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Price to Toronto

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Old
12-08-2012, 10:40 AM
  #151
Habsawce
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Yeah I'm a Habs fan, and yes my opinion is most likely bias but I just don't see how any other goalie would garner a higher value than Price.

Age, skill, mental attributes all favour him massively. There are other goalies that are almost unmovable as well but I just see him at the top value wise.

That could all change though if he has a rough year though.

ps. Quick is 2nd most value for me for age and the fact he just keeps getting better and better. Lundqvist's age, while he's not too old hurts him against these goalies for value. Rinne, pfft!

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12-08-2012, 10:51 AM
  #152
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairie Habs View Post
Like the last 4 teams to make it to the SCF, Boston, Vancouver, NJ, and LA. No money spent on those goalies...

Why not give the pens a call and see if they will trade Malkin (~110 points at 8.7M) for Desharnais (~60-70 points at about 1.5M). Now given the extreme value we are offering they will have to add a few first round picks but I doubt they will have a problem with that.

Quality costs more. You need quality to win. "Moneyball" won't work in hockey.
Its not about Quality versus Moneyball. Its about at which position you should invest your budget to have quality. We live in a salary cap era where compromise must be made.



******

About the Stanley cup final....

Last season, Los Angeles was the second team who allowed the less % of their budget in goalie. NJD was 9th.

In 2010-2011 Boston and Vancouver wasn't among the top 10 teams who allowed the most of their budget for their goalie.

Here is a copy and paste of an old post of mine, the success of teams according to how much % of their budget they allow in goal....

if you look at all the finalist since the lockout, many had a cheap paid goalie...

2006: Carolina - Ward (684 000$) / Edmonton - Roloson (1 672 000$)
2007: Anaheim - Giguere (3 990 000$) / Ottawa - Emery (925 000$)
2008: Detroit - Osgood (800 000$) / Pittsburg - Fleury (1 3000 000$)
2009: Pittsburg - Fleury (5 000 000$ / Detroit - Osgood (1 500 000$)
2010: Chicago - Niemi (826 875$) / Philadelphia - Leighton (600 000$)
2011: Thomas (5 000 000$) / Luongo (5 333 333$)
2012: Quick (1 800 000$) / Brodeur (5 200 000$)

9 finalist over 14 had a very cheap paid goalie under 2 000 000$, And even goalie like Thomas was not among the top 10 most paid goalie at the time they won the cup.

****


The 2010-2011 Ranking according to % of budget allowed for goalie.

Source: http://www.nhlnumber...rder=desc&year=


Here is the top 10 teams that allowed the most of their budget on Goaltending and their final ranking

Rank / % of their budget on Goalie / Final ranking

1 - Flo / 14.22% / 28Th
2 - Min / 13.89% / 21Th
3 - Car / 13.33% / 19Th
4 - NYR / 13.32% / 18Th / playoff exit in 1st round
5 - Tor / 12.92% / 22TH
6 - BUF / 12.49% / 15Th / Playoff
7 - NYI / 11.37% / 27Th
8 - STL / 10.49% / 20Th
9 - NJD / 10.34% / 23Th
10- CGY / 9.99% / 17Th

Well, out of the top ten teams, only 2 barely made it to the playoff, the NYR find an early exit and only buffalo had chance to make it past the first round.

The top 10 team that allow the least of their budget on Goalies ?

1 - Chi / 3.52% / 13Th / Playoff
2 - Col / 3.63% / 29Th
3 - Was / 3.79% / 02nd / playoff 2nd Round
4 - CLB / 3.95% / 24Th
5 - Det / 4.15% / 06Th / Playoff 2nd Round
6 - LAK / 4.43% / 12Th / Playoff
7 - Phi / 5.64% / 03Th / Playoff
8 - TBL / 5.91% / 08Th / Playoff
9 - Atl / 6.43% / 25Th
10- MTL / 6.03% / 14Th / Playoff

7 made the playoff

in 2011-2012 ...

teams / % spend / ranking & points / playoff result

The top 10 teams who allowed the most of their budget on goalie....

