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Lockout Thread 2: Deal reached in early morning hours

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Old
12-17-2012, 12:20 PM
  #376
Blue Liner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coldsteelonice84 View Post
Football has a larger negative cumulative effect on the players and affects a greater number of the players than hockey. However, the biggest, most devastating hits happen in hockey because of the speed. Also, in hockey, lacerations are common whereas in football they are rare. If you picked one, it would be football, but the bottom line is that there is football and hockey and then everything else.
This, and maybe toss in Rugby and Australian Rules Football.

As for the high velocity hits in hockey, sure, they're there, but they're rare. I'm referring to the highlight reel, one guy is going full bore at 25mph and hits a solitary player and crushes him. Those highlight reel, high impact hits like that aren't the norm. Those kind of direct hits happen in football routinely. Almost any time a RB gets hit it's a high-speed, direct hit against, many times by more than one guy.

Anyway, this is a silly debate and we're getting away from the topic of the thread. Football is a more physically devastating sport generally speaking and overall, but we all know there aren't any athletes tougher than hockey players. No more proof needed than looking at what guys play through come playoff time, both in the history of the game and today.

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12-17-2012, 02:09 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Blue Liner View Post
As for the high velocity hits in hockey, sure, they're there, but they're rare. I'm referring to the highlight reel, one guy is going full bore at 25mph and hits a solitary player and crushes him. Those highlight reel, high impact hits like that aren't the norm. Those kind of direct hits happen in football routinely. Almost any time a RB gets hit it's a high-speed, direct hit against, many times by more than one guy.
Sure, but:

A) Those RB's aren't going as fast as a hockey palyer skating down the middle of the ice.

and

B) The guy he is running into isn't coming at him full speed either, and the majority of the time, the guy is standing still or has taken just a couple of steps to hit him.

But we are also comparing a few positions in football (RB, WR) that take these hits, whereas in hockey, everyone but the goalie is open to these hits.

But I agree, too far away from the topic now. I'm done.

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12-17-2012, 02:17 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Hawkaholic View Post
Sure, but:

A) Those RB's aren't going as fast as a hockey palyer skating down the middle of the ice.

and

B) The guy he is running into isn't coming at him full speed either, and the majority of the time, the guy is standing still or has taken just a couple of steps to hit him.

But we are also comparing a few positions in football (RB, WR) that take these hits, whereas in hockey, everyone but the goalie is open to these hits.

But I agree, too far away from the topic now. I'm done.
When it's a linebacker or a defensive back they are, and in some cases a lineman even can be coming at full speed if the play goes laterally/sideline to sideline or if a QB is scrambling in the backfield.

Never said the RB or any guy on the field would be going as fast, but at football speed (which at the NFL and even NCAA DI level is frighteningly fast especially given the huge bodies nowadays) that hit happens constantly/with much more frequency. Not to mention, even in an NHL game guys aren't going full bore 100% of the time. Even coming down the middle of the ice that isn't always the case when you're cutting, zig-zagging, circling.

And taking these positions out of it, every other position on the field is taking a hit of sorts every single snap, save for the QB.

Bah, I really am done this time! None of this is important!


Last edited by Blue Liner: 12-17-2012 at 02:22 PM.
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Old
12-18-2012, 05:08 AM
  #379
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some news about the Lockout?

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Old
12-18-2012, 05:52 AM
  #380
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Not news but a really interesting piece about how the NHLPAs plan to go to court against the NHL won't work in their favor.

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-l...antitrust_law/

To Summarize
The PA taking the NHL to court won't work because the court can't get involved in an ongoing negotiation. Breaking up your union doesn't mean the previous negotiations didn't happen or don't matter it's still the same single negotiation so the court can't/won't get involved.


Quote:
By Rob Becker, Sportsnet legal analyst

The NHL's decision to file a pre-emptive lawsuit against the NHL Players' Association appears to be based on a desire to show the union that its plan to file a "disclaimer of interest" in order to allow the players to file antitrust suits against the league will fail.

And I believe the union's plan will indeed fail because Judge Paul Engelmayer, the young but brilliant federal judge in New York City who has been assigned the case, will see right through the formality of the disclaimer of interest to the underlying substance of what it really is: just another negotiating tactic by a union whose death will have been greatly exaggerated.

