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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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Old
12-07-2012, 12:02 AM
  #251
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Brisson said his conversations with Burkle over the previous two days convinced him Thursday morning that a new labor contract would be finalized, at least in principle, by Friday.

“I was shocked — everybody was — to see it go this way,” he said.
http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/...rs-crosby-fehr

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12-07-2012, 12:11 AM
  #252
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Why can't the nhl use replacement players...that's what I would do.

If these current guys don't want to play in your league **** em. Get a new agreement with guys over seas and in the minors.

I don't get how refusing to play means you can't just start over new for the nhl...but I'm no business major.

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12-07-2012, 12:14 AM
  #253
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Originally Posted by OnMyOwn View Post
Why can't the nhl use replacement players...that's what I would do.

If these current guys don't want to play in your league **** em. Get a new agreement with guys over seas and in the minors.

I don't get how refusing to play means you can't just start over new for the nhl...but I'm no business major.
Because it's not a strike. The owners locked the players out.

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12-07-2012, 12:16 AM
  #254
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According to Fehr, the union accepted the owners’ wishes related to “all dollar values.” But they balked at two items in particular:
• The owners, at the behest of Burkle, pushed for a 10-year term for the labor agreement in hopes of securing longstanding labor peace to rebuild confidence in the NHL brand among fans, sponsors and networks.
When the union resisted, it was amended to eight years, with a six-year opt-out clause for either side.
Fehr stuck by the original five years, insisting that “it’s not fair to the next generation of players to not have their own say.”
• The owners are demanding contract term limits of seven years for players staying with their current team, five years for free agents.
Fehr balks at them entirely, and he cited Crosby’s 12-year, $104.4 million contract as an example of one that was struck in a manner befitting both team and player.
The owners’ response — delivered to Fehr via voicemail from deputy commissioner Bill Daly — was a resounding no. But the real response was evident hours earlier when owners began leaving for the airport, just a day after they had vowed to see the process through.
Daly pinpointed the contract term limits as “the hill we’ll die on.”
Fehr and Bettman conducted passionate news conferences, Fehr doing two — one before learning of Daly’s voicemail in which he buoyantly predicted a “deal could be coming soon,” then another after the rejection in which he called it “inexplicable” that the owners responded as they did.
Bettman was even more animated, visibly agitated and raising his voice in expressing exasperation with the union.
So what I heard was right...

Why in the hell would Bettman get up there and cause a scene like that, over term? I know it is an orchestrated bunch of **** to scare the players into accepting their terms, but it is beyond unprofessional.

Get back in the room and keep bargaining instead of having this circus sideshow and upsetting fans more. People are beyond livid and they pull a ridiculous stunt like this evening? They closed the gap on all of these other major issues quickly, then throw up their hands over term and have a meltdown because of it?

That is simply unreal...

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12-07-2012, 12:17 AM
  #255
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But there's no cba. So there are no players right? ..I know its not a strike.

I just don't get why if players don't want to play in your league, then you have to just sit idle.

But whatever, its too deep for me I guess. I'll just stick to the nfl for now. Seeing as how I can actually watch those games, and when their agreements are up they just make new ones.

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12-07-2012, 12:41 AM
  #256
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
So what I heard was right...

Why in the hell would Bettman get up there and cause a scene like that, over term? I know it is an orchestrated bunch of **** to scare the players into accepting their terms, but it is beyond unprofessional.

Get back in the room and keep bargaining instead of having this circus sideshow and upsetting fans more. People are beyond livid and they pull a ridiculous stunt like this evening? They closed the gap on all of these other major issues quickly, then throw up their hands over term and have a meltdown because of it?

That is simply unreal...
Betteman is upset because he has made clear to the union that 5/7 contacts is no longer negotiable. It's as far as he can get his owners to go, which is understandable IMO given the insurance issue and competitive balance problems long-term cap circumventing contracts create.

Additionally, it sounds like he and Burckle sold the BOG on offering more "make-whole$" to get more years on the CBA which should benefit everybody given how CBA negotiations have gone in recent years.

It's one for the other, except the PA said "so long, and thanks for all the fish"....

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12-07-2012, 12:44 AM
  #257
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
So what I heard was right...

Why in the hell would Bettman get up there and cause a scene like that, over term? I know it is an orchestrated bunch of **** to scare the players into accepting their terms, but it is beyond unprofessional.

