosse Pointe area to attend games. They also get basically no traffic from south (Windsor) and really southwest of the city. They are almost entirely supported by the northern suburbs, which brings lots of money, but in the lean times competitively hurts because you are pandering to only one part of town. While it is the part you want if you can make the choice of just one part in the metro Detroit area it has its issues as well. I grew up in the west suburbs and can tell you it is a heck of lot easier to go to Tigers and Wings games than it was Pistons and Lions (Pontiac back then) games. Since I was in a Chrysler family when they moved north of town we relocated north of town and the amount of Pistons games I went to skyrocketed. Even though b-ball was never my favorite sport, it is very easy to do from that end of town. Detroit is a very spread out metro area that factors in to things like attendance especially when your product is garbage like the Pistons.
Exactly, I didnt watch the Pistons live when they were good and i sure as hell won't drive an hour to see them lose 70% of their games. It was a three hour drive including parking when they actually had more than fifty fans show up to a game.

My buddy had court side seats from his work for last night's game against Denver and i turned him down because i was too lazy to drive all the way to Auburn Hills, I live in Grosse Pointe/I also knew he wanted me to drive, but i probably would have turned him down even if i didnt drive since the Pistons play the most boring basketball in the NBA even when they win.

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12-12-2012, 08:17 PM
  #154
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This is a good article - as much as of a proponent that I am for public funding for these venues, I've never buried my head in the sand when it comes to the government going overboard with spending.

It's a shame that public opinion on this matter has been swayed as a result of some owners having done what they can to bleed the pubic coffers dry (I think the car rental/hotel room taxes are particularly sad cases), but we can't lose sight of the fact that these are civic structures, and the public has an obligation to pay their share (when they need updating, not when an owner decides he wants a new toy).
If they are civic structures than the public should pay for them, own them, operate them and profit from them.

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12-12-2012, 08:21 PM
  #155
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Philosophically, I have no problem with an area-wide tax to pay for any sporting structure...

So long as said structure is wholly owned by the public and the tenants pay rent to the public.

If Illitch kicks in his own money to help out, then he should be paid back for his investment at interest, or have the opportunity to make payments with interest until he owns it in full (just like your mortgage). Mr. I is everything that is great about Detroit, as an owner and citizen, he has earned the right to get a sweetheart mortgage on his new stadium. But it will still be a mortgage nonethless...a debt that has to be paid back.

Either way, I cannot abide the taxpayers building an arena/district/both/more/whatever and then handing the profit generated from the venture to private hands with a minimal investment.

Its the worst kind of crap this country has. If Illitch doesnt like that deal, then threaten to move the team. Good luck with that. He'd go from Mr. Detroit to sellout in 10 minutes...a lifetime of goodwill and public gratitude flushed down the toilet all because he couldnt get the same deal from Detroit that owners all over the country have received from idiotic municipalities.

Enough with this ****.
100 percent agreed.

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12-14-2012, 07:29 PM
  #156
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=647512

Bill to support arena passed state Senate last week, today approved by state House. Now on to governor for approval/signature.

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12-15-2012, 02:14 AM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
NO!


This has to be in the city. The fleeing to the suburbs is over. the kids are moving to Chicago and New York now. Let's rebuild Detroit rather than encourage more sprawl.
There comes a time when you have to pull the plug.

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12-15-2012, 02:40 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by BruinsBtn View Post
Pistons attendance is dead last in the NBA.



The team had 259 consecutive sellouts when they were good, now the arena is 45% unsold and 65% empty.

People who haven't been to Detroit can't comprehend how hard up that city is. I can't see why anyone would build anything there.
We know the city itself is poor.

If the metro area (very large and arguably consists of parts of Ontario) is so poor how come there are no empty seats at football games in Ann Arbour?

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12-15-2012, 04:27 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
There comes a time when you have to pull the plug.
That was the late 60's for a lot of folks and they remained disinterested as long as Coleman Young was in charge and try as he might Mayor Archer had trouble gaining traction although there was some positive steps. However, then the stint by Kwame Kilpatrick didn't help matters. Right now there is traction again and some willing people, the question is will the city of Detroit fumble again. I think this could be a big positive step, others do not, time will tell. A lot of the neglect of the city of Detroit has been brought on by their appointed leaders.

