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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:12 AM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Losing your better players after their second contract sound fine to you?
Having a the max contract length 5 years would actually make it more likely that a team loses a top player at a young age since after their 2nd contract the player would be a UFA, having no more than 7 or 8 years in the league.

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12-09-2012, 01:46 AM
  #402
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
There was no closing deal being made at that point. It was put forth to them clear as day.

The owners were there for a simple yes or no and then Daly was to report to the office, and then things were to move whichever way the answer was.


Two owners and Daly in the room were not able to close a deal anymore than the players with S. Fehr.

A simple one word answer was all that was needed to move forward or they were still at status quo.
Actually, I believe that the MLB deal was done without Don Fehr in the room because he burned too many bridges with the owners. Steve Fehr was more than capable of handling things.

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12-09-2012, 03:50 AM
  #403
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http://triblive.com/mobile/m/msports...emieux-players

Seems Rossi got all the behind the scenes heading into the meetings this week from Pat Brisson. That, or he got a bit from Brisson and guessed the rest?

I will admit they were heading in the right direction but on that Wednesday night when they were breaking apart/getting back together, then Pension Payment became a sticking point, then Escrow Limits on the transition period came in, then the players didn't know what to do without Fehr.

Somewhere in that mess, Fehr told his neg. committee that they could get more and thats when talks broke down.

If it took that much effort to get the players 99million more in make whole(moderates selling a 10 yr CBA to the owners in exchange for it), i can't imagine what kind of effort would get the players anymore in this thing.

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12-09-2012, 04:34 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by SidTheKid8787 View Post
http://triblive.com/mobile/m/msports...emieux-players

Seems Rossi got all the behind the scenes heading into the meetings this week from Pat Brisson. That, or he got a bit from Brisson and guessed the rest?

I will admit they were heading in the right direction but on that Wednesday night when they were breaking apart/getting back together, then Pension Payment became a sticking point, then Escrow Limits on the transition period came in, then the players didn't know what to do without Fehr.

Somewhere in that mess, Fehr told his neg. committee that they could get more and thats when talks broke down.

If it took that much effort to get the players 99million more in make whole(moderates selling a 10 yr CBA to the owners in exchange for it), i can't imagine what kind of effort would get the players anymore in this thing.
99M more after the players have lost half a bilion in salaries... Complete fail.

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12-09-2012, 08:16 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by bambamcam4ever View Post
Having a the max contract length 5 years would actually make it more likely that a team loses a top player at a young age since after their 2nd contract the player would be a UFA, having no more than 7 or 8 years in the league.
Sure if you feel every single player is going to make the jump their very first year of their ELC, but is that the case?

No. The majority of the players will be in the AHL for at least 2 years with some call ups. Not all of the better players are what we all call future super stars or generational talent when picked.


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12-09-2012, 08:33 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
So your telling me you'd just sit there getting nothing done then. You'd sit there waiting for one thing and two totally opposites happen and you try and negotiate something you are completely not prepared for, or don't want to do?

Leadership is knowing when things are so out of whack, and it doesn't matter what you say or do, nothing is gonna get done. You leave.

I find it kind of repulsive you don't see the issue there. It's the biggest waste of time and the owners knew it.

The NHLPA and players pissed off their best help entrenched in the owners group.

NHLPA/players
I find it repulsive your anti-PA bias is so strong, that you buy into the league's pre-planned propaganda.

Crosby stuck his neck on the line and the league **** all over him. Go read about everything he did and how he stepped up to finish this thing. The biggest key is, he promised the players no deal would be made without Fehr. Read that a few times and let it sink in.

So when things got close, and we have ample evidence this was the case from the mouths on both sides, the players wanted Fehr back at the table. I have yet to hear any sound reason why this was an unreasonable request by the players.

The league has tried three times now to push Fehr out of the picture, never realizing it won't work. It's a stupid ****ing game they keep playing, which is dragging this out much longer than it should be.

You and your anti-PA buddies keep spewing the same rhetoric about how the league isn't going to let the PA force them into agreeing to something they don't want.

Look at the facts, which you don't seem too fond of doing. The owners said we want to stop backdiving contracts, but will give home teams 7 years. You do know the Wings started the whole backdiving BS, using home town discounts? This isn't an exclusive thing to the open market. So if you can give 7 years to the home team, you can at least move to 6 or 7 for FA and bump it to 8 for re-signs.

For the last time, as long as the variance percentage is low, the actual years don't matter as much unless we start having 12-15 year deals.

Your full of excuses for what the league did and you aren't looking at the actual facts of how they had room left to negotiate, but decided to stick to their tired ass playbook of trying to cut off the union head.