And that will mean that the players' antitrust suits will continue to be barred, just as they have been while the union has been representing the players. It also means a settlement -- or at least a settlement that the union will be happy with -- is not just around the corner.

The governing law here lies on the borderline between U.S. labour and antitrust law. If the league and the union had not been negotiating with each other one-on-one over these past years -- if there had never been a union, or if it had been terminated some time ago -- then the players would be free to claim that the league's decision to lock them out was an illegal collusion of teams to avoid paying the players what they would get if there were free competition for their services. Or, a violation of the antitrust laws. But when the two sides are negotiating as units -- league vs. union -- there is an exception to the antitrust laws under labour law, one in which the players are barred from bringing antitrust suits. This exception was created in order to allow collective bargaining to occur, because without it, leagues would have to fear that any attempt to negotiate as one entity might be construed as a conspiracy in restraint of trade.

The issue here is when does the termination of a union put the parties back where they would have been if there hadn't been a union, so that the players are free to bring antitrust suits?

The players appear to believe that the answer is as soon as the union no longer represents the players.

And they seem to believe that if the union files a disclaimer of interest, which would mean it claims to no longer represent the players, the owners will have such a fear of antitrust suits that they will come to the bargaining table and make concessions.

But a review of the recent labour fights in the NFL and NBA shows that the players' confidence is misguided. In 2011, the NFL players went through the methodical process of actually decertifying the union, which means the players were essentially firing the union. Decertification lasts at least 45 days and is overseen by the National Labour Relations Board. It's not a quick fix.

At first, the NFL players' plan worked. They prevailed in the federal district court in Minnesota, which ruled they could bring antitrust suits and enjoined the NFL lockout. But the league appealed to the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals, which reversed the district court judge by a vote of 2-1 and essentially found that all the parties were still in the midst of the same labour dispute they were involved in when there was a union. And the appellate court stated that under the Norris-La Guardia Act, federal courts are forbidden from enjoining lockouts in the middle of labour disputes. So the lockout continued. Yes, there eventually was a settlement, but in reaching that settlement, the NFL was bargaining from a position of strength.

In November 2011 the NBA Players' Association, locked in a dispute with the NBA, filed a disclaimer of interest and the players brought antitrust suits against the league. That same month, a settlement was reached. But there was no legal ruling by a court in that case.

The players appear to be betting that since, in these two situations, the termination of the union led to a settlement, it is reasonable to expect that terminating the union will once again lead to a settlement, because of the owners' fear of antitrust suits. But although union termination has been followed by settlement twice recently, it does not follow that union termination will be followed by settlement this time.

That's especially true here. In the NBA situation, there was no legal ruling, so we don't know whether the NBA owners settled because they feared antitrust suits. If we compare this situation to what happened in the NFL, it becomes clear that the NHL owners have reason to be confident of victory.

That's because the players have gone about this process in such a transparent way. What the NHL players are doing (as I'm writing this) is two steps closer to an obvious charade than what the NFL players did in 2011. First of all, since a disclaimer of interest is a quick process, it will be easier for Judge Engelmayer to conclude that it doesn't represent a real breakup between the union and the players. But second, the players are actually in the process of voting to have the union disclaim interest. Disclaimers of interest normally happen when a union has grown disenchanted with its membership and essentially fires the members and says we refuse to represent you anymore -- kind of like a contentious divorce. But when the players actually vote to have the union disclaim interest, which is like asking someone to fire you, it's pretty obvious that they aren't disenchanted with their union at all. And just to make the sham clear, it was the NHLPA's executive board that voted to authorize the players to vote to authorize the union to disclaim interest in further representing the players.

All of which makes it even more likely that Judge Engelmayer, who graduated summa *** laude from Harvard College and magna *** laude from Harvard Law School, will conclude that this is indeed what the Norris-La Guardia Act refers to as a "case involving or growing out of a labour dispute" and thus that he is forbidden to issue an injunction to end the lockout.

