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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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12-16-2012, 04:35 PM
  #501
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
Its clear you are pro owner, and anti-Fehr....thus you are on the side of the owners who's negotiating ploy is to lockout the players everytime the CBA expires.
I'm on neither side. Both sides are despicable, hence why I said they deserve each other. To hell with both of them.

But maybe some anonymous posters on an online board knows my psyche better than I do....

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12-16-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
You lie and you make **** up - no problem.

You call a poster a liar and making **** up - problem.

No wonder so many great posters have left here years ago, and Pauser is so prolific around here.
I don't think it's lying so much as different interpretations and view-points...at least in Pauser's case. I agree with many of his opinions, actually. Some for different reasons, some for not so different reasons and that's OK. Hell, I even disagree with him sometimes. Arguing anonymously online is much different as you would in person. You don't get to talk to them face-to-face, and in most cases just make your own image of the posters. If you voice your opinions so freely, you are bound to have a serious argument with someone, and if that one argument doesn't go well you have a less than flattering image of that poster (notice I didn't say person). That's just the way it goes. It's what makes arguing online such a blessing and a curse, I think. That said, I would support their being less anonymity on the internet. It just makes it more real and humanizing.

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12-16-2012, 04:52 PM
  #503
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Originally Posted by *Injektilo View Post
I'm on neither side. Both sides are despicable, hence why I said they deserve each other. To hell with both of them.

But maybe some anonymous posters on an online board knows my psyche better than I do....
I apologize for putting words in your mouth, It may just be the delivery of your posts that is rubbing me the wrong way.

About the situation at hand, I believe this league has already lost all credibility, so whether its a lost season, or a free market for all, it doesn`t matter they come across to me as fools, on both sides (but I do believe the players HAVE to fight for their rights, as they get fewer every 7 or so years).

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12-16-2012, 05:22 PM
  #504
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Voided contracts stemming from decertification will simply never happen, so any talk that treats it as a realistic possibility is essentially pointless. Not only is the NHL arguing from very shaky legal ground, but there is little reason to believe that that's even a reality that the owners would want in the event of decertification going through.

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12-16-2012, 05:54 PM
  #505
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I think Fehr must be pleased with the proceedings. He's got his lockout he wanted, he's stalled long enough to make DoI/decertification look valid, now he's got the court case he wanted. This is the war he wanted all along, a massive 2 year court fight on behalf of all the PAs across NA sports. He just needed a PA determined enough to stand with him and risk burning their own sport/livelihood to the ground and then salt the earth after for effect.

The NHL is ready for Fehr (helped by idiot players and their twitter fetishes) and Fehr is ready for them. This is going to be the big one that sorts out all the questions the NFL/PA and NBA/PA courts scuffles left unanswered. Both sides want answers to this and it's better for Fehr to sacrifice the NHL and it's players than one of the big leagues.

The players could receive 5+ billion in triple damages compensation if they win, lose billions and careers if they lose. OTOH the owners are risking billions in compensation, possibly to the point of just handing their teams over to the players. I wonder what would happen if the players in say Nashville won $400m and the owner just handed them the keys.

I guess we find out if the NHLPA blinks or goes all in.

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12-16-2012, 06:13 PM
  #506
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
I think Fehr must be pleased with the proceedings. He's got his lockout he wanted, he's stalled long enough to make DoI/decertification look valid, now he's got the court case he wanted. This is the war he wanted all along, a massive 2 year court fight on behalf of all the PAs across NA sports. He just needed a PA determined enough to stand with him and risk burning their own sport/livelihood to the ground and then salt the earth after for effect.

The NHL is ready for Fehr (helped by idiot players and their twitter fetishes) and Fehr is ready for them. This is going to be the big one that sorts out all the questions the NFL/PA and NBA/PA courts scuffles left unanswered. Both sides want answers to this and it's better for Fehr to sacrifice the NHL and it's players than one of the big leagues.


The players could receive 5+ billion in triple damages compensation if they win, lose billions and careers if they lose. OTOH the owners are risking billions in compensation, possibly to the point of just handing their teams over to the players. I wonder what would happen if the players in say Nashville won $400m and the owner just handed them the keys.

