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Lockout Thread 2: Deal reached in early morning hours

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01-06-2013, 04:26 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Chelios View Post
No there is something I can say with 100% certainty: the players, aside from the make whole, will get 50% of HRR. That is a certainty. This seems to be where you are confused. You seem to think that somehow the player "wins" in contract terms, buyouts and variance will somehow make up the money lost (both through lost games and damage to the brand). That is impossible, since they are all coming out of the same 50% of HRR assigned to the players. Its as simple as that.
You keep missing my point and I'm not going to bother to address it over and over again. The financial aspect of the PA for not accepting an earlier deal is TBD. You can't say it any other way.

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01-06-2013, 04:26 PM
  #752
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Why? The NHL and it's players screwed over thousands of people who work for them and told them we don't care about you at all. As Bob McKenzie said, everyone was talking about the owners and players, don't care it's millionaires arguing with billionaires over who gets the money of the fans, everyone forgot about the little people who make the league run. Those people who work for the team that aren't making 7 figures, the arena workers, and everyone else who relies on these guys to make a living, and who the NHL relies on to work, couldn't and they where hurt and many couldn't even get their kids Christmas presents. But who cares because hockey is back and therefore all is just forgiven. And I am the one who needs to reassess my overall lookout on things.
Agree with this. I always feared that getting half a season this year would make everyone forget about the lockout and their anger.

The league and its players deserve to take a significant financial hit for their selfishness. As usual, the fans got shafted, but there are much more important people than us who were hurt by the lockout (as you noted).

Spend a little less money. Maybe buy less merchandise, or skip out on going to that game vs. Columbus. Do your small part and the owners and players will think twice next time.
Hopefully the majority of fans do the same.

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01-06-2013, 04:36 PM
  #753
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Well team employees like coaches, trainers, equipment managers, etc were still get paid. It's the arena staff that got the crap end of the stick.

And how many beer vendors do you think the players are interacting with on a daily basis?
Dammit that's what I thought at first. I need to unfollow a couple hockey "analysts" who led me to believe otherwise.

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01-06-2013, 04:37 PM
  #754
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]Spend a little less money. Maybe buy less merchandise, or skip out on going to that game vs. Columbus. Do your small part and the owners and players will think twice next time.
Hopefully the majority of fans do the same.
I don't really get this. When you buy less merchandise, who do you hurt more:

The billionaire ownership group who takes a small fraction of that purchase and throws it onto the giant mountain of cash they're raking in from other sources?

Or the vendor who sells that merchandise as their primary source of income?

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01-06-2013, 04:39 PM
  #755
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I don't really get this. When you buy less merchandise, who do you hurt more:

The billionaire ownership group who takes a small fraction of that purchase and throws it onto the giant mountain of cash they're raking in from other sources?

Or the vendor who sells that merchandise as their primary source of income?
They don't even make that small fraction. They only make money off royalties, unless you are buying from NHL.com or Blackhawks Store (or another team store, or the league store in NY).

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01-06-2013, 04:41 PM
  #756
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Spend a little less money. Maybe buy less merchandise, or skip out on going to that game vs. Columbus. Do your small part and the owners and players will think twice next time.
Hopefully the majority of fans do the same.
Someone else is going to buy that ticket anyways. You're better off just going if you want to, because not buying it isn't going to make them think twice about jack when in the end the ticket is still purchased.

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01-06-2013, 05:01 PM
  #757
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You keep missing my point and I'm not going to bother to address it over and over again. The financial aspect of the PA for not accepting an earlier deal is TBD. You can't say it any other way.
I am not missing your point at all. You have continued to argue that because of contract variance/term limit/buy outs, the PA will be able to "recoup" money lost by missing the first half of the season. I am saying that this is impossible since all the things you are talking about are coming out of the players 50% share of HRR. So unless you are arguing that somehow the lockout will lead to an increase in HRR, it is literally impossible for the PA to "recoup" these losses. You refuse to acknowledge this.

As far as the exact amount they lost, you are right, its impossible to say the exact amount. But the bottom line is that the Owners offered a 50/50 deal with a negotiable make whole in October that would have allowed for a full 82 game schedule and minimal negative impact on HRR going forward. Instead of negotiating off that, the PA refused and eventually agreed to a deal including 50/50 and a make whole except with at least 30 games of salary lost and an unknown effect on HRR going forward. You are somehow saying that the contract issues that the PA "won" somehow makes up for this lost money when it is impossible since they are all coming out of the players 50% share.

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01-06-2013, 05:16 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by IU Hawks fan View Post
Someone else is going to buy that ticket anyways. You're better off just going if you want to, because not buying it isn't going to make them think twice about jack when in the end the ticket is still purchased.
And this is the "I'm just one person, no one else is going to do it anyway" fallacy that plagues the NHL's fans. The very reason we'll just see another lockout next time around.

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01-06-2013, 05:23 PM
  #759
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I am not missing your point at all. You have continued to argue that because of contract variance/term limit/buy outs, the PA will be able to "recoup" money lost by missing the first half of the season. I am saying that this is impossible since all the things you are talking about are coming out of the players 50% share of HRR. So unless you are arguing that somehow the lockout will lead to an increase in HRR, it is literally impossible for the PA to "recoup" these losses. You refuse to acknowledge this.

