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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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Old
12-07-2012, 11:23 PM
  #326
SHOOTANDSCORE
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Some good stuff on https://twitter.com/JoshRimerHockey

Quote:
Rob Scuderi on What outcome would b if players voted w/ Make whole now $300 MIL, "I think guys would be open to the 300 million make whole.'

Keep in mind, this is JR we are talking about.
Quote:
Roenick, "Don Fehr better learn to represent the players more responsibly."

"Don Fehr should be telling the players right now to sign the deal!!"

"I don't know what's Fehr is trying to do and what he's telling these players, but they are going to lose a lot of money!"

"The players just better be careful and make sure that Donald Fehr has their best interest in mind."

"I'm a players guy, & I'll always be a players guy, but I think the deal on the table is worth signing and that's my opinion."

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12-07-2012, 11:31 PM
  #327
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why not call out Fehr and the PA for their hypocritical tactics as well?





Quick on the draw Shoot! Though JR is the same guy who made some questionable comments last lockout so makes you wonder about him saying he'd be in the room yelling again.


Walsh's response :

“@walsha: Roenick a players guy? He's a Roenick guy. @JoshRimerHockey @Russostrib”


Russo:

Recchi, Roenick go against union talking points and @walsha trashes them. #NHLPA lockout playbook/scare tactic to keep players in line


Makes me wonder, does Russo know some players who are keeping quiet?


Last edited by KaylaJ: 12-07-2012 at 11:39 PM.
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Old
12-07-2012, 11:45 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
why not call out Fehr and the PA for their hypocritical tactics as well?
There is nothing hypocritical about pushing hard for the best deal for your side. Each side is doing that and both sides are being stupid, but I don't recall Fehr ever calling out Bettman for something he himself had done.

If you can find a quote like that, don't hesitate to post it.

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12-07-2012, 11:55 PM
  #329
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There's so much unintended irony in Walsh's tweets that they are almost funny. Almost.

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@walsha

NHLPA Scare tactics? What kool aid did you drink? Do you wave NHL pom poms while you tweet? @Russostrib #NHLPA

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12-08-2012, 12:04 AM
  #330
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I don't recall saying it was hypocritical for the PA to push for a good deal of their own. I did say the PA has had their own hypocritical tactics as well. They sure were upset when the league (being hypocritical themselves) put the proposal up on its website saying things should stay private, but Fehr def talked quite a bit about details yesterday no? They talk about wanting "good faith" and how upset they get when the league tries to break them saying Fehr has them united, but don't seem to have a problem calling out Bettman, Jacobs, and whoever they're onto now.

I have no problem admitting that both sides are talking not from their mouths but probably elsewhere (realistically we don't know what the PA wants, how close the two sides are, or even what happened yesterday) and fiddling while Rome burns. But I'm not going to act like one side are angels.


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12-08-2012, 08:08 AM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaylaJ View Post
I don't recall saying it was hypocritical for the PA to push for a good deal of their own. I did say the PA has had their own hypocritical tactics as well. They sure were upset when the league (being hypocritical themselves) put the proposal up on its website saying things should stay private, but Fehr def talked quite a bit about details yesterday no? They talk about wanting "good faith" and how upset they get when the league tries to break them saying Fehr has them united, but don't seem to have a problem calling out Bettman, Jacobs, and whoever they're onto now.

I have no problem admitting that both sides are talking not from their mouths but probably elsewhere (realistically we don't know what the PA wants, how close the two sides are, or even what happened yesterday) and fiddling while Rome burns. But I'm not going to act like one side are angels.
Both sides have acted like fools, but the owners have to realize that Fehr is going to push until he has the best offer for his side and he isn't going anywhere. I just find it comical people thought Bettman gave this heroic, impassioned speech, when in reality he stood up there and lied once again and acted like a hypocrite. I know we have fans who weren't around for the previous two lockouts, but Bettman did the same exact thing then as well.

As I keep saying, Bettman has his little lockout playbook and he keeps running it, even when it's obvious it won't work.

I don't understand how Burkle and Tannenbaum can tell us they are staying until a deal gets done, then they run out after three damn days. Both sides made all of this progress and they literally run away when Fehr comes back. These are great business minds and they didn't anticipate the players would ask for Fehr to come back to close things off? The players aren't deal closers, the fans and media know that, but the owners didn't see it coming? Right.

Bettman knows full well that Fehr did the exact same thing as he did seven years ago, but instead of being cool and calm, he throws his little tantrum. There is no reason the league couldn't have countered with 6 and 8 on contracts if the PA took 10 with an option at 8 on CBA length.