So I doubt the players' strategy will lead to a quick end to the lockout in their favour. But ironically what might happen is that Judge Engelmayer, who, unlike mediators, has the power to threaten the parties with consequences if they do not act reasonably, may take the players and their lawyers into a conference room and say, "are you kidding me? I may have only been a judge since last year, but I wasn't born yesterday. I know that you guys still look to the union to guide and lead you in this labour dispute. And that's exactly why it's the same labor dispute it's always been. So if you think that when you guys file antitrust suits in my court I'm gonna enjoin the lockout, guess again!"

If that happens, the players will be bargaining from a weaker position than they were in early December, and the only settlement that will result will be one in which they move closer to accepting the owners' terms.

I think that's exactly why the NHL filed its lawsuit on Friday -- they know that by doing so, they are moving the players closer to the realization that the antitrust cudgel they have been holding over the league is made of feathers.

That might save the season, but not the way the players want.

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Old
12-18-2012, 07:51 AM
  #381
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Yes, the gap is relatively small but it is clear the players will not eat up the difference no matter what. They have made that clear since day one. Unfortunately, the NHL doesn't want any part of it either. I think the PA is just trying to make things as difficult as possible so the NHL will just cave in. As I have maintained throughout these negotiations, until that happens, there will be no hockey. I have no doubt the players will take this as far as it needs to go, one whole season, two whole seasons, whatever it takes. This is about sending a message for them. They don't give a damn about the lost wages and seem to believe (rightfully so IMO) that the owners losing potential profits 10 fold or more of what the players are losing are going to throw their arms up at some point and override the minority of owners and Bettman who are driving this lockout.

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12-18-2012, 08:21 AM
  #382
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Yeah, I'm officially confident that this season will not happen. Gave both sides too much credit over the last few months, thinking both sides were waiting it out for the other to flinch and then would come up with something at the last minute. No way that's gonna happen now. Court could take us into June

What an embarrassment. I almost hope this goes to the courts and kills a few years. Let both sides suffer when no one gives a **** in 3 years.

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Old
12-18-2012, 08:31 AM
  #383
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Exactly, the only way this game is going to improve and move forward, without future lockouts, is for it to suffer irreparable damage. Only at that point will both sides cater to what fans are left and do everything possible to keep us happy. Moreover, a few of these teams need to be moved or eliminated and that is another byproduct of a prolonged stoppage. Obviously, losing one season last time wasn't enough. It probably is going to have to go through next season too before teams start folding and they start doing the things that need to be done to get the game to start growing again.

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12-18-2012, 10:49 AM
  #384
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I’d be willing to bet that Fehr has convinced the players that this is the only way to go and that the NHL will in all likelihood capitulate before they risk all the unknowns that come with decertification. After all it worked before in other NA pro sport leagues, and more than once. Well Donald, the owners aren’t co-operating with your gambit and are unlikely to do so. We have seen this resolve before from them and they seem well prepared for your nonsense. Are you really going to lead the union into completely unknown territory where no one knows what will happen, not even the lawyers? Are you going to be able to lead the union into a world far removed from the ice, that could very well mean months, if not years, of legal wrangling? If not, now what? There’s nothing on the table any more. The players had better be asking that very question of him before this goes beyond ugly, and the only one left standing will be all the lawyers rubbing their hands together.

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12-18-2012, 10:53 AM
  #385
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
I’d be willing to bet that Fehr has convinced the players that this is the only way to go and that the NHL will in all likelihood capitulate before they risk all the unknowns that come with decertification. After all it worked before in other NA pro sport leagues, and more than once. Well Donald, the owners aren’t co-operating with your gambit and are unlikely to do so. We have seen this resolve before from them and they seem well prepared for your nonsense. Are you really going to lead the union into completely unknown territory where no one knows what will happen, not even the lawyers? Are you going to be able to lead the union into a world far removed from the ice, that could very well mean months, if not years, of legal wrangling? If not, now what? There’s nothing on the table any more. The players had better be asking that very question of him before this goes beyond ugly, and the only one left standing will be all the lawyers rubbing their hands together.
They players hired Fehr knowing exactly who he was and what it meant. Stop acting like the players are these innocent sheep being lead to slaughter by the averice of the evil Donald Fehr. Seriously, just stop it.

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Old
12-18-2012, 11:41 AM
  #386
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They players hired Fehr knowing exactly who he was and what it meant.
I understand your point but I haven't seen anything to suggest the players knew what they were doing (as a PA) for years.