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12-09-2012, 10:05 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post

Crosby stuck his neck on the line and the league **** all over him. Go read about everything he did and how he stepped up to finish this thing. The biggest key is, he promised the players no deal would be made without Fehr. Read that a few times and let it sink in.

I'm not wasting my time on the rest of your stuff you throw on the wall and hope it sticks.


You mean just like the owners stuck their necks out and told the hardliners they'd like a try and give 90/100 million they didn't want to put up at all, and at some points wanted the entire thing off the table sooner?

This is a two way street here, and the players were ready to go into action, but their fine leader would rather stall than move forward. Not moving forward cost more money. Ya...some leader. I showed how you use yes with asking for "more."

No deal has been made without "DONALD ******* FEHR" whether he was in the room or not!

When the deal is "actually" being made final both Donald ******* Fehr & Gary ******* Bettman will most certainly be in the ******* room.


Let it sink in because you're battling a losing war.

You understand they said things would move pretty quickly once terms were agreed too in "principle" right? Well that was that point and the NHLPA lead by Donald ******* Fehr missed the boat. "AGAIN"

A simple yes but we want more (most likely make whole$) and we have a deal in principle. Everyone takes a break at that time and pow wows. The owners come back and set a meeting that day an hour or two or three later with "everyone" in the room ( this is crunch time a final deal will most likely happen) they're haggling out what most certainly is more make whole money added, (how much?) and most likely the owners will fall on that knife figuring it was not that bad as long as it wasn't a insane number, but we're talking about Fehr here, so who knows. I'd like to think the players take the reins from there on the amount just to make sure a deal is struck..

Who looks like the idiot here.

Donald Fehr.


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Old
12-09-2012, 10:19 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
Losing your better players after their second contract sound fine to you?
That's just life. You're going to lose them sooner or later if you can't convince them that you're a franchise worth staying.

Like I've said I see it as the longer this goes on the more Fehr "wins" as a labor negotiator & I don't think the players see that.

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12-09-2012, 10:27 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
That's just life. You're going to lose them sooner or later if you can't convince them that you're a franchise worth staying.

Like I've said I see it as the longer this goes on the more Fehr "wins" as a labor negotiator & I don't think the players see that.
The owners don't want that to be just life, and that's why those things are "the hill they'll die on."

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12-09-2012, 10:29 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Ugene Malkin View Post
I'm not wasting my time on the rest of your stuff you throw on the wall and hope it sticks.


You mean just like the owners stuck their necks out and told the hardliners they'd like a try and give 90/100 million they didn't want to put up at all, and at some points wanted the entire thing off the table sooner?

This is a two way street here, and the players were ready to go into action, but their fine leader would rather stall than move forward. Not moving forward cost more money. Ya...some leader. I showed how you use yes with asking for "more."

No deal has been made without "DONALD ******* FEHR" whether he was in the room or not!

When the deal is "actually" being made final both Donald ******* Fehr & Gary ******* Bettman will most certainly be in the ******* room.


Let it sink in because you're battling a losing war.

You understand they said things would move pretty quickly once terms were agreed too in "principle" right? Well that was that point and the NHLPA lead by Donald ******* Fehr missed the boat. "AGAIN"

A simple yes but we want more (most likely make whole$) and we have a deal in principle. Everyone takes a break at that time and pow wows. The owners come back and set a meeting that day an hour or two or three later with "everyone" in the room ( this is crunch time a final deal will most likely happen) they're haggling out what most certainly is more make whole money added, (how much?) and most likely the owners will fall on that knife figuring it was not that bad as long as it wasn't a insane number, but we're talking about Fehr here, so who knows. I'd like to think the players take the reins from there on the amount just to make sure a deal is struck..

Who looks like the idiot here.

Donald Fehr.

You continue to avoid the facts, to the point it has become comical.

- Miller, Crosby and Burkle ALL said a deal was close
- Crosby promised the players a deal would NOT be closed without Fehr
- The players had every right to ask for Fehr to be brought back to close things out
- The league's concern is backdiving contracts, but they offered seven years for re-signs
- The Wings started backdiving WITH re-signs
- The players wanted 8 years
- They are literally three years apart on length. Three.
- The other two issues are bargaining chips for contract length (not a fact, but obvious)
- The league has tried over and over to remove Fehr from these negotiations like they tried in 95 and 05 with BG
- The league had enough wiggle room to negotiate without compromising what they were trying to accomplish with contract length

No amount of excuses you make up will ever defend the league's predetermined actions to once again remove Fehr from the negotiation process.

They were close to a deal, but instead decided to pull another BS PP move and in the process **** all over Crosby, killed the trust they had built up, and further embarrassed the league.