And certain people wonder why I think Bettman is a piss poor leader.

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12-08-2012, 08:17 AM
  #332
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Maybe because Burkle and Tannenbaum realized they were dealing with a complete toolbag and there was no hope of getting a deal done and left out of frustration. Their comments after the fact would seemingly indicate that. Sick of defenses of Fehr, the man has no track record but that of scorched earth in any sport he's involved with. His victories hurt us the fans and I just can't grasp how any hockey fan can back that guy as he's working his butt off to ruin our sport. You can dislike Bettman but at least his positions are ones that benefit us fans.

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12-08-2012, 08:29 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Maybe because Burkle and Tannenbaum realized they were dealing with a complete toolbag and there was no hope of getting a deal done and left out of frustration. Their comments after the fact would seemingly indicate that. Sick of defenses of Fehr, the man has no track record but that of scorched earth in any sport he's involved with. His victories hurt us the fans and I just can't grasp how any hockey fan can back that guy as he's working his butt off to ruin our sport. You can dislike Bettman but at least his positions are ones that benefit us fans.
Pay attention.

I'm not backing Fehr and even said three times now I want the owners to win on term. I'm afraid of what he is capable of if Bettman and the owners don't smarten up. Fehr mentioned several times a cap system stymies player salaries and has no place in professional sports.

If he pushes decertification and the season gets canceled, he IS going after the cap. He is itching to do it, it is obvious by his comments. So if the owners and Bettman want to die on their "anthill", they are fools.

There is no reason in hell they can't further negotiate the year to year variance and add another year or two to contract terms. The players don't give a **** about the CBA term... It is just a bargaining chip.

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12-08-2012, 09:13 AM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Pay attention.

I'm not backing Fehr and even said three times now I want the owners to win on term. I'm afraid of what he is capable of if Bettman and the owners don't smarten up. Fehr mentioned several times a cap system stymies player salaries and has no place in professional sports.

If he pushes decertification and the season gets canceled, he IS going after the cap. He is itching to do it, it is obvious by his comments. So if the owners and Bettman want to die on their "anthill", they are fools.

There is no reason in hell they can't further negotiate the year to year variance and add another year or two to contract terms. The players don't give a **** about the CBA term... It is just a bargaining chip.
We are paying attention Jiggy. And what we see is you talking out of both sides of your mouth, constantly criticizing the NHL leadership, and only *****ing about the PA when someone calls you out.

Then it's right back to "bash the NHL leadership".

You can't have it both ways man. At least not without some of us commenting on it.

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12-08-2012, 09:25 AM
  #335
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Why does he need to bash the PA when virtually everyone else has that covered? And he's made it clear he doesn't disagree with many of those criticisms. Is it that troubling that he's breaking the board's anti-union narrative and side-taking reductions?

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12-08-2012, 09:31 AM
  #336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallatin View Post
We are paying attention Jiggy. And what we see is you talking out of both sides of your mouth, constantly criticizing the NHL leadership, and only *****ing about the PA when someone calls you out.

Then it's right back to "bash the NHL leadership".

You can't have it both ways man. At least not without some of us commenting on it.
Yep, can't stand the whole pretending to be objective when the words typed indicate otherwise.

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12-08-2012, 09:32 AM
  #337
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Both sides have pulled **** moves. I'd say Fehr intentionally misleading the media this week while trying to renegotiate after a deal looked to be in place is worse than Bettman showing some emotion. If the players really want to play, a deal was there. The owners don't need a season, especially one where they're not getting anywhere near 100% of sponsorship money.

I hope the owners make one last pitch, but it's just common sense that the deal is going to get worse as fewer games are possible.

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12-08-2012, 09:45 AM
  #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gallatin View Post
We are paying attention Jiggy. And what we see is you talking out of both sides of your mouth, constantly criticizing the NHL leadership, and only *****ing about the PA when someone calls you out.

Then it's right back to "bash the NHL leadership".

You can't have it both ways man. At least not without some of us commenting on it.
I don't want it both ways. I want leadership from Bettman and the owners. I don't expect Fehr to care for the game. He has one job and that is to get a good deal for the PA, then he walks. He doesn't give a **** what he leaves behind.

I've said over and over again I expect more out of Bettman and the owners than the PA. If you can't understand that, I'm not sure what to tell you. They have a responsibility to protect the integrity of this league.

I've said since last year when Fehr was named PA leader, that the owners and Bettman hopefully don't follow the same script as they did with BG because it will lead to disaster. Then they of course do it anyway.