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12-15-2012, 09:03 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
Well assuming that is what comprises the majority of Pistons fans at games would be a big mistake. The problem the Pistons face is they are too far north, when they aren't good people are not going to drive all the way from the Western suburbs and Grosse Pointe area to attend games. They also get basically no traffic from south (Windsor) and really southwest of the city. They are almost entirely supported by the northern suburbs, which brings lots of money, but in the lean times competitively hurts because you are pandering to only one part of town. While it is the part you want if you can make the choice of just one part in the metro Detroit area it has its issues as well. I grew up in the west suburbs and can tell you it is a heck of lot easier to go to Tigers and Wings games than it was Pistons and Lions (Pontiac back then) games. Since I was in a Chrysler family when they moved north of town we relocated north of town and the amount of Pistons games I went to skyrocketed. Even though b-ball was never my favorite sport, it is very easy to do from that end of town. Detroit is a very spread out metro area that factors in to things like attendance especially when your product is garbage like the Pistons.
Fair enough. IMO There was no way Illtich should have been outbid for the pistons.

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12-15-2012, 09:06 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
There comes a time when you have to pull the plug.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
That was the late 60's for a lot of folks and they remained disinterested as long as Coleman Young was in charge and try as he might Mayor Archer had trouble gaining traction although there was some positive steps. However, then the stint by Kwame Kilpatrick didn't help matters. Right now there is traction again and some willing people, the question is will the city of Detroit fumble again. I think this could be a big positive step, others do not, time will tell. A lot of the neglect of the city of Detroit has been brought on by their appointed leaders.

Detroit was on a roll with the superbowl and everything back then. I think this current recession hurt bad RedWings1940. Downtown and Midtown are growing.Pulling the plug did nothing Kimota. Now all those people are in phoenix in their old age.

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12-15-2012, 09:43 AM
  #162
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There comes a time when you have to pull the plug.
The plug has been pulled.

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12-15-2012, 10:09 AM
  #163
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Super Bowls, stadiums, glitzy events, that's window-dressing designed to boost political careers, enrich businessmen while covering up the structural disease that has put a place in the position it is in in the first place.

It's not like Detroit's position is really in any way bizarre, it's a city that grew on the sort of Fordist mass manufacturing that has stopped being economically viable in developed nations. It was particularly slow to diversify its economy being caught in a classic "locked in" effect (to some extent labor and its political allies are still kicking and screaming about the necessary transformation of the state's economy) and its main industrial players have struggled mightily in adapting to a global marketplace and their natural position in it (much like the U.S. steel industry or some of the other industrial giants).

At the same time Detroit saw the same racial issues most Northern industrial cities saw, except on steroids. It's hard to pinpoint the exact cause of what made it *particularly* toxic in Detroit. It might have had to do with the exact demographics of Detroit but it probably also had to do with the lack of structural transition and the shrinking pie of "good union jobs", jealously guarded by UAW, that the population was left to compete for.

In other words, we know why Detroit is Detroit for the most part, there's not really a mystery story here. We also know the best approach toward fixing these things and sports stadiums aren't really a major part of it. Whether Detroit wants sports stadiums or not is more of a psychological question than an economic one.

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12-15-2012, 11:04 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Super Bowls, stadiums, glitzy events, that's window-dressing designed to boost political careers, enrich businessmen while covering up the structural disease that has put a place in the position it is in in the first place.

It's not like Detroit's position is really in any way bizarre, it's a city that grew on the sort of Fordist mass manufacturing that has stopped being economically viable in developed nations. It was particularly slow to diversify its economy being caught in a classic "locked in" effect (to some extent labor and its political allies are still kicking and screaming about the necessary transformation of the state's economy) and its main industrial players have struggled mightily in adapting to a global marketplace and their natural position in it (much like the U.S. steel industry or some of the other industrial giants).

At the same time Detroit saw the same racial issues most Northern industrial cities saw, except on steroids. It's hard to pinpoint the exact cause of what made it *particularly* toxic in Detroit. It might have had to do with the exact demographics of Detroit but it probably also had to do with the lack of structural transition and the shrinking pie of "good union jobs", jealously guarded by UAW, that the population was left to compete for.