Once again, not matter what nonsense you spew, that is atrocious leadership.

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12-09-2012, 10:32 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by eXile59 View Post
That's just life. You're going to lose them sooner or later if you can't convince them that you're a franchise worth staying.

Like I've said I see it as the longer this goes on the more Fehr "wins" as a labor negotiator & I don't think the players see that.
? It's more about not letting the large market clubs set the market rate that the smaller markets just can't keep up with. This has nothing to do with convincing them how worthy of a franchise you are, it's all about money and always will be.

I don't know how on earth the longer this goes the more Fehr wins, if anything it's the opposite. The financial bite will start to hit the players hard as will the reality of playing in inferior leagues at lesser pay should it continue on further. His legacy will be one who passed up a good deal only to wait longer and have the players settle for a lesser deal down the road. It's almost comical how these players seemingly cannot learn from history. At this point they've already lost more money than they'll be able to get back through negotiations, every additional game lost is just icing on that cake.

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12-09-2012, 10:56 AM
  #412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You continue to avoid the facts, to the point it has become comical.

- Miller, Crosby and Burkle ALL said a deal was close
- Crosby promised the players a deal would NOT be closed without Fehr
- The players had every right to ask for Fehr to be brought back to close things out
- The league's concern is backdiving contracts, but they offered seven years for re-signs
- The Wings started backdiving WITH re-signs
- The players wanted 8 years
- They are literally three years apart on length. Three.
- The other two issues are bargaining chips for contract length (not a fact, but obvious)
- The league has tried over and over to remove Fehr from these negotiations like they tried in 95 and 05 with BG
- The league had enough wiggle room to negotiate without compromising what they were trying to accomplish with contract length

No amount of excuses you make up will ever defend the league's predetermined actions to once again remove Fehr from the negotiation process.

They were close to a deal, but instead decided to pull another BS PP move and in the process **** all over Crosby, killed the trust they had built up, and further embarrassed the league.

Once again, not matter what nonsense you spew, that is atrocious leadership.
Jiggy.. you cannot forget some key things that happened this week. The players and owners with STEVE FEHR in the room agreed on the parameters of the deal. It was simple. You get A,B,C... and we won't take that from you. We want A, B, C on our side, too. Okay good.

If the owners would have put a proposal IGNORING the players, you'd be up in arms right now. So it's pretty clear what side you are on. If the owners would have ignored what the players wanted, I would have been pissed. Instead, they listened and put it on the CBA with the things they discussed they needed.

How is this hard to see? Fehr comes in and says "Fine.. we will take A, B, and C.... and now we want to negotiate yours, too." Oh really Fehr? That's now how it works. They bargained certain things or else the owners can come back and say the same damn thing... MEANING we aren't close to a deal.

The owners were blunt and went with what they discussed. Fehr and the gang did not do the same. No questions about it. It's as clear as day.

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Old
12-09-2012, 11:15 AM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I find it repulsive your anti-PA bias is so strong, that you buy into the league's pre-planned propaganda.

Crosby stuck his neck on the line and the league **** all over him. Go read about everything he did and how he stepped up to finish this thing. The biggest key is, he promised the players no deal would be made without Fehr. Read that a few times and let it sink in.

wow. holy we all can read the same sentence and interpet it differently.
Brisson:
Quote:
Never make that promise, Brisson advised.
Crosby said that to the players that he can't promise a deal would be made. That's because he is saying (under advise from the Brisson/Mario/Burkle trimuvirate) you can't make a promise to the player that if they go to the bargining table that a deal will absolutely happen.

Not that no deal can be made unless Fehr is there.
Totally different context.

Quote:
So when things got close, and we have ample evidence this was the case from the mouths on both sides, the players wanted Fehr back at the table. I have yet to hear any sound reason why this was an unreasonable request by the players.
Not unreasonable that the players felt lost in the wilderness of negotiations. But this was largely because Fehr was giving them disruptive advice. Which put them in conflict with the owners. It's not like Fehr wasn't involved. You know they were in constant contact with him. He started telling them to hold out for more, ample evidence of this from both sides. That led to conflict with the owners who thought they were bending over backwards to meet the requests the players made. The players are not passive aggressive ******** like Fehr so when they got blow back from carrying out his requests, of course they wanted him there.

Quote:
The league has tried three times now to push Fehr out of the picture, never realizing it won't work. It's a stupid ****ing game they keep playing, which is dragging this out much longer than it should be
Why is that? You say that it's because of a tried and true play book. (one which btw lead to the league exploding it's revenues and players getting paid more then ever in the history of the leage btw).