If you or anyone else is naive enough to think Fehr gives two left balls for this sport, I have a bridge you may want to look into buying. Bettman has a responsibility to protect this sport and keep things from getting out of hand.

Just like Goodell and the NFL owners did with both unions. Things were a ****** mess with the NFLPA and it looked like the NFL season was in jeopardy, but Goodell and the owners did what they always do - protect the shield and got a deal done.

When the replacement refs embarrassed the NFL, Goodell and the owners hammered out a deal and the refs were back on the field three days later.

We don't have that kind of leadership in the NHL and you expect me to think it is ok to watch Bettman and the owners tarnish the league twenty years running, and be cool with it?

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12-08-2012, 09:48 AM
  #339
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Originally Posted by Gooch View Post
Yep, can't stand the whole pretending to be objective when the words typed indicate otherwise.
It's quite possible to be objective, but expect actual leadership from the league, not childish games when they don't get what they want.

It isn't my problem if you expect so little from Bettman and the owners and deem their behavior as acceptable.

I expect leadership from the league, but see nothing but games and stupidity. I already expected games and silliness from Fehr.

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12-08-2012, 10:54 AM
  #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I don't want it both ways. I want leadership from Bettman and the owners. I don't expect Fehr to care for the game. He has one job and that is to get a good deal for the PA, then he walks. He doesn't give a **** what he leaves behind.

I've said over and over again I expect more out of Bettman and the owners than the PA. If you can't understand that, I'm not sure what to tell you. They have a responsibility to protect the integrity of this league.

I've said since last year when Fehr was named PA leader, that the owners and Bettman hopefully don't follow the same script as they did with BG because it will lead to disaster. Then they of course do it anyway.

If you or anyone else is naive enough to think Fehr gives two left balls for this sport, I have a bridge you may want to look into buying. Bettman has a responsibility to protect this sport and keep things from getting out of hand.

Just like Goodell and the NFL owners did with both unions. Things were a ****** mess with the NFLPA and it looked like the NFL season was in jeopardy, but Goodell and the owners did what they always do - protect the shield and got a deal done.

When the replacement refs embarrassed the NFL, Goodell and the owners hammered out a deal and the refs were back on the field three days later.

We don't have that kind of leadership in the NHL and you expect me to think it is ok to watch Bettman and the owners tarnish the league twenty years running, and be cool with it?
And some people would argue that insisting on an economic model that allows the average team to make money, and eliminates the ability of big market teams to game the system through long-term front-loaded contracts is protecting the integrity of the game Jiggy....

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12-08-2012, 11:17 AM
  #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I don't want it both ways. I want leadership from Bettman and the owners. I don't expect Fehr to care for the game. He has one job and that is to get a good deal for the PA, then he walks. He doesn't give a **** what he leaves behind.

I've said over and over again I expect more out of Bettman and the owners than the PA. If you can't understand that, I'm not sure what to tell you. They have a responsibility to protect the integrity of this league.

I've said since last year when Fehr was named PA leader, that the owners and Bettman hopefully don't follow the same script as they did with BG because it will lead to disaster. Then they of course do it anyway.

If you or anyone else is naive enough to think Fehr gives two left balls for this sport, I have a bridge you may want to look into buying. Bettman has a responsibility to protect this sport and keep things from getting out of hand.

Just like Goodell and the NFL owners did with both unions. Things were a ****** mess with the NFLPA and it looked like the NFL season was in jeopardy, but Goodell and the owners did what they always do - protect the shield and got a deal done.

When the replacement refs embarrassed the NFL, Goodell and the owners hammered out a deal and the refs were back on the field three days later.

We don't have that kind of leadership in the NHL and you expect me to think it is ok to watch Bettman and the owners tarnish the league twenty years running, and be cool with it?
and I think that is part of the problem. There's going to be a breaking point with the players, especially with the fringe AHL-NHL/bottom 6/veteran players in the final years of their career who are no longer (or never were) making seven figures. As bad as it sounds, Bettman knows it, and I think some of the players are beginning to realize it.

That's not me taking sides, that's just the effect of the lockout.

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12-08-2012, 11:23 AM
  #342
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And some people would argue that insisting on an economic model that allows the average team to make money, and eliminates the ability of big market teams to game the system through long-term front-loaded contracts is protecting the integrity of the game Jiggy....
Again, I don't know what else to say except - pay attention. I get accused of some agenda when the irony is, some of you are so anti-pa you lose all sense of reason and read only what you want.

I've agreed the owners have a right to ask for some of the concessions they have. My biggest problem was honoring the current contracts and I felt where they moved with the "make whole" is fair and totally understand their desire for term on both issues.