I guess we find out if the NHLPA blinks or goes all in.


Tin foil hat time.

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12-16-2012, 06:26 PM
  #507
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
I think Fehr must be pleased with the proceedings. He's got his lockout he wanted, he's stalled long enough to make DoI/decertification look valid, now he's got the court case he wanted. This is the war he wanted all along, a massive 2 year court fight on behalf of all the PAs across NA sports. He just needed a PA determined enough to stand with him and risk burning their own sport/livelihood to the ground and then salt the earth after for effect.

The NHL is ready for Fehr (helped by idiot players and their twitter fetishes) and Fehr is ready for them. This is going to be the big one that sorts out all the questions the NFL/PA and NBA/PA courts scuffles left unanswered. Both sides want answers to this and it's better for Fehr to sacrifice the NHL and it's players than one of the big leagues.

The players could receive 5+ billion in triple damages compensation if they win, lose billions and careers if they lose. OTOH the owners are risking billions in compensation, possibly to the point of just handing their teams over to the players. I wonder what would happen if the players in say Nashville won $400m and the owner just handed them the keys.

I guess we find out if the NHLPA blinks or goes all in.
While I find your premise ridiculous (the NHLPA wouldn't have made as many concessions as they have if their goal was a multi-year lockout), even if you're correct then the NHL is just as much to blame since they've been a willing partner the entire time. It's not like the NHLPA's requests are complete non-starters. The NHL could've easily moved towards the players and gotten a deal done thus preventing what you think will be a several year lockout. Did they seriously not expect strong resistance to cutting player salaries by 10-15% and cutting back contract rights in a climate where the league as a whole is the most profitable it's ever been?

This isn't like 04-05 where the two sides weren't even speaking the same language or where the league is losing money. Both sides could've easily bridged that gap and the tangible results for their members would've been nearly unnoticeable.

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12-16-2012, 06:34 PM
  #508
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I'm sure most of the players realize they are pretty damn lucky to have the lives they have, but if they are the primary reason people watch NHL hockey they should be properly compensated for their contributions. Would it make you feel better if they made minimum wage and the owners and Bettman made all the billions of dollars? Your post oozes of jealousy and misdirected anger.
It would make me feel better if they realized that & that they are bickering over the tiniest of issues.


Similar to your posts about pierre mcguire I guess

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12-16-2012, 06:46 PM
  #509
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post


Tin foil hat time.
To be fair, we are talking about the guy that pretty much ***** baseball.

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12-16-2012, 06:52 PM
  #510
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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
To be fair, we are talking about the guy that pretty much ***** baseball.
What`s wrong with baseball?

It's a completely fabricated premise IMO. I actually think its crazy this idea even has legs.

Besides that, what is the difference between baseball's strike, and hockey's 2004-2005 lockout.

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12-16-2012, 06:53 PM
  #511
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
What`s wrong with baseball?

It's a completely fabricated premise IMO. I actually think its crazy this idea even has legs.

Besides that, what is the difference between baseball's strike, and hockey's 2004-2005 lockout.
go look at what happened with the marlins/blue jays blockbuster trade and you will have your answer.

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12-16-2012, 07:12 PM
  #512
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Originally Posted by Imagine17 View Post
It would make me feel better if they realized that & that they are bickering over the tiniest of issues.


Similar to your posts about pierre mcguire I guess


Yes, not only is it similar...it's EXACTLY the same! So astute!

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Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
To be fair, we are talking about the guy that pretty much ***** baseball.
Is baseball really doing so poorly? And is Fehr actually responsible for that? I'm not so sure.

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12-16-2012, 07:55 PM
  #513
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The only thing with baseball is that the Blue Jays continue to be run by morons.

 
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12-16-2012, 08:09 PM
  #514
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The negotiating committee didn't have anything concrete to vote on, plus it would have to be something that they could recommend to their membership be worthy of a vote. Nothing worthy of a vote has been put forward.
Hmm, I'm not sure about that... it could well be the very last offer for a new CBA before the season gets shut down entirely. We are approaching the 48-game mark, aren't we?