Get back in the room and keep bargaining instead of having this circus sideshow and upsetting fans more. People are beyond livid and they pull a ridiculous stunt like this evening? They closed the gap on all of these other major issues quickly, then throw up their hands over term and have a meltdown because of it?

That is simply unreal...
If it was all Bettman then why were Burkle and the other owners involved so upset. There's more to it than that weak trib article. I'm sure there will be some good summaries tomorrow.

Regarding the CBA length, I'd rather lose an entire season+ than have them agree to a 5 or 6 year CBA.

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12-07-2012, 02:15 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
So what I heard was right...

Why in the hell would Bettman get up there and cause a scene like that, over term? I know it is an orchestrated bunch of **** to scare the players into accepting their terms, but it is beyond unprofessional.

Get back in the room and keep bargaining instead of having this circus sideshow and upsetting fans more. People are beyond livid and they pull a ridiculous stunt like this evening? They closed the gap on all of these other major issues quickly, then throw up their hands over term and have a meltdown because of it?

That is simply unreal...
Owners wanted contract term limits and the CBA to last a good while so we can avoid this circus for quite awhile. I don't think they're being unreasonable.

It's pretty obvious what set the owners off. Them having a deal Tuesday night. Then Fehr comes back into it and promises the players more concessions from the owners. It backfired on them.

This mess is on the PA now. Lock them the **** out.

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12-07-2012, 03:21 AM
  #259
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Scottie Upshall really, really needs to stop tweeting.
What did he say?

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12-07-2012, 03:46 AM
  #260
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What did he say?
https://twitter.com/ScottieUpshall

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Folks, the NHL hasn't drawn a line in the sand. The NHL wants ALL the sand.
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There's no pressure yet on the owners to lose this year, that's why they still treat us like Cattle. They'll need a partner come January.
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Plain and simple these owners think they can break us apart. GOOD LUCK! We r stronger than we've ever been and r behind Fehr %100.

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12-07-2012, 03:58 AM
  #261
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12-07-2012, 04:20 AM
  #262
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Bye-bye li'l sea-eason.

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12-07-2012, 04:39 AM
  #263
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The NFL had a 10 year CBA, why can't the NHL go to 8?

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12-07-2012, 05:52 AM
  #264
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Bye-bye li'l sea-eason.
At this point I know it is selfish but I hope so. I want my season ticket money back from the Coyotes. I will not be attending any games nor paying for NHL Center Ice.

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12-07-2012, 06:01 AM
  #265
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Lost revenue to this point essentially makes it a no-brainer for the owners to lockout a full season, and it would be foolish to sign a deal at this point if they don't get what they "need."

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12-07-2012, 06:23 AM
  #266
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Lost revenue to this point essentially makes it a no-brainer for the owners to lockout a full season, and it would be foolish to sign a deal at this point if they don't get what they "need."
Yeah from the owners stand point it just doesn't make sense for them too.

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12-07-2012, 07:37 AM
  #267
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Go form a drum circle, Zuccotti Upshall >.<

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Old
12-07-2012, 08:18 AM
  #268
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Haven't been on this board in a long time, but I'm really shocked. How is everyone so pro-ownership?

Many of us, myself included were pro-player all the way when this started because NHL leadership didn't lead during the summer, didn't start negotiations early enough and started out with two horrific low-ball offers when they did start. THey intended for there to be a lockout as their main pressure point from the start. So some blame is theirs.

However in the last month, and particularly this week, their side really came around, stopped playing games and offered the players nearly ALL of the things that were important to them. Instead of accepting, the players (Fehr) played the moving target game, which is just as toxic in negotiations as starting with a low-ball offer and acting all hard-nosed about it when you know it's not the best you can do.

This thing ended yesterday over pension details and term of the CBA, basically. That is pathetic.

The NHL had agreed to let the players work their way down to 50% revenue over the next few years and stay at 50%.

The NHL had agreed to $300M worth of "make whole" payments to ease the transition.

The NHL had agreed to keep the existing UFA and RFA eligibility rules.

The NHL agreed to extend the 5 year contract maximum to 7 years for home teams singing UFAs.

The NHL agreed to the amount of revenue sharing the players wanted.



All they were asking for, was not more than 5% change in value from year to year on a contract (hardly a big concession by players and important for avoiding back-diving, cap-circumventing contracts), and not more than 5 year deals for UFAs going to new teams, and the new definition of HRR (which was agreed to weeks ago). That's it basically.