I say it's because Fehr has stonewalled the process and the owners actually, gasp, want to play hockey and don't want the product damaged long term.

Fehr could care less if the NHL never plays a game ever again. He thinks MLB is awesomely great! You really want the NHL to be modelled after MLB? Really?

How about if Fehr and the players start thinking about all the low paid employees that are the true victims of this. How can they look all those equipment managers, arena crew and so on that had a pretty crappy christmas this year with no pay. Esp if the season is lost and the players end up with less as well.

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Old
12-09-2012, 12:03 PM
  #414
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? It's more about not letting the large market clubs set the market rate that the smaller markets just can't keep up with. This has nothing to do with convincing them how worthy of a franchise you are, it's all about money and always will be.

I don't know how on earth the longer this goes the more Fehr wins, if anything it's the opposite. The financial bite will start to hit the players hard as will the reality of playing in inferior leagues at lesser pay should it continue on further. His legacy will be one who passed up a good deal only to wait longer and have the players settle for a lesser deal down the road. It's almost comical how these players seemingly cannot learn from history. At this point they've already lost more money than they'll be able to get back through negotiations, every additional game lost is just icing on that cake.
The longer he keeps them united & drags this out the harder of negotiator he looks like. How long he can keep them brain washed is a different question.

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12-09-2012, 01:09 PM
  #415
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The tempers in here are getting out of hand; everyone calm down. Let's keep this on track.


Last edited by Darth Vitale: 12-09-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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12-09-2012, 03:13 PM
  #416
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The tempers in here are getting out of hand; everyone calm down. Let's keep this on track.
Reminds me a little of our back & forth in Sept/Oct, just a touch meaner though.

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12-09-2012, 04:33 PM
  #417
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I'd say we're two pages away from going Red Panda on this.

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12-09-2012, 05:04 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Jiggy.. you cannot forget some key things that happened this week. The players and owners with STEVE FEHR in the room agreed on the parameters of the deal. It was simple. You get A,B,C... and we won't take that from you. We want A, B, C on our side, too. Okay good.

If the owners would have put a proposal IGNORING the players, you'd be up in arms right now. So it's pretty clear what side you are on. If the owners would have ignored what the players wanted, I would have been pissed. Instead, they listened and put it on the CBA with the things they discussed they needed.

How is this hard to see? Fehr comes in and says "Fine.. we will take A, B, and C.... and now we want to negotiate yours, too." Oh really Fehr? That's now how it works. They bargained certain things or else the owners can come back and say the same damn thing... MEANING we aren't close to a deal.

The owners were blunt and went with what they discussed. Fehr and the gang did not do the same. No questions about it. It's as clear as day.
Cole, the league continues to issue ultimatums and state there is no room left for negotiations. This is the third or fourth time they put an offer on the table, then threaten to pull it when the PA wants to keep negotiating.

It is like groundhogs day. The league flips out, walks away from the table, "pulls" their offer, then Daly and S. Fehr "get in touch" and the whole cycle starts over again. At what point will the league allow negotiations without trying to strong arm the union? Finishing a deal is always tough at the very end. They can't keep trying to avoid it and Fehr.

You can say whatever you will about past offers, but the offer Fehr brought on Thursday was reasonable. I wouldn't accept it if I was Bettman, but it only needed a few more tweaks, and a deal was there. Fehr put a couple of bargaining chips to leverage a year or two more for contract length... And the league blows up over it? Giving some on contract length is not going to change what the owners are fighting for.

You follow the NFL and we both know Smith was a total dick and the garbage he proposed was so bad I was laughing my ass off at times. Right up until the very end he was doing everything he could to piss off the owners and get every minor chip for the PA. But Goodell and the owners banged out a deal. That is the kind of leadership I want to see from the NHL.

This is a disgrace and Bettman and the owners have to end it - now! Give the PA an extra year or two and finish this.

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12-09-2012, 05:28 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by vikingGoalie View Post
wow. holy we all can read the same sentence and interpet it differently.
Brisson:

Crosby said that to the players that he can't promise a deal would be made. That's because he is saying (under advise from the Brisson/Mario/Burkle trimuvirate) you can't make a promise to the player that if they go to the bargining table that a deal will absolutely happen.

Not that no deal can be made unless Fehr is there.
Totally different context.
Crosby and Miller explained that the players were never going to close a deal without D. Fehr and that was understood among the players before they met with the owners.

It's obvious, but some people think Fehr was going to let his brother and players finish the deal, then he would sign it. Seriously?