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12-16-2012, 08:13 PM
  #515
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The only thing with baseball is that the Blue Jays continue to be run by morons.

I assume Roger's did something bad to you, because the Blue Jays have had a great winter. If next summer is as good they should make a lot of money. Both at the gate and through their sportnet franchise. Suddenly a league where owners have the freedom to make financial decisions to grow their market does not seem that bad. Sometimes the best thing an owner can do is invest money into their franchise. It was not that long ago that the Bluejays would have been one of the wealthiest teams in baseball they are trying to get back to that.

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12-16-2012, 08:20 PM
  #516
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Hmm, I'm not sure about that... it could well be the very last offer for a new CBA before the season gets shut down entirely. We are approaching the 48-game mark, aren't we?
Obviously the PA feels that the NHL's "take it or leave it", "package" offer wasn't one they could recommend to their membership. I don't blame them.

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12-16-2012, 08:20 PM
  #517
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
What`s wrong with baseball?

It's a completely fabricated premise IMO. I actually think its crazy this idea even has legs.

Besides that, what is the difference between baseball's strike, and hockey's 2004-2005 lockout.
Baseball's playoff strike was way more douchebaggy than a lost lockout year. But that just proves my point. Whoever is prepared to big the ******** wins.

How did the Russians beat Napoleon? They burnt their own country to the ground including burning the city of Moscow just so Grande Armee froze to death.

Bettman was prepared to burn the 2004-5 season to the ground so the players financially froze to death.

Fehr knows Bettman will do it again if he has to. Fehr is prepared to as well because he thinks he can get anti-trust, even if he can't he'll have at least laid waste to the place for a couple of years to give the owners pause for thought.

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12-16-2012, 08:24 PM
  #518
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Obviously the PA feels that the NHL's "take it or leave it", "package" offer wasn't one they could recommend to their membership. I don't blame them.
Seems drastic to resort to decertification before even holding a general vote... it's possible not all players feel the same way about the package offer too.

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12-16-2012, 08:35 PM
  #519
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Hmm, I'm not sure about that... it could well be the very last offer for a new CBA before the season gets shut down entirely. We are approaching the 48-game mark, aren't we?
I don't know what this fixation is with 48 games. Yes, they played 48 is 1995, in a league with 26 teams, not 30.

Let's assume no out of conference play. Each team would play 10 teams out of their division, and 4 within.

Home and away vs the other two divisions in the conference = 20 games
4 games vs other two divisions = 40 games

6 games vs own division = 24 games
or
4 games vs own division = 16 games

Really, they could go down to 44 or 36 games and still play a fair season. However, 64 games would keep conference play the same as before and would only eliminate cross conference play. Having an odd number of inter division or conference games would mean an imbalanced home and away, and would be unfair for tie-breaker scenarios.

Quote:
I think Fehr must be pleased with the proceedings. He's got his lockout he wanted, he's stalled long enough to make DoI/decertification look valid, now he's got the court case he wanted. This is the war he wanted all along, a massive 2 year court fight on behalf of all the PAs across NA sports. He just needed a PA determined enough to stand with him and risk burning their own sport/livelihood to the ground and then salt the earth after for effect.

The NHL is ready for Fehr (helped by idiot players and their twitter fetishes) and Fehr is ready for them. This is going to be the big one that sorts out all the questions the NFL/PA and NBA/PA courts scuffles left unanswered. Both sides want answers to this and it's better for Fehr to sacrifice the NHL and it's players than one of the big leagues.

The players could receive 5+ billion in triple damages compensation if they win, lose billions and careers if they lose. OTOH the owners are risking billions in compensation, possibly to the point of just handing their teams over to the players. I wonder what would happen if the players in say Nashville won $400m and the owner just handed them the keys.

I guess we find out if the NHLPA blinks or goes all in.
Fehr didn't want a lockout. The NHLPA would have played without an agreement, which would have given Fehr strike leverage later in the season like in 1994 in MLB. The last thing the union wants is their members making nothing for multiple seasons. There are possible consequences on both sides. The players could get triple pay and play in a cap-free environment, but on the other hand, the league could win the right to void all signed contracts. The court battle is a game of