If you read the breakdown in the Toronto Star, you will see they have only two major issues left: CBA length and contract length.

Anyone with half a brain can see there is some wiggle room for variance and years for contracts. This could of been negotiated without compromising what the owners want, and moving a little towards the players as a show of good faith. Then I have little doubt the players would give them term on the CBA.

Instead, the league once again said they want a "yes" or "no" answer and left no room for negotiating. They did their little power play (once again)... Threatened to pull the offer (again)... And pouted off and walked away from the table (again). Bettman gets on his little stage and does his tired old act many of us have seen before and Daly refuses to call the PA.

Now as Crosby said "the trust is all gone" and he won't return to negotiate himself, etc.

And you call this quality leadership from the league?

Get real Gallatin. You think the NFL would of blown this? And don't give me "dah Fehr". Smith, the head of the NFLPA is so shady you can't even see his ass. Things got so bad with him and Goodell they almost came to blows.

It's all about the leaders behind each league and the NHL has botched this so bad it is ridiculous.

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12-08-2012, 11:40 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Again, I don't know what else to say except - pay attention. I get accused of some agenda when the irony is, some of you are so anti-pa you lose all sense of reason and read only what you want.

I've agreed the owners have a right to ask for some of the concessions they have. My biggest problem was honoring the current contracts and I felt where they moved with the "make whole" is fair and totally understand their desire for term on both issues.

If you read the breakdown in the Toronto Star, you will see they have only two major issues left: CBA length and contract length.

Anyone with half a brain can see there is some wiggle room for variance and years for contracts. This could of been negotiated without compromising what the owners want, and moving a little towards the players as a show of good faith. Then I have little doubt the players would give them term on the CBA.

Instead, the league once again said they want a "yes" or "no" answer and left no room for negotiating. They did their little power play (once again)... Threatened to pull the offer (again)... And pouted off and walked away from the table (again). Bettman gets on his little stage and does his tired old act many of us have seen before and Daly refuses to call the PA.

Now as Crosby said "the trust is all gone" and he won't return to negotiate himself, etc.

And you call this quality leadership from the league?

Get real Gallatin. You think the NFL would of blown this? And don't give me "dah Fehr". Smith, the head of the NFLPA is so shady you can't even see his ass. Things got so bad with him and Goodell they almost came to blows.

It's all about the leaders behind each league and the NHL has botched this so bad it is ridiculous.
No, there aren't just CBA term and term limit as points of contention.

When 1 person says "I'll give you A, B, and C, in exchange of D, E, and F" but you don't give them D,E, and F, you arent in agreement on A,B, or C.

The owners already moved quite a bit in the players direction. They added nearly $300 million to make whole, they dropped their demands on UFA, Arbitration and ELC. They allowed players to sign 7 year contracts with their own team. They worked with them on Pensions. All of that was contingent on the NHL getting the terms it really wanted in other areas.

There will be a time where a line in the sand will be drawn or else the other side can just keep on marginally moving all the issues. Not to mention, the NHLPA creating new issues of Compliance buyouts and escrow limits, both designed to siphon even more revenue (on top of make whole) outside the 50/50 split.

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12-08-2012, 11:47 AM
  #344
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No, there aren't just CBA term and term limit as points of contention.

When 1 person says "I'll give you A, B, and C, in exchange of D, E, and F" but you don't give them D,E, and F, you arent in agreement on A,B, or C.

The owners already moved quite a bit in the players direction. They added nearly $300 million to make whole, they dropped their demands on UFA, Arbitration and ELC. They allowed players to sign 7 year contracts with their own team. They worked with them on Pensions. All of that was contingent on the NHL getting the terms it really wanted in other areas.

There will be a time where a line in the sand will be drawn or else the other side can just keep on marginally moving all the issues. Not to mention, the NHLPA creating new issues of Compliance buyouts and escrow limits, both designed to siphon even more revenue (on top of make whole) outside the 50/50 split.
Except in the last agreement the players already had A,B,C,D,E and F. So the owners aren't 'giving' anything, they're just agreeing not to take as much as they originally wanted.

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12-08-2012, 11:58 AM
  #345
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Except in the last agreement the players already had A,B,C,D,E and F. So the owners aren't 'giving' anything, they're just agreeing not to take as much as they originally wanted.
The last CBA is history and the NHL players won't play another game in the NHL if they just want to use it as a baseline. It was unbalanced to the player side, the NHL is trying to adjust that balance. Its as simple as that.