And Fehr turned his players against the process because at that moment, with those non-hard-liner owners in the room... he sensed he could GET IT ALL. Period. It's going to blow up in his face, and it's already blown up in our faces.

The owners and Bettman did all the right things this week, and they were turned away. There is no more room to be on the players' side at this point. They walked away from a very good deal, better in fact than what most players in other sports get short of contract length. My prediction is the next offer they get is going to be 50% minus all of the things the league was willing to give this week. And if the season ends and this goes into next year, the players won't even get that 50%. And they'll deserve whatever lowball offer they get at that point.

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12-07-2012, 08:48 AM
  #269
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I'm still totally confident the deal is signed soon and we have hockey by the 1st. Totally confident.

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12-07-2012, 08:54 AM
  #270
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I'm still totally confident the deal is signed soon and we have hockey by the 1st. Totally confident.
I want hockey back as much as anyone. But I'm not even involved in the process, and I have the urge to lock the players out for the season. Can't imagine how pissed the owners are right now.

I hope permanent damage is done. Certain sponsors don't come back. Money for their first class treatment and ridiculous contracts dries up. The league shrinks, and many of them are out of an NHL job.

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12-07-2012, 09:09 AM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Many of us, myself included were pro-player all the way when this started because NHL leadership didn't lead during the summer, didn't start negotiations early enough and started out with two horrific low-ball offers when they did start. THey intended for there to be a lockout as their main pressure point from the start. So some blame is theirs.

However in the last month, and particularly this week, their side really came around, stopped playing games and offered the players nearly ALL of the things that were important to them. Instead of accepting, the players (Fehr) played the moving target game, which is just as toxic in negotiations as starting with a low-ball offer and acting all hard-nosed about it when you know it's not the best you can do.

This thing ended yesterday over pension details and term of the CBA, basically. That is pathetic.

The NHL had agreed to let the players work their way down to 50% revenue over the next few years and stay at 50%.

The NHL had agreed to $300M worth of "make whole" payments to ease the transition.

The NHL had agreed to keep the existing UFA and RFA eligibility rules.

The NHL agreed to extend the 5 year contract maximum to 7 years for home teams singing UFAs.

The NHL agreed to the amount of revenue sharing the players wanted.



All they were asking for, was not more than 5% change in value from year to year on a contract (hardly a big concession by players and important for avoiding back-diving, cap-circumventing contracts), and not more than 5 year deals for UFAs going to new teams, and the new definition of HRR (which was agreed to weeks ago). That's it basically.

And Fehr turned his players against the process because at that moment, with those non-hard-liner owners in the room... he sensed he could GET IT ALL. Period. It's going to blow up in his face, and it's already blown up in our faces.

The owners and Bettman did all the right things this week, and they were turned away. There is no more room to be on the players' side at this point. They walked away from a very good deal, better in fact than what most players in other sports get short of contract length. My prediction is the next offer they get is going to be 50% minus all of the things the league was willing to give this week. And if the season ends and this goes into next year, the players won't even get that 50%. And they'll deserve whatever lowball offer they get at that point.
Captain that is an excellent summary of how we got here.

I will say however that as much as he makes my teeth hurt, Fehr is no dummy. Unless he has his own "separate from the players agenda", my money is on him having the players signed to yesterday's deal plus a tiny bit more before Xmas.

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12-07-2012, 09:28 AM
  #272
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Many of us, myself included were pro-player all the way when this started because NHL leadership didn't lead during the summer, didn't start negotiations early enough and started out with two horrific low-ball offers when they did start. THey intended for there to be a lockout as their main pressure point from the start. So some blame is theirs.

However in the last month, and particularly this week, their side really came around, stopped playing games and offered the players nearly ALL of the things that were important to them. Instead of accepting, the players (Fehr) played the moving target game, which is just as toxic in negotiations as starting with a low-ball offer and acting all hard-nosed about it when you know it's not the best you can do.

This thing ended yesterday over pension details and term of the CBA, basically. That is pathetic.

The NHL had agreed to let the players work their way down to 50% revenue over the next few years and stay at 50%.

The NHL had agreed to $300M worth of "make whole" payments to ease the transition.

The NHL had agreed to keep the existing UFA and RFA eligibility rules.