01 - CAR - 14.39% 23th 82pts
02 - NYR - 12.42% 02nd 109pts - Playoff Semi Final
03 - MIN - 12.10% 24th 81pts
04 - NYI - 11.30% 27th 79pts
05 - ANA - 10.61% 25th 80pts
06 - PHI - 10.60% 06th 103pts - Playoff Second Round
07 - BUF - 10.57% 19th 89pts
08 - CGY - 10.42% 17th 90pts
09 - NJD - 10.39% 09th 102pts - Playoff Final
10 - BOS - 10.14% 07th 102pts - Playoff 1st round

The top ten teams who allowed the less ?

1 - WAS - 4.16% 15th 92pts - playoff second round
2 - LAK - 4.79% 13th 95pts - Stanley CUP
3 - FLA - 4.86% 14th 94pts - Playoff 1st round
4 - TOR - 4.96% 26th 80pts
5 - DET - 5.15% 08th 102pts - Playoff 1st round
6 - CHI - 5.40% 10th 101pts - Playoff 1st round
7 - PHX - 5.94% 11th 97pts - Playoff Semi Final
8 - WPG - 5.77% 22th 84pts
9 - MTL - 6.07% 28th 78pts
10 - CLB - 6.36% 30th 65pts


Among the 5 teams who spend the least on goalie, 4 made the playoff with a Stanley cup winner and a second round.

Among the 5 teams who spend the most on goalie? One team (NYR) made the semi final, the 4 other missed the playoff


*****

Also Desharnais was a RFA last time we signed him and he wont be a UFA at the expiry of his contract. And once he hit the UFA status, i doubt he will come cheap any more. He doesn't qualify as a "cheap UFA." He is in the same Category than Jonathan quick, a 26yo cheap paid RFA. When i try to figure out the value of a player, i compare them to what is avaible on the UFA market and for how much (UFA player have no trade value).


Last edited by palindrom: 12-08-2012 at 12:01 PM.
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Old
12-08-2012, 10:57 AM
  #153
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I don't understand where no money was spent on thomas, luongo and brodeur. The last time i checked they were all getting decent paychecks. Quick is now getting payed big too.

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12-08-2012, 11:06 AM
  #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
I don't understand where no money was spent on thomas, luongo and brodeur. The last time i checked they were all getting decent paychecks. Quick is now getting payed big too.
2012-2013 quick contract is still 1 800 000$ His next contract begin in 2013-2014.

While Thomas, Luongo and Brodeur did get a good pay check, the % of the budget their teams allowed in goalie was not among the top ten of the league. Their team didn't "overpaid" (in term of cap hit) for their goalies, but paid close to the average of the league value.

While NJ was indeed among the top ten team who allowed the most of their budget in goalie (9th) in 2012. We can safely say that Brodeur in his career often accepted contract lesser than his market value (he had no agent) this fact contributed to the success of NJ in the past two decade.

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12-08-2012, 11:07 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by nmbr_24 View Post
I am not a Habs fan, in fact they are my most disliked team, but I just don't see themt trading Price, especially to a division rival like the Leafs, for anything but an amazing deal.

This deal would have to include either a top line forward or prospect or a top pairing D or prospect. The only one the Leafs have is Reilly so he has to be in the deal, no other way around it. It then has to include a high quality 2nd line forward or prospect or #2-3 D or prospect.

Any of these prospects need to be ready for the NHL right now.

Then on top of that I would need a good player to tip the scales in my favor plus I would need a pick as a tax for trading him within the division.

I would want Reilly, Kadri, Lupul, and a 1st to even start thinking about it otherwise I would more than gladly keep one of the top few goaltenders in the league and best player on either team.
It wouldn't be anywhere close to that, not that it would ever happen.

Only way Price would be moved to Toronto is under extraordinary circumstances which would hurt his value. (Similar to Luongo's).

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12-08-2012, 12:09 PM
  #156
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I would not make the deal because it would create us a MAJOR hole between the pipes. And Toronto would loose their best player. So neither team would make the deal.

But the only way I'd trade Price to Toronto (value wise) would be: Price for Kessel.

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12-08-2012, 12:22 PM
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACC1224 View Post
It wouldn't be anywhere close to that, not that it would ever happen.

Only way Price would be moved to Toronto is under extraordinary circumstances which would hurt his value. (Similar to Luongo's).
I agree that it would have to be under extrairdinary circumstances that Price would be moved to TO.

But I think that in order for the Habs to move Price it would take an overpayment, and the players I suggested were just to start talks, I don't think that gets the deal done, I think Toronto has to pay up big time.