As far as the exact amount they lost, you are right, its impossible to say the exact amount. But the bottom line is that the Owners offered a 50/50 deal with a negotiable make whole in October that would have allowed for a full 82 game schedule and minimal negative impact on HRR going forward. Instead of negotiating off that, the PA refused and eventually agreed to a deal including 50/50 and a make whole except with at least 30 games of salary lost and an unknown effect on HRR going forward. You are somehow saying that the contract issues that the PA "won" somehow makes up for this lost money when it is impossible since they are all coming out of the players 50% share.
Higher contract limits will put more money in players pockets. More years to average out cap space, add additional players. Buy outs will do the exact same thing.

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And this is the "I'm just one person, no one else is going to do it anyway" fallacy that plagues the NHL's fans. The very reason we'll just see another lockout next time around.
If it's going to be cheaper to attend a game I would because of the lockout. It's not going to be as far as we are concerned. Ticket prices will remain the same. As much as people are pissed off, there is a large contingent pent up to see some hockey. You also have less opportunity to with half a schedule.

You want them to pay for what they did to some extent but you also want the sport to thrive so this is a non issue next time.

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01-06-2013, 05:30 PM
  #760
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You want them to pay for what they did to some extent but you also want the sport to thrive so this is a non issue next time.
I understand this line of reasoning, but the sport was thriving to an extent it never had before. This lockout did not happen because of a lack of fan interest.

It happened because our dear owners and players think their fans are all suckers and they aren't afraid of losing them or potential revenue. Maybe they're right. I can't say I know for sure.

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01-06-2013, 05:35 PM
  #761
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I understand this line of reasoning, but the sport was thriving to an extent it never had before. This lockout did not happen because of a lack of fan interest.

It happened because our dear owners and players think their fans are all suckers and they aren't afraid of losing them or potential revenue. Maybe they're right. I can't say I know for sure.
It happened because the old CBA was slanted way too far to the players side but I feel like the owners tried to take back too much.

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01-06-2013, 05:42 PM
  #762
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It happened because the old CBA was slanted way too far to the players side but I feel like the owners tried to take back too much.
No, it happened because two sides are far too comfortable with themselves. There's a reason the MLB has had no disputes like this one since 1994.

EDIT: No Fun Shogun put it much better than I could have in a thread on the main boards.

"Yeah, it actually is. Major League Baseball used to be the most labor contentious league in North America, but the ridiculously negative fan reaction to their last strike in forms of protests, boycotts, big drops in merchandise sales and attendance, and even threats of congressional actions scared the players and owners ****less. As a result, they've had two decades of labor peace, despite having their own fair share of contention to deal with.

If people want to spend money on the NHL, that's their right and I can't stop them, nor should I try to. But when the next lockout happens in 2021 or 2023 or whenever the new CBA expires, I hope folks that went running back have the good common sense not to complain as they did literally nothing to try to send a message that such behavior wouldn't be tolerated by the very people paying everybody involved."


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01-06-2013, 06:35 PM
  #763
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Higher contract limits will put more money in players pockets. More years to average out cap space, add additional players. Buy outs will do the exact same thing.
This should not be this complicated. The players get 50%. Period. No matter how many players get bought out. No matter how many players sign long term deals. No matter how many players sign deals with large variance. The players still only get 50% of HRR. Its that simple. If $50 million worth of player contracts get bought out, that is $50 million of salary that is not available to other players, or $50 million that is lost through escrow.

Its not a difficult concept. If you won't listen to me, listen to Mike Johnson:

Quote:
There's only one number that really counts and that's the 50/50 because regardless of how you shuffle it around and what contract rights you keep or do not keep, you're only going to get 50 percent of the revenue," Johnson said. "So it doesn't matter for the players if they the team spent too much, too little, 50 percent will always be coming to the players, that's the big number."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412928

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01-06-2013, 07:45 PM
  #764
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This should not be this complicated. The players get 50%. Period. No matter how many players get bought out. No matter how many players sign long term deals. No matter how many players sign deals with large variance. The players still only get 50% of HRR. Its that simple. If $50 million worth of player contracts get bought out, that is $50 million of salary that is not available to other players, or $50 million that is lost through escrow.

Its not a difficult concept. If you won't listen to me, listen to Mike Johnson:



http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412928
I get it, more players still get paid. Buyouts, extended contracts, ect. You also have longer contracts, more money.

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01-06-2013, 07:46 PM
  #765
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No, it happened because two sides are far too comfortable with themselves. There's a reason the MLB has had no disputes like this one since 1994.

EDIT: No Fun Shogun put it much better than I could have in a thread on the main boards.

"Yeah, it actually is. Major League Baseball used to be the most labor contentious league in North America, but the ridiculously negative fan reaction to their last strike in forms of protests, boycotts, big drops in merchandise sales and attendance, and even threats of congressional actions scared the players and owners ****less. As a result, they've had two decades of labor peace, despite having their own fair share of contention to deal with.