The NHL agreed to extend the 5 year contract maximum to 7 years for home teams singing UFAs.

The NHL agreed to the amount of revenue sharing the players wanted.



All they were asking for, was not more than 5% change in value from year to year on a contract (hardly a big concession by players and important for avoiding back-diving, cap-circumventing contracts), and not more than 5 year deals for UFAs going to new teams, and the new definition of HRR (which was agreed to weeks ago). That's it basically.

And Fehr turned his players against the process because at that moment, with those non-hard-liner owners in the room... he sensed he could GET IT ALL. Period. It's going to blow up in his face, and it's already blown up in our faces.

The owners and Bettman did all the right things this week, and they were turned away. There is no more room to be on the players' side at this point. They walked away from a very good deal, better in fact than what most players in other sports get short of contract length. My prediction is the next offer they get is going to be 50% minus all of the things the league was willing to give this week. And if the season ends and this goes into next year, the players won't even get that 50%. And they'll deserve whatever lowball offer they get at that point.
Great summary, but you made one mistake, IMO. The owners didn't do all the right things this week, they made a crucial mistake, they tried to bully the PA into a "take it or leave it" deal. When you are THAT CLOSE to a deal, you don't do that. Especially not when the gap is 1-3 years in contract limits and 2 years on CBA term. Fehr was right on one thing yesterday, they WERE very very close to a deal. Why the owners decided to play hard ball here, I don't really understand. They could probably have had their 5% rule in there if they had agreed to a 8-year contract limit. They COULD have had a 9-year CBA with an opt close at the 7-year mark.

These are all little things and they decided to play hard ball based on them, not a smart move IMO! Especially when these things aren't related AT ALL to the core economics. They all are systemic issues. It won't cost them more money if they don't get 5-year contract limits. It won't cost them more money if they don't have a 10-year CBA. The players did some movement, the owners didn't want to negociate on these points. They tried to catch the players off guard and they failed. So, I repeat, the owners didn't do ALL the right things. They did great things, they moved on key issues, but they weren't willing to make a deal on what I consider to be pretty minor details. You don't want back-diving contracts? Pretty simple, don't offer them. Oh, and the players' proposition also took care of that issue, not in the way the owners wanted, but they could have continue to negociate because, conceptually speaking, they weren't that far off from the players on these systemic issues.

That being said, Fehr's tactic of trying to turn the public against Bettman and co by announcing he thought they were very close to a deal was an absolute dick move. He knew he would be turned down and he played Bettman for a fool by going public as soon as the meeting was over. I think Bettman's frustration mostly comes from that. Fehr is a bully and his tactics are slowing the process down tremendously, we should have reached the point we are at now (meaning the things that are/were on the table not the stalemate) months ago. But Fehr wanted to play it tough and it is going to cost him, the players, the owners and most importantly all of those who have low-income jobs related to the NHL a TON of money.

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12-07-2012, 09:44 AM
  #273
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They did great things, they moved on key issues, but they weren't willing to make a deal on what I consider to be pretty minor details.
But according to Daly and Bettman those are not minor details. They have moved pretty far on several issues, time for the PA to give.

10 year CBA? LOVE it! 5/7 year contracts? Really like that too. "Outside the system money"? Bad idea, glad they said no way.

I think the PA are the ones that screwed up so many ways yesterday. Starting with not listening when the owners said give us a "Yes or no". Not counter, "Yes or no". Then Fehr pulling the new conference ********? Yeah, he just pushed more owners into the "Hawk" camp.

The PA thinks they can get "a little more"? Shut down the season and crush them. I have no sympathy for the players any more. If the rank and file can't see 5/7 is no big deal to them, outside the system money really will not effect them to much, and a 10 year CBA is good for everyone then they deserve the beating I hope they have coming.

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12-07-2012, 09:59 AM
  #274
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Fehr's behavior pretty much went right into "populist campaigning politician" territory.

Massive turn-off.

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12-07-2012, 10:03 AM
  #275
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I want to see hockey as much as the next person, but if my boss asked me to roll back my salary, and limit my potential contract terms (i.e. job security), just because he had the power to do so, I'd put up a fight too.
It is intensely annoying when someone compares every day working class people and pay-cuts to wealthy millionaires who will see their share of (what used to be) a 3.3 bil. business cut to 50%. Perhaps it would behoove you to go back through the previous threads and understand why so many of us are pro-owner in this debacle.

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