There is no way that Toronto could acquire Price without giving up a couple of their best players/prospects. There is no way Toronto gets Price cheaply. If they tried to cheap out on a deal and the Habs were looking to move Price, I can only imagine what kind of deal Philly would come up with.

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12-13-2012, 07:23 PM
  #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glenbuis View Post
So you think by taking gomez off of our hands, you could fool us into giving you one of the top 5 goalies in the game.
There's only one fool here and we all know who it is. Change your handle to pricehater and get it over with. Only in a dream world would mtl trade price to the leafs. Although some good players come back to mtl they're not going to replace price with a fringe starter

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12-13-2012, 09:08 PM
  #159
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It would take a massive overpayment: Rielly + Kessel + Reimer

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12-13-2012, 11:09 PM
  #160
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This thread is basically quality for quantity and I don't see why Montreal does this. You don't trade a top 5 franchise goalie for quantity even if it is Gardiner, which they don't need because Subban is fine. Montreal does not want any leaf prospects other than Reilly maybe because face it nobody wants Colborne/Kadri anymore. Montreal needs to have one of the next two of Toronto's first round picks and would need to sign a veteran backup and draft/sign a young goalie prospect for Price to leave plus a lot more from Toronto's side.

TOR:

JVR/Lupul
Reilly
1st 2013

MTL:

Price

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12-14-2012, 09:38 AM
  #161
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Nope

Even if the value is fair i wouldnt trade price to a division rival, ever

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12-14-2012, 05:39 PM
  #162
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Montreal traded Grabovski to Toronto for Pateryn and a 2nd round pick (Later traded for Robert Lang)

Then Montreal traded Gilmour to Toronto for a 5th (or less) round draft pick. He played 5 minutes, got hurt and then retired.

(Trades aren't going in order)

When was there another deal between the two that had any significance ?

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12-14-2012, 05:54 PM
  #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Montreal traded Grabovski to Toronto for Pateryn and a 2nd round pick (Later traded for Robert Lang)

Then Montreal traded Gilmour to Toronto for a 5th (or less) round draft pick. He played 5 minutes, got hurt and then retired.

(Trades aren't going in order)

When was there another deal between the two that had any significance ?
if a team do 3 trades per years, it will in average wait 10 years to make a trade with a team.

if we made 2 deals with Toronto in the past 10 years. Then its one of the team we traded the most with.

When was the last time we traded with, let say Anaheim or Edmonton ?

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12-14-2012, 06:04 PM
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
if a team do 3 trades per years, it will in average wait 10 years to make a trade with a team.

if we made 2 deals with Toronto in the past 10 years. Then its one of the team we traded the most with.

When was the last time we traded with, let say Anaheim or Edmonton ?
Lapierre?

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Old
12-14-2012, 06:08 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Lapierre?
Good one.

Other trades?

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12-14-2012, 06:18 PM
  #166
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i dont quite understand why habs fans think Price is the best, most valuable, generational talent, ect. please educate me as to why this might be?

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12-14-2012, 06:19 PM
  #167
palindrom
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Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Good one.

Other trades?
We didnt trade with Edmonton in the past 10 years... Are we trying to avoid them for any reason ? or its just a concidence

December 18, 2000 - Sergei Zholtok traded to Edmonton Oilers for Chad Kilger

March 9, 2000 - Igor Ulanov and Alain Nasreddine traded to Edmonton Oilers for Christian Laflamme and Matthieu Descoteaux

September 6, 1996 - Andrei Kovalenko traded to Edmonton Oilers for Scott Thornton

Alternatively, i have to say we traded a lot more with Anaheim than i thought...

July 15, 2011 - Mathieu Carle traded to Anaheim Ducks for Mark Mitera

February 17, 2011 - 5th Round pick (Brian Cooper) in 2012, previously acquired from Anaheim (December 31, 2010) traded back to Anaheim Ducks for Paul Mara

December 31, 2010 - Maxim Lapierre traded to Anaheim Ducks for Brett Festerling and a 5th Round pick in 2012 (Brian Cooper) which was later traded back to Anaheim for Paul Mara (February 17, 2011)

December 1, 2009 - Kyle Chipchura traded to Anaheim Ducks for a 4th round pick (Magnus Nygren) in 2011

But I am not sure if we call call all these deal "significant"

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12-14-2012, 06:22 PM
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
i dont quite understand why habs fans think Price is the best, most valuable, generational talent, ect. please educate me as to why this might be?