I'm not saying it will be better or worse for them hiring Fehr (I think it will end up being a positive) but If they understood what was going on we wouldn't have seen so much of what we've seen transpire.

The players are given 5 days to vote on an issue that's been around (by their words) for at least 5 weeks but it took them no time and no interest to extend the last CBA knowing full well it would end in a lockout.

About the other sports compared to this one. The NFL players did not come out ahead at the end of the day from disbanding the union. The initial ruling in favor of the players was overruled because both sides continued to negotiate. I'm not sure how it applies to the NHLPA but it might mean they have to avoid negotiations to gain a favorable ruling now that there's precedent.

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12-18-2012, 06:59 PM
  #387
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Are you really going to lead the union into completely unknown territory where no one knows what will happen, not even the lawyers?
You do realize that Fehr is a lawyer and was originally hired by the MLBPA after successfully defending one of their players in a appeal over a labor law dispute. He isn't just a negotiator, he is a proven litigator. I pretty sure the Union knows exactly who he is and what he has done in the past.

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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
Are you going to be able to lead the union into a world far removed from the ice, that could very well mean months, if not years, of legal wrangling?
It won't take years. Neither the Owners or the Players are going to let this dispute jeopardize next season as well.

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There’s nothing on the table any more.
That is a complete load of crap. If the players told the Owners they would accept the last proposal it would be back on the table instantly. Pulling the deal was nothing but ploy to try and scare the players.

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The players had better be asking that very question of him before this goes beyond ugly, and the only one left standing will be all the lawyers rubbing their hands together.
The players know who they hired. This isn't a surprise to them. Fehr isn't doing this on his own without their consent. They know the risks and they seem to have accepted them. Worst case scenario for the players is that the season is lost and they don't make any money. No matter what happens in court they aren't going to lose more than what they are already losing right now. If anyone should be asking questions of their current representation its the Owners. They are the ones that could potentially be on the line for 3x the amount of salary lost in a pissing match over a small difference in contract issues.

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Old
12-18-2012, 08:17 PM
  #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sketch22 View Post


The players know who they hired. This isn't a surprise to them. Fehr isn't doing this on his own without their consent. They know the risks and they seem to have accepted them. Worst case scenario for the players is that the season is lost and they don't make any money. No matter what happens in court they aren't going to lose more than what they are already losing right now. If anyone should be asking questions of their current representation its the Owners. They are the ones that could potentially be on the line for 3x the amount of salary lost in a pissing match over a small difference in contract issues.
That isn't the worst case scenario. Yes that is true of today. But what is also true is that the owners are willing to split HRR 50/50. If the players take this to court and lose, all their bargaining power just went out the window, no union and no courts to end the lockout, they will be lucky if the NHL offers them 40%.

The players realize going to court is a lose lose for them it's why they still haven't done it even though they could have ended their union on Sunday. It was a ploy by Fehr and the PA to get the NHL to budge but the NHL realizes their in the strong seat now and they won't move 1 inch.

Fehr realized he went too far last meetings and is now trying to get out. That's what a disclaimer of interest is, it's not the players breaking up their own union, it's the union heads, Fehr and his group telling the players they don't work for them anymore.

Fehr saw the NHL's last offer, of increasing Make Whole, no FA and Arbitration changes, escrow growth for the players and possible buyouts as not an olive branch but as weakness and instead of saying thanks and offering one of his own he attacked. Look at the reaction of the pro player front office people to see that everyone in the NHL took that as in insult and imbedded down. Now instead dividing the owners he brought them together as a group and played his last hand.

Fehr thought he owners where bluffing on their last offer but so he raised and they quickly called and now he realizes that he is basically out of options. He can either do what he is doing and quit or he would have to go back to the players and go, guys I think the NHL's last offer is a good offer and we should take it after telling them to hold out for more. Either way he sees the writing on the wall and went with option A for now. If the players refuse option A and tell him to fix it I see the PA signing a deal very very similar if not the exact one the NHL most recently offered.

Scary thing is the NHL knows they have the cards right now and might start actually scaling things back or pulling them off the table all together. Hopefully calm heads prevail and instead of trying to get back at the players they want to get back to hockey more.
HOPEFULLY!