A fair deal is now on the table, a deal many here have predicted (stop demands on contractual rights except for the ones dealing with back-diving contracts and insurance issues, maybe a slight increase in Make Whole (they went more than just a 'slight increase' ) The owners have offered the Players the most player friendly CBA in NA capped sports, better than both the CBA the NBA players got, and NFL players got. Yet, you think the Owners are going to keep caving in and giving them an even better CBA? NHL Players bring their owners the least revenue and profit, yet they honestly expect a CBA that's so much more favourable to them than all other NA sports?

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12-08-2012, 12:08 PM
  #346
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I think most of the player comments since the other day are 100% spin, including Sid. The only one that's not spin is Scuds'. If they'd put it to a vote this might be over right now but Fehr wants more. Simple as that. It's a sad day when Jeremy Roenik is a voice of reason. He's right; they should've signed the deal.

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12-08-2012, 12:20 PM
  #347
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You ALWAYS negotiate off of the last deal. That's the way negotiating works. Sick of this "the last CBA is over" nonsense, grow up.

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12-08-2012, 12:20 PM
  #348
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I think most of the player comments since the other day are 100% spin, including Sid. The only one that's not spin is Scuds'. If they'd put it to a vote this might be over right now but Fehr wants more. Simple as that. It's a sad day when Jeremy Roenik is a voice of reason. He's right; they should've signed the deal.
I don't know if I read that in Scuderi's comment (or at least the one that I saw, maybe it's been expanded). To me, he's just saying the Players would be ok with the $300 millioin. Doesn't say about the other issues though (But I don't think I've seen all his comments)

But still, the comments from Adrian Dater that a player told him they were ready to play hockey again, until Fehr came in (Wed) and told them they could get more and to hold out. It also fits the narrative the owners gave that the tone and mood completely changed on Wednesday and why Burkle, TannenBaum, Chipik, etc didn't want to be in a room with D. Fehr.

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12-08-2012, 12:25 PM
  #349
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Anyone with half a brain can see there is some wiggle room for variance and years for contracts. This could of been negotiated without compromising what the owners want, and moving a little towards the players as a show of good faith. Then I have little doubt the players would give them term on the CBA.

Instead, the league once again said they want a "yes" or "no" answer and left no room for negotiating. They did their little power play (once again)... Threatened to pull the offer (again)... And pouted off and walked away from the table (again). Bettman gets on his little stage and does his tired old act many of us have seen before and Daly refuses to call the PA.
After sifting through the mountains of over-the-top rhetoric, I can't help but agree in a lot of respects. For the players, this lockout was personal from the beginning. So if the owners' last offer was truly the best they're willing to offer, that was a tremendous mistake. You have to give the players the last word in these negotiations. Make them feel like they've actually accomplished something, that in some way or another, they won these negotiations -- whether it's true or not. You can't present even the most beneficial offer to the players in a confrontational, take it or leave it, tone. This almost guarantees the players are going to react emotionally towards the tone rather than objectively towards the content.

Additionally, as Ron Hainsey (I believe) said the other day, the idea that the players were going to finalize a CBA without their leadership in the room is frankly ludicrous (Ludicrous speed... Go!). They made a ton of progress without Fehr and Bettman, as was the the intent of the strategy, but a bunch of athletes have no business closing an 8 or 10 year CBA without their professional representation in the room.

With all that being said, Donald Fehr has been nothing short of despicable throughout this process. The idea that he is honestly working at getting the players the best deal possible is laughable. The best deal for the players always was and always will be based on playing an 82 game schedule. And Fehr didn't start honestly negotiating until well past that point. He's in this for himself, and no one else. In fact, I'd be willing to bet he's looking for a shorter CBA length so he can go through one more NHL CBA negotiation before setting his sights on the NFL or NBA when their agreements expire. The man's a mercenary; nothing more, nothing less.

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12-08-2012, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Wu View Post
You ALWAYS negotiate off of the last deal. That's the way negotiating works. Sick of this the "last CBA is over" nonsense, grow up.
Negotiating works based on leverage. The last CBA will be referenced, and some things will be used for status quo. But the argument that "players must get something based on the last CBA in order to give a a concession based on the last CBA" is non-sense. The previous CBA was tilted towards the players, so it would be expected that owners aren't willing to trade concessions based off of it. You also look at comparables in the industry. Right now, the NHL is still offering the NHLPA the most friendly CBA in all of North American sports (you can make the argument that the MLB CBA is more player friendly, and I would agree for the stars, but overall, MLB players take home 40-45% of revenue while NHL players will be guaranteed 50%).


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