Named to the WHL West First All-Star Team in 2007.
Won the Del Wilson Trophy (WHL Top Goaltender) in 2007.
Won the CHL Goaltender of the Year Award in 2007.
Won the Calder Cup with the Hamilton Bulldogs in 2007.
Won the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy (Calder Cup MVP) in 2007.
Won the overall Molson Cup in 2008-09
Won the overall Molson Cup in 2010-11
Won the overall Molson Cup in 2011-12
Named NHL Rookie of the Month in March 2008.
Named to the NHL All-Rookie Team in 2008.
Named to the NHL All-Star Game in 2009 (starter).
Named to the NHL YoungStars Game in 2009
Named to the NHL All-Star Game in 2011.
Named to the NHL All-Star Game in 2012.

But really, the origins come from 2007 after being the youngest player to ever win the the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy (Calder Cup MVP).

One of his teammate said that a goalie like him come once every decade. ( i am trying to find the quote, i will edit this post if i find it)


Last edited by palindrom: 12-14-2012 at 06:33 PM.
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12-14-2012, 07:53 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Habsawce View Post
Lapierre?
Lapierre, their first round pick from 03, or 05. He's a bust. Traded for Carle. Paul Mara. Chipchura, too. I think there's another trade, or two. That palindrome guy doesn't really follow the Habs. It's quite obvious...

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12-14-2012, 07:56 PM
  #170
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I have a better chance at becoming Prime Minister than Price becoming a Maple Leaf.

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12-14-2012, 08:07 PM
  #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Named to the WHL West First All-Star Team in 2007.
Won the Del Wilson Trophy (WHL Top Goaltender) in 2007.
Won the CHL Goaltender of the Year Award in 2007.
Won the Calder Cup with the Hamilton Bulldogs in 2007.
Won the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy (Calder Cup MVP) in 2007.
Won the overall Molson Cup in 2008-09
Won the overall Molson Cup in 2010-11
Won the overall Molson Cup in 2011-12
Named NHL Rookie of the Month in March 2008.
Named to the NHL All-Rookie Team in 2008.
Named to the NHL All-Star Game in 2009 (starter).
Named to the NHL YoungStars Game in 2009
Named to the NHL All-Star Game in 2011.
Named to the NHL All-Star Game in 2012.

But really, the origins come from 2007 after being the youngest player to ever win the the Jack A. Butterfield Trophy (Calder Cup MVP).

One of his teammate said that a goalie like him come once every decade. ( i am trying to find the quote, i will edit this post if i find it)

Also on his resume was winning the WJHC and tournament MVP honors.

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12-14-2012, 08:29 PM
  #172
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Lapierre, their first round pick from 03, or 05. He's a bust. Traded for Carle. Paul Mara. Chipchura, too. I think there's another trade, or two. That palindrome guy doesn't really follow the Habs. It's quite obvious...
did you read my previous posts ?

Quote:
Alternatively, i have to say we traded a lot more with Anaheim than i thought...

July 15, 2011 - Mathieu Carle traded to Anaheim Ducks for Mark Mitera

February 17, 2011 - 5th Round pick (Brian Cooper) in 2012, previously acquired from Anaheim (December 31, 2010) traded back to Anaheim Ducks for Paul Mara

December 31, 2010 - Maxim Lapierre traded to Anaheim Ducks for Brett Festerling and a 5th Round pick in 2012 (Brian Cooper) which was later traded back to Anaheim for Paul Mara (February 17, 2011)

December 1, 2009 - Kyle Chipchura traded to Anaheim Ducks for a 4th round pick (Magnus Nygren) in 2011

But I am not sure if we call call all these deal "significant"

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12-14-2012, 08:37 PM
  #173
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Carey Price, unlike Roberto Luongo, is a stupidly high value asset. I would argue the Leafs don't have anywhere near the assets to make it happen.

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12-14-2012, 10:54 PM
  #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Carmoni View Post
It would take a massive overpayment: Rielly + Kessel + Reimer
This is for Price, Galcheynuk and Subban right?

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:07 PM
  #175
palindrom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMLFan7 View Post
This is for Price, Galcheynuk and Subban right?
Not even close, it would take an overpayment to convince
Toronto to send Kessel and Rielly to their Rival.

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