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Old
12-18-2012, 08:19 PM
  #389
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Any update on the likelihood of the season starting in January? 50%, 25%, 10%??

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12-19-2012, 12:28 AM
  #390
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any update on the likelihood of the season starting in january? 50%, 25%, 10%??
0.0000000000001%

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12-19-2012, 12:30 AM
  #391
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Any update on the likelihood of the season starting in January? 50%, 25%, 10%??
There is not going to be a season this year. Only the most optimistic among us have not admitted that yet.

That's not even beginning the conversation of whether or not there will be a season next year, either.

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12-19-2012, 04:32 AM
  #392
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There is not going to be a season this year. Only the most optimistic among us have not admitted that yet.

That's not even beginning the conversation of whether or not there will be a season next year, either.
I am pessimistic about a season this year like most.

There will be a season next year. There is too much money to be lost by losing another season.

Fact is there are still many owners who want a season this year because of the money lost in sponsorships and TV deals if a season isn't played. The NHL would owe NBC a free year of hockey if the season is cancelled which just by itself would cost the NHL almost a billion dollars. Plus players don't want to lose a full year on their contract and career.

Sadly it was always going to come to this, people had to lose things in order to realize what they really had and now it becomes can they deal done in time to get back to hockey and can they let cooler heads prevail.

Again I think too much damage has been done for this year, I still think there is a 5% chance hockey is played this year, however I am 100% sure we see the NHL back on time next year.

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12-19-2012, 07:37 AM
  #393
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Originally Posted by Sir Psycho T View Post
That isn't the worst case scenario. Yes that is true of today. But what is also true is that the owners are willing to split HRR 50/50. If the players take this to court and lose, all their bargaining power just went out the window, no union and no courts to end the lockout, they will be lucky if the NHL offers them 40%.

The players realize going to court is a lose lose for them it's why they still haven't done it even though they could have ended their union on Sunday. It was a ploy by Fehr and the PA to get the NHL to budge but the NHL realizes their in the strong seat now and they won't move 1 inch.

Fehr realized he went too far last meetings and is now trying to get out. That's what a disclaimer of interest is, it's not the players breaking up their own union, it's the union heads, Fehr and his group telling the players they don't work for them anymore.

Fehr saw the NHL's last offer, of increasing Make Whole, no FA and Arbitration changes, escrow growth for the players and possible buyouts as not an olive branch but as weakness and instead of saying thanks and offering one of his own he attacked. Look at the reaction of the pro player front office people to see that everyone in the NHL took that as in insult and imbedded down. Now instead dividing the owners he brought them together as a group and played his last hand.

Fehr thought he owners where bluffing on their last offer but so he raised and they quickly called and now he realizes that he is basically out of options. He can either do what he is doing and quit or he would have to go back to the players and go, guys I think the NHL's last offer is a good offer and we should take it after telling them to hold out for more. Either way he sees the writing on the wall and went with option A for now. If the players refuse option A and tell him to fix it I see the PA signing a deal very very similar if not the exact one the NHL most recently offered.

Scary thing is the NHL knows they have the cards right now and might start actually scaling things back or pulling them off the table all together. Hopefully calm heads prevail and instead of trying to get back at the players they want to get back to hockey more.
HOPEFULLY!


I think the scaling back part by the owners is already underway. Let's remember that the extra $ 100 M was a one-time proposal by the moderates. There is certainly no guarantee that it will be back on the table anytime soon. Part of it perhaps, but the hard-liners have taken over and are the key NHL spokesmen at this point, imo.

I see there are still a number of media types who think a deal will get struck in January - the thinking that the two sides are not that far apart and of course the threat of going to court may stimulate both sides to compromise further. Unfortunately the 48 game schedule Bettman mentioned to the press recently is likely the best we can hope for at this point…. Or is it the best? The NHL will still have too many weak teams in poor locations. The fans will not be flocking back to watch a watered down season and merchandise sales will be way down. I think at least one team will be gone by this time next season and that is being optimistic.

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12-19-2012, 08:35 AM
  #394
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There is not going to be a season this year. Only the most optimistic among us have not admitted that yet.

That's not even beginning the conversation of whether or not there will be a season next year, either.
I haven't admitted it yet, but if there isn't a season, I think next season is in big trouble too.