In other words, we know why Detroit is Detroit for the most part, there's not really a mystery story here. We also know the best approach toward fixing these things and sports stadiums aren't really a major part of it. Whether Detroit wants sports stadiums or not is more of a psychological question than an economic one.
This is a good point and 100% percent of the reason why a smaller city with the same issues, Baltimore decieded to take the NFL teams. For some people having sports is the only relevance to the national conversation

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12-15-2012, 11:26 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Super Bowls, stadiums, glitzy events, that's window-dressing designed to boost political careers, enrich businessmen while covering up the structural disease that has put a place in the position it is in in the first place.

It's not like Detroit's position is really in any way bizarre, it's a city that grew on the sort of Fordist mass manufacturing that has stopped being economically viable in developed nations. It was particularly slow to diversify its economy being caught in a classic "locked in" effect (to some extent labor and its political allies are still kicking and screaming about the necessary transformation of the state's economy) and its main industrial players have struggled mightily in adapting to a global marketplace and their natural position in it (much like the U.S. steel industry or some of the other industrial giants).

At the same time Detroit saw the same racial issues most Northern industrial cities saw, except on steroids. It's hard to pinpoint the exact cause of what made it *particularly* toxic in Detroit. It might have had to do with the exact demographics of Detroit but it probably also had to do with the lack of structural transition and the shrinking pie of "good union jobs", jealously guarded by UAW, that the population was left to compete for.

In other words, we know why Detroit is Detroit for the most part, there's not really a mystery story here. We also know the best approach toward fixing these things and sports stadiums aren't really a major part of it. Whether Detroit wants sports stadiums or not is more of a psychological question than an economic one.
At the end of the day, sports is just a really expensive distraction.

All of Detroit's sports teams could play anywhere else but Detroit, and it wouldn't make that much of a difference to the city.

I'm glad they are they are there, because something is better than nothing.
But that *something* isn't so meaningful that taxpayers should fund it.

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12-15-2012, 05:55 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Super Bowls, stadiums, glitzy events, that's window-dressing designed to boost political careers, enrich businessmen while covering up the structural disease that has put a place in the position it is in in the first place.

It's not like Detroit's position is really in any way bizarre, it's a city that grew on the sort of Fordist mass manufacturing that has stopped being economically viable in developed nations. It was particularly slow to diversify its economy being caught in a classic "locked in" effect (to some extent labor and its political allies are still kicking and screaming about the necessary transformation of the state's economy) and its main industrial players have struggled mightily in adapting to a global marketplace and their natural position in it (much like the U.S. steel industry or some of the other industrial giants).

At the same time Detroit saw the same racial issues most Northern industrial cities saw, except on steroids. It's hard to pinpoint the exact cause of what made it *particularly* toxic in Detroit. It might have had to do with the exact demographics of Detroit but it probably also had to do with the lack of structural transition and the shrinking pie of "good union jobs", jealously guarded by UAW, that the population was left to compete for.

In other words, we know why Detroit is Detroit for the most part, there's not really a mystery story here. We also know the best approach toward fixing these things and sports stadiums aren't really a major part of it. Whether Detroit wants sports stadiums or not is more of a psychological question than an economic one.
What is this best approach? Other than crime and education, what can the city improve to encourage people to move back? What will move people from Royal Oak, Birmingham, Farmington Hills, etc. into Detroit?

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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
At the end of the day, sports is just a really expensive distraction.

All of Detroit's sports teams could play anywhere else but Detroit, and it wouldn't make that much of a difference to the city.

I'm glad they are they are there, because something is better than nothing.
But that *something* isn't so meaningful that taxpayers should fund it.
What impetus is there for someone living in Birmingham/Bloomfield Hills, Royal Oak, Rochester Hills, etc to go into Detroit if there are no major events (sports or otherwise) downtown? The Wings, Tigers, Lions, NAIAS, etc. bring people into the city that otherwise wouldn't spend money in Detroit. Unless they work in Detroit, there is little reason for the wealthy Michiganders to go downtown without the aforementioned events.

Detroit needs something downtown to attract visitors, young residents, etc. to the city. Downtown attractions will revitalize the city and the surrounding neighborhoods.

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Old
12-20-2012, 10:53 AM
  #167
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http://www.freep.com/article/2012121...037/1053/rss17

Governor signs bills that will help collect monies for downtown refurbishment, including new Wings arena.

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