Quote:
Not unreasonable that the players felt lost in the wilderness of negotiations. But this was largely because Fehr was giving them disruptive advice. Which put them in conflict with the owners. It's not like Fehr wasn't involved. You know they were in constant contact with him. He started telling them to hold out for more, ample evidence of this from both sides. That led to conflict with the owners who thought they were bending over backwards to meet the requests the players made. The players are not passive aggressive ******** like Fehr so when they got blow back from carrying out his requests, of course they wanted him there.
Burkle said they were down to the last few issues. It was totally justified for the players to want him there for the final push.

Fehr's latest offer is not unreasonable. There is no justification for why the league once again ran from the table.

Quote:
Why is that? You say that it's because of a tried and true play book. (one which btw lead to the league exploding it's revenues and players getting paid more then ever in the history of the leage btw).

I say it's because Fehr has stonewalled the process and the owners actually, gasp, want to play hockey and don't want the product damaged long term.

Fehr could care less if the NHL never plays a game ever again. He thinks MLB is awesomely great! You really want the NHL to be modelled after MLB? Really?

How about if Fehr and the players start thinking about all the low paid employees that are the true victims of this. How can they look all those equipment managers, arena crew and so on that had a pretty crappy christmas this year with no pay. Esp if the season is lost and the players end up with less as well.
A playbook that made the NHL the first NA sports league to lose an entire season and two months and counting of more missed games, making a mockery of the league, enraging fans and sponsors alike, and putting all of their progress at great risk?

Forgot that part I guess?

Fehr's job is to be a dick and difficult. The league needs to deal with it and stop losing their heads.

And yep, Fehr will step away when this mess is over and never watch a game or give two left balls about the sport. If he ****s things up all he can say is, oh well, sorry boys.

No big deal to him. The players will suffer and so will the owners. They are all connected and the damage they are doing HAS to be stopped by the league. They were right there and they ****ed it up over three years...

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12-09-2012, 05:46 PM
  #420
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Had not seen this posted yet in the thread. Rossi trying to piece together what happened last week.

http://triblive.com/mobile/m/msports...emieux-players

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12-09-2012, 05:59 PM
  #421
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So pretty much take that and apply the opposite to get a clear picture of what actually happened?

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12-09-2012, 06:09 PM
  #422
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I had a few drinks last night and when I opened the browser on my phone today I had a reply to this thread all queued up that was literally just the lyrics to Destiny's Child's "Bills Bills Bills".

Not sure what it was supposed to mean but it was probably pretty funny last night.

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12-09-2012, 06:27 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Cole, the league continues to issue ultimatums and state there is no room left for negotiations. This is the third or fourth time they put an offer on the table, then threaten to pull it when the PA wants to keep negotiating.

It is like groundhogs day. The league flips out, walks away from the table, "pulls" their offer, then Daly and S. Fehr "get in touch" and the whole cycle starts over again. At what point will the league allow negotiations without trying to strong arm the union? Finishing a deal is always tough at the very end. They can't keep trying to avoid it and Fehr.

You can say whatever you will about past offers, but the offer Fehr brought on Thursday was reasonable. I wouldn't accept it if I was Bettman, but it only needed a few more tweaks, and a deal was there. Fehr put a couple of bargaining chips to leverage a year or two more for contract length... And the league blows up over it? Giving some on contract length is not going to change what the owners are fighting for.

You follow the NFL and we both know Smith was a total dick and the garbage he proposed was so bad I was laughing my ass off at times. Right up until the very end he was doing everything he could to piss off the owners and get every minor chip for the PA. But Goodell and the owners banged out a deal. That is the kind of leadership I want to see from the NHL.

This is a disgrace and Bettman and the owners have to end it - now! Give the PA an extra year or two and finish this.
What you call an ultimatum, I call honest truth. There is NO chance in hell the PA should have done that. The NHL didn't come back and say "well **** it.. let's negotiate EVERYTHING again." They didn't do that.

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12-09-2012, 06:44 PM
  #424
Ugene Malkin
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The players were going to sign, Fehr stopped them, end of story.


But it's still the owners fault they didn't.

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12-09-2012, 07:32 PM
  #425
Mr Jiggyfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
What you call an ultimatum, I call honest truth. There is NO chance in hell the PA should have done that. The NHL didn't come back and say "well **** it.. let's negotiate EVERYTHING again." They didn't do that.
Once again I'll point out how Bettman did this very thing seven years ago, that you are criticizing Fehr for doing.

So basically it is once again take our offer or we walk away from the table. It doesn't matter that they were close to a deal, it matters that they show the PA who is boss and that the league says when negotiations end, right? Awesome.

Here is a simple question:

What is the difference between UFA contract length being 5 years or 6 and 7, when the league was going to give 7 on re-signs?

Explain to me how giving another year or two has any affect on what the owners want.

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