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12-19-2012, 09:45 AM
  #395
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I still think there is going to be a season. I mean they couldn't be so stupid as to do this twice, could they?

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12-19-2012, 09:51 AM
  #396
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I still think there is going to be a season. I mean they couldn't be so stupid as to do this twice, could they?
That's been my thinking for this whole thing, up until last week. I'm starting to think maybe they really are dumb enough to call it all off.

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12-19-2012, 11:27 AM
  #397
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IF it ever came to a free for all --no more union,voided contracts/everyone free-agents again,including the ELC contracts vto the kids,loss of rights for developing kids drafted by NHL teams but not yet signed---ie.CHAOS ...then even IF the anti-trust suits by players get squashed---you would necessitate the opposite of owners hoping to offer LESS MONEY to individual contractors now"grateful" for an NHL job ---BECAUSE to do so would smack of owner collusion and bring the anti-trust suits AGAIN-this time with a win against the NHL...THUS the only way to avoid this ina 'free for all" is that there would be a HUGE SPLIT between have and have not teams ---the "rich teams" would spend to collect THE BEST SQUAD THEY CAN GET THEIR GREEDY HANDS ON ---payrolls could go to $90million+ ---THE "POOR TEAMS"
would fold because they cannot compete with only $40-50million budgets--even then many still would lose money--and the middle level in finances teams would stay barely break-even or lose a bit of money at about the $60 million payroll range OR make more if they go to $40 million and let the rich clubs outbid themselves for top talent with $50million more spending than these clubs at that level..
THEN as soon as cheaper players develop into stars they willbe snapped up by the rich clubs as soon as contracts expire--THUS OVER TIME it is the NEW YORK YANKEES vs. the KANSAS CITIES in spending differentials and the fans of the least spenders who never contend will simply LOSE INTEREST and not show up (because in the USA --unlike with baseball--the game alone in hockey matters-your team must be competitive--in baseball fans still go out for "loser teams" because you can "enjoy" a warm summer day ,frosty beer and a hot dog --catching those rays --and still feel like you are putting your time and money to good relaxing use...IN hockey--you donot have such a luxury of support for pereenial loser teams..
SO soon there willbe MORE CONTRACTION...ONLY the biig spender teams willbe left in the game..

DOES THE NHL and the pool of current and potential NHL level talent that would supply the players for the League,really want to go down that DISASTER route? I think not--but then legal risks can turn into ugly consequences probably NOT INTENDED or FORSEEN by either side,,but the FANS can see it only one way -IF it gets to destroy the game THAT MUCH -too many will NEVER COME BACK ...THE GREED and EGOS of this process will have KILLED THE GOLDEN GOOSE...THE FANS will say SHAME on BOTH OWNERS and PLAYERS --we just do not care ANY LONGER.

I hope it NEVER gets that far into such a TRAGEDY,that so easily could heve been prevented --except for stubborness...

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12-19-2012, 11:32 AM
  #398
Chris Hansen
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Originally Posted by HawksFan74 View Post
I still think there is going to be a season. I mean they couldn't be so stupid as to do this twice, could they?
Unfortunately they really are that stupid.

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12-19-2012, 11:50 AM
  #399
BobbyJet
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I know I’m dreaming but what a fabulous time to start-up another WHA or even better a Canadian Hockey League. We need a league with players that play for the love of the game first and get handsomely paid as a bonus for doing so … with ticket prices that Joe average can afford. Not prima donna multi-millionaires, with guaranteed contracts that have been pampered for way too long, who will destroy the league and anything else that gets in their way in their quest for the almighty dollar.

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12-19-2012, 11:56 AM
  #400
Hawkaholic
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Originally Posted by BobbyJet View Post
I know I’m dreaming but what a fabulous time to start-up another WHA or even better a Canadian Hockey League. We need a league with players that play for the love of the game first and get handsomely paid as a bonus for doing so … with ticket prices that Joe average can afford. Not prima donna multi-millionaires, with guaranteed contracts that have been pampered for way too long, who will destroy the league and anything else that gets in their way in their quest for the almighty dollar.
They would need owners who aren't in it just for the money too, just for the love of the game... which will never happen.

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