If people want to spend money on the NHL, that's their right and I can't stop them, nor should I try to. But when the next lockout happens in 2021 or 2023 or whenever the new CBA expires, I hope folks that went running back have the good common sense not to complain as they did literally nothing to try to send a message that such behavior wouldn't be tolerated by the very people paying everybody involved."
MLB is banking so much money off off t.v. contracts, it's a whole different thing.

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01-06-2013, 08:08 PM
  #766
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I get it, more players still get paid. Buyouts, extended contracts, ect. You also have longer contracts, more money.
I give up.

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01-06-2013, 08:22 PM
  #767
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I give up.
I thought you would say that. So we are clear, there is no benefit from extra terms in contracts, buy outs and pension for the players. It was a waste of time after 50/50. That is your stance.

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01-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #768
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With the lockout over, yet no games having been played, is it too early to bump the fire Quenneville thread?

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01-06-2013, 11:56 PM
  #769
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MLB is banking so much money off off t.v. contracts, it's a whole different thing.
No, it's not. That is irrelevant.

They have not had a lockout since '94 because of the fan backlash after that one. The owners and PA are scared by what they'd face from the fans if they did.
No one wants less money. Not in the NHL, not in the MLB. The T.V. contract will be there for baseball, given how popular it is in this country. That's not the point here.

The NHL's owners and players seem to think every one of their game's fans is a sheep. As I said, maybe that's the truth. Given the mindsets I've seen in this thread, we certainly have our fair share right here on the Hawks board.

As soon as the NHL comes back, everyone goes back 100% like good little doggies.

That's fine, I'm not going to tell you what to do. Well, that's not entirely true... I'll tell you one thing.
Don't whine to me when your favorite league is locked out again in eight years.

If the NHL - its owners and its players - aren't taught a lesson, then they'll continue to do the same thing. And none of us want that.

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01-07-2013, 12:57 AM
  #770
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^ I'm not buying the whole fan backlash thing. If they were struggling they would lock them out. Everyone is sitting pretty right now in MLB regardless of attendance numbers.

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01-07-2013, 01:56 AM
  #771
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^ I'm not buying the whole fan backlash thing. If they were struggling they would lock them out. Everyone is sitting pretty right now in MLB regardless of attendance numbers.
The NHL was flourishing prior to the lockout, yet it happened anyway. Hockey had never been so popular in the U.S. before. The PA and owners were content to be selfish idiots and assume the fans and the money would be there for them whenever they decided to return.
That's entirely my point.

Fan backlash is the only way that kind of greedy idiocy will disappear. Otherwise, these two pathetic groups will doubtless each find their next "hills to die on" in eight years and we'll all be right back where we were this October.

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01-07-2013, 03:15 AM
  #772
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The NHL was flourishing prior to the lockout, yet it happened anyway. Hockey had never been so popular in the U.S. before. The PA and owners were content to be selfish idiots and assume the fans and the money would be there for them whenever they decided to return.
That's entirely my point.

Fan backlash is the only way that kind of greedy idiocy will disappear. Otherwise, these two pathetic groups will doubtless each find their next "hills to die on" in eight years and we'll all be right back where we were this October.
Exactly.

The lockout didn't have to happen. Look I understand some financial situations needed to be changed, but it could have been worked out years ago.

But the players refused until this year, the NHL then tried to play hard ball, both parties acted like spoiled little brats and something that could have been solved in a matter of hours as we saw or even a week or so took months because each side acted, selfishly, stupidly, and horribly. Both sides proved many times over they only care about their wallets and nothing else.

I don't want to hear about players playing for the love of the game or owners not wanting to hurt the fans. It's all BS, actions speak louder then words and the actions of both sides this lockout screamed F you give me your money. Sadly many of you will forgot and forgive with no punishment for them and in 8 years one of them will opt out and we'll be back at this because the fans have proven that they'll come back like mindless monkeys no matter what they do to you.

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01-07-2013, 03:22 AM
  #773
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I don't understand the way they handled the negotiations, weeks where nothing was done or not starting negotiations well ahead of the September deadline. Instead of storming out after 15 minutes after getting a counter-offer, why not sit down and discuss what they like and don't like and go from there. Both parties acted like children (the NHL was the worst).

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01-07-2013, 03:23 AM
  #774
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Originally Posted by Chris Hansen View Post
The NHL was flourishing prior to the lockout, yet it happened anyway. Hockey had never been so popular in the U.S. before. The PA and owners were content to be selfish idiots and assume the fans and the money would be there for them whenever they decided to return.
That's entirely my point.

Fan backlash is the only way that kind of greedy idiocy will disappear. Otherwise, these two pathetic groups will doubtless each find their next "hills to die on" in eight years and we'll all be right back where we were this October.
It was not "Flourishing". By what standard? How many teams are losing money? It definitely needed some fixing.

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01-07-2013, 04:23 AM
  #775
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It was not "Flourishing". By what standard? How many teams are losing money? It definitely needed some fixing.
Yes, but fixing didn't need to require months of acting like kids and treating their fans and other people they rely on everyday like garbage.

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