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CBA Thread, Daniel Bryan Edition: The lockout is (tentatively) over!

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12-17-2012, 11:38 AM
  #601
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
You went full panda.


It's good to know if I die tomorrow, I have at least coined a phrase here that may never die.

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12-17-2012, 11:43 AM
  #602
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I guess at the end of the day, you don't seem overly concerned about the game growing among youth and how that will eventually produce new fans, new youth programs, junior teams, and eventually draft picks. Hell, Beau Bennett wouldn't exist without the NHL in Cali. He was the highest drafted player from California and it took 19 years after Anaheim got their team for it to happen (not sure if he was a Kings or Ducks fan).
Not overly concerned, no. As long as the league is strong from top to bottom and competitive from top to bottom, I'm happy. If that means 24 teams, great. If it means 30 teams (i.e. they found a way), great. To me what the southern experiment has shown more than anything is, they are more likely to add to the health problems of the league than the health of the league. You need a very particular kind of situation to make hockey work in the south. Nashville seems to have found it but even they struggle some financially I think. Has Dallas become a hockey hotbed since its glory days with Modano and Hull? Nope. Anaheim? Nope. I'd point to Nashville again as being bigger successes than those places, which suggests it's not just "win and they will come" but rather a particular set of circumstances that makes such a market viable. And ATL. Yes they were not managed well in the end, but they had some premiere talent on that team for a while, and money and the arena and the big suburban market... and no one came. Nobody every seems to get the points I make WRT to ATL sports fans and culture so I won't belabor them. I'll just say there's more to it than "can we get an arena deal in this place, is there a big population," etc.

Good points about hockey in CA though. If we start seeing great hockey players coming out of Florida and CA and Texas on a regular basis, I'll concede your points on the value of "growing hockey" in non-traditional markets. I see the main purpose of the league though, is to provide a great product on the ice and maintain financial stability. Adding teams so we can be "as big as other leagues" seems naive to me, but I accept I'm in the minority.

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12-17-2012, 12:13 PM
  #603
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Solid counterpoints Chancellor. I can't say I disagree with you completely. I want the game to grow and I think the NHL has a responsibility, and a financial benefit, to expanding into non traditional markets. That said, the financial bottom line is important and re-location may be necessary. I'm not sure I understand the league's love affair with staying in Phoenix as opposed to Atlanta, but it is what it is.

Personally, I fee like tapping into a market like Seattle would both be beneficial for growing the game and adding new fans as well as limiting financial losses. That's a safer investment to me. I also don't think contraction is necessary. If there are totally failing markets, there are several safe bets that would be a better option than contracting.

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12-17-2012, 12:26 PM
  #604
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The only untapped markets in the US that would be reasonable risks for relocation of Phoenix or one of the "perennial strugglers" are: Seattle, Portland, maybe Kansas City, maybe OKC. OKC seems like the kind of place that might be a non-starter but could invoke the "Nashville factor", in a place where fans are dying for more professional sports and not much else going on in their area. They have an AHL franchise obviously... not sure how financially sound a footing they have (never looked into it). Would be interesting to see what the lockout produced for them in terms of more fans turning out to see EDMs young stars play, when it's all said and done.

Other markets include Quebec and possibly Hamilton area (I think that's where the new 20K seat arena is going?). With Hamilton you might get the LA / Anaheim effect though with the Hamilton team always being an afterthought? Or... do we think there are SO many hockey fans in Ontario that it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference and the seats would be filled most nights regardless of the team's record?

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12-17-2012, 01:15 PM
  #605
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OKC loses the "Nashville factor" because they'd have direct competition, something the Predators don't have. The Predators share Nashville with the Titans, but their schedule only overlaps by 3 months and for one day/night a week (which the NHL usually doesn't schedule too many games directly against NFL games outside of the occasional playoff overlap). An OKC team would only have October ahead of the Thunder while sharing the same building.

With cities that size it tends to be an either/or situation when it comes to NHL and NBA teams. I don't think they could support two teams running simultaneously, especially when the second one would be fighting an uphill battle as it is as a non-traditional sport.

KC...nothing has changed there. Aside from having an arena the only thing the market itself has going for it is that they don't have a NBA team, so a NHL team would have the city to itself in the winter months. I'm not as anti-KC as I was 6 years ago for obvious reasons, but they're still far from the top of the list and with no ownership group and an extremely busy & profitable arena without a primary tenant it's not something I really see them pushing in the near future. KC's window of opportunity closed when we got the arena deal...unfortunately for them that wasn't even a real window since they were simply used (something I'm sure has left a sour taste in their mouths).

Seattle and/or Portland need and will get teams eventually. Seattle sooner than later.

There really aren't a whole lot of legitimate candidates in this country right now. Houston can be thrown up there, but they're also sans interested ownership group.


My view on the southern growth of the game is pretty simple...it got over-saturated too quickly, but was a great thing for the sport in general. There are two teams that I feel never should have been placed in the league because there were already teams in the vicinity of them that hadn't performed solid enough to prove the area was stable enough to support an additional team (in one case they didn't even wait for the other team to start play before they expanded across the across the state). Having a team in Texas is good for the sport (not an expansion team, but had the North Stars not moved there they would have received one of the 90s expansion teams without a doubt). Having a team in Florida is good for the sport. Having the two major metro areas of California represented is huge and is starting to play dividends for American hockey. I was against Nashville at first, but I've changed my tune there. Atlanta could have, and almost certainly would have worked if they didn't have a lethal 1-2 punch of incompetent management coupled with disinterested owners.

Phoenix...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Other markets include Quebec and possibly Hamilton area (I think that's where the new 20K seat arena is going?). With Hamilton you might get the LA / Anaheim effect though with the Hamilton team always being an afterthought? Or... do we think there are SO many hockey fans in Ontario that it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference and the seats would be filled most nights regardless of the team's record?
I'd say a more apt comparison would be with the LA/Anaheim baseball teams. It took 40 years, a rich owner, and a championship before the Angels were anything more than a blip on the radar. Despite the fact that they've been a better team than the Dodgers fairly consistently since the turn of the millennium and have been spending just as much as the Dodgers (sometimes more...but now the Dodgers are outspending everyone) the Dodgers still dominate the baseball scene in Southern California. The Angels' presence is growing consistently, but it took a long time.

And they weren't fighting half of what a Hamilton team would in the sense that a.) Orange County is, and has been for a long time, an insanely wealthy place...Hamilton is an industrial city and b.) The Dodgers only moved to LA in 1958...the Angels were an expansion team in 1961.

A Hamilton team would almost certainly fill the arena, but they wouldn't be doing so at the same ticket costs that the Maple Leafs would be able to charge and they'd have a very limited national appeal. I'm a huge proponent of filling unserviced markets before doubling-down on already serviced markets, so I'm against a Hamilton team as long as Seattle, Quebec, and Portland are still teamless, but there are far worse options and I definitely think more highly of a Hamilton option than a Markham option.

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12-17-2012, 02:27 PM
  #606
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The only teams that should move are Phoenix and Florida. The state of Florida can only really support 1 team, and Tampa is in a much better state than Florida. Phoenix should either be dissolved or moved, simple as that. Sorry Bettman, hockey just can't survive in the desert. You can't just throw a team in the middle of nowhere and expect people to go. You have to grow the amateur/junior programs in that area. That's what they did in Dallas, and that's why they are pretty successful for a southern team.

I'd listen to a case to move the Blue Jackets as well. I don't think it's an issue of location for them, they have just had a terrible team that has been run terribly. Kinda like the Pirates. I'd move the Panthers to Quebec City, the Yotes to Seattle and, if needed, I'd move the Jackets to Hamilton. If Ontario can make 1 bad team one of the most profitable in the league, why can't they do it with 2.

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12-17-2012, 03:15 PM
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big McLargehuge View Post
OKC loses the "Nashville factor" because they'd have direct competition, something the Predators don't have.
The Titans play in Nashville AFAIK. That would definitely qualify as direct competition. The problem with OKC is basketball season mirrors hockey season. That's the bigger factor than their being one other team in town IMO.

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12-17-2012, 03:20 PM
  #608
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The Titans play in Nashville AFAIK. That would definitely qualify as direct competition.
And in my next sentence I addressed that. Football isn't a direct competitor to the NHL from the midway point on.

The NBA, essentially, runs concurrently with the NHL.

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12-17-2012, 03:51 PM
  #609
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The dream of the 1890s is alive in Portland.

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12-17-2012, 05:24 PM
  #610
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This thread needs more pandas.

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12-17-2012, 05:50 PM
  #611
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That is awesome.

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12-17-2012, 05:54 PM
  #612
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And in my next sentence I addressed that. Football isn't a direct competitor to the NHL from the midway point on..
That's what I get for quick-scanning a modertor's post between work tasks. Damn me all to hell!



And now to follow-up appropriately:

Quote:
My view on the southern growth of the game is pretty simple...it got over-saturated too quickly, but was a great thing for the sport in general
Can you be more specific / quantify why it was great? What's changed about the NHL since then as a direct result of southern teams? I honestly don't see it other than Nashville becoming a pleasant surprise of a niche market, and I guess you could argue Carolina (sort of a tweener state). But I don't see how any of those teams have created more TV influence for the NHL or anything approximate in terms of growing the popularity of the sport nationally.

Anaheim - LA baseball: fair enough but then the question is, if it takes 40 years in baseball what will it take in hockey and will that long of a struggle with plenty of financial ups and downs in the meantime be worth it? LA is clearly established as a franchise and has been for a while. San Jose while full of playoff disappointments has been very competitive and a good product on the ice... Anaheim... I dunno. They seem like a mixed bag at best. I don't think the fans there are as into it as the other two venues based on anecdotal observations from Center Ice, etc.


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12-17-2012, 06:42 PM
  #613
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That's what I get for quick-scanning a modertor's post between work tasks. Damn me all to hell!



And now to follow-up appropriately:



Can you be more specific / quantify why it was great? What's changed about the NHL since then as a direct result of southern teams? I honestly don't see it other than Nashville becoming a pleasant surprise of a niche market, and I guess you could argue Carolina (sort of a tweener state). But I don't see how any of those teams have created more TV influence for the NHL or anything approximate in terms of growing the popularity of the sport nationally.

Anaheim - LA baseball: fair enough but then the question is, if it takes 40 years in baseball what will it take in hockey and will that long of a struggle with plenty of financial ups and downs in the meantime be worth it? LA is clearly established as a franchise and has been for a while. San Jose while full of playoff disappointments has been very competitive and a good product on the ice... Anaheim... I dunno. They seem like a mixed bag at best. I don't think the fans there are as into it as the other two venues based on anecdotal observations from Center Ice, etc.
It's growing the sport in those regions. It takes a lot of time for the effect to be seen. Remember, we didn't see a Pittsburgher make the NHL until Ryan Malone, nearly 40 years after the team started playing there (and he was the son of a player-turned-scout...the guys after him are a little more 'legitimate' products in that their Pittsburgher-ness had less to do with their dad being a Canadian that happened to play there). For as much good as Lemieux did for hockey in Pittsburgh we're really only starting to bear fruit from that as far as producing players now. It's a rare case that someone picks up hockey later on in life and becomes good at it...it happens, but those are typically freak athletes. You need to be raised into the game, and it takes a generation before you start seeing people raised following the sport to produce children who play the sport. I'm a first generation hockey fan in my family...there was no way in hell my dad was going to pay the money needed for me to play the sport I loved when he barely understood it...nope, I was going to play baseball just like he did and his father did and his father did. My kid(s) will be pushed towards hockey.

In LA it took Gretzky to legitimize the team and sport and we're starting to see prospects come out of that now. We're only now seeing kids appear in juniors who are from these southern markets. The sport is growing by huge numbers in this country as far as youth hockey numbers are concerned. This article from 2011 shows some of those leaps just from 1998-99 to 2009-10. North Carolina grew by 116.1%, Georgia by 89.1%, Texas by 51.5%, etc.


The problem here is the perception that the league has lost popularity in this country, which...well, okay, after this fiasco the league will have undone a lot of good, but the fact of the matter is that the NHL was always a niche sport in this country that never had much of a following outside of pockets. The difference is that there's now numerous television networks and the internet to show us the harsh reality of that fact that didn't exist when the bulk of us were growing up. Yes, ESPN showed NHL games...but they also showed indoor soccer and Aussie-rules football when I was growing up.

As the game grows amongst the youth then so will television ratings and ticket sales as those kids grow up. It's really hard to just pick up a sport when you're an adult and grow to love it. Hell, the only reason I pay as much time worrying about baseball despite the Pirates doing everything in their power to alienate me over my entire life is because I grew up playing and loving the game. If I didn't sink so much time as a youngster into it I probably wouldn't care as much as I do now...and it also put in me a deep understanding of the game.


As for the Anaheim thing...my thoughts on shared markets is clear, I'm thoroughly against them. No matter how much Anaheim wants to be their own place, the entire reason that they're on the map is because it's a distant suburb of Los Angeles that Walt Disney was able to buy a bunch of land in. It's different enough that there's a very real divide between the two (I'm borderline offended by the Angels including the Los Angeles part of their name...LA proper is 90% Dodgers), but the fact remains that I can hop on the I-5 in the middle of the afternoon and be there in 30 minutes. The Ducks owe their existence to Disney and Wayne Gretzky, and that's that. Had Gretzky been traded to, say, St. Louis instead of Los Angeles then I'd say it'd be safe to say that the LA area doesn't get a second team. Hell, if The Mighty Ducks movie came out in 2012 instead of 1992 the Ducks probably wouldn't have been a NHL team.

I'll give the Ducks the fact that they're not a problem in the NHL, and that's mostly because they've been fairly successful (swap the Ducks with the Panthers and the roles would be reversed) and, as such, have established a very loyal and knowledgeable fan base that is large enough to support a team...but I still think they should have never existed and the fact that the Walt Disney Company was able to buy a NHL franchise as basically a cross-over promotion is a black mark in the NHL's history (of which there are dozens).

Basically what it boils down to is that I feel the 1993-94 Expansion was a mistake. The NHL was hardly the only league to expand questionable in the early/mid 90s...the Florida Marlins, Jacksonville Jaguars, and Vancouver Grizzlies also exist/existed.

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12-17-2012, 07:04 PM
  #614
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From the Ottawa Sun Texas City Becoming Hockey Prospect Factory. It includes names like Seth Jones (who's father was NBA player Popeye) and Stefan Noesen.


Raw Numbers: Hockey's Growth in the US 1990-2010


Instead of looking in the stands and pointing out the attendance issues the Stars are going through (which were of the same kind the Penguins went through with ownership issues and the team idea changing), look beyond. Don't just look at Nashville now, look at what California and Texas have accomplished and continue to do so to show you where they get a blueprint. Yes, hockey will always be second banana to football in Texas, but that doesn't mean it's not there (and has been). I'm sorry it's not growing fast enough for you, but you'd have to be blind to see it's not. Quit going on theories and start bringing up facts.


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12-17-2012, 08:14 PM
  #615
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Here's a fantastic article on why the PA's tactic could backfire.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...DQ71hw.twitter

Great read

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12-17-2012, 08:39 PM
  #616
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the difference in our thinking, CV, is that you are looking more at the NHL and I am looking more at hockey in general.

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12-17-2012, 08:42 PM
  #617
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
The only teams that should move are Phoenix and Florida. The state of Florida can only really support 1 team, and Tampa is in a much better state than Florida. Phoenix should either be dissolved or moved, simple as that. Sorry Bettman, hockey just can't survive in the desert. You can't just throw a team in the middle of nowhere and expect people to go. You have to grow the amateur/junior programs in that area. That's what they did in Dallas, and that's why they are pretty successful for a southern team.

I'd listen to a case to move the Blue Jackets as well. I don't think it's an issue of location for them, they have just had a terrible team that has been run terribly. Kinda like the Pirates. I'd move the Panthers to Quebec City, the Yotes to Seattle and, if needed, I'd move the Jackets to Hamilton. If Ontario can make 1 bad team one of the most profitable in the league, why can't they do it with 2.
Florida and Columbus are both pretty darn safe from being moved due to corporate sponsorship and arena deals. There is a list of teams that are more likely to be relocated including teams like New Jersey and Anaheim. Not saying either is likely to be moved; just more likely than Florida or Columbus.

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12-17-2012, 08:51 PM
  #618
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I can't believe I missed this.



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12-17-2012, 08:51 PM
  #619
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Florida and Columbus are both pretty darn safe from being moved due to corporate sponsorship and arena deals. There is a list of teams that are more likely to be relocated including teams like New Jersey and Anaheim. Not saying either is likely to be moved; just more likely than Florida or Columbus.
I don't think the Ducks will be moving, but the Devils are fair game. If a team is swimming in debt after making it to the cup final, there's something wrong there.

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12-17-2012, 08:53 PM
  #620
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Regardless of what the merits are of the Florida Panthers are...they have about as much of a chance of moving in the next 15 years as we do. It's possibly the most iron-clad lease in the league. The Blue Jackets may be right behind it...and for a much longer term. The Blue Jackets and Penguins have very similar lease terms if I'm not mistaken.

The Ducks are in no danger, either. Samueli is worth $2.3 billion and the Ducks are doing fine for themselves regardless of that.

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12-18-2012, 08:37 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
That's what I get for quick-scanning a modertor's post between work tasks. Damn me all to hell!

I feel you CV.




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12-18-2012, 12:35 PM
  #622
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No more pictures of Lyle Odelein please, they're highly offensive.

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12-18-2012, 12:48 PM
  #623
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I really hope that you are right. But honestly, if all contracts were voided, most people would re-sign with their current teams. But hopefully we won't ever need to find out.
I don't see it happening either, we are talking beyond the nuclear option. If it did, I can honestly say that I doubt I'd watch another NHL game.

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12-18-2012, 12:53 PM
  #624
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All while they argue over what amounts to trivial issues


NHL lockout doing ‘alarming’ damage to brand
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A disastrous map would be the one Level5 created following the BP PLC oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico in 2010. It was the worst the company had seen – until it got around to the NHL this month.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6500907/

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12-18-2012, 01:44 PM
  #625
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It was inevitable.
Yep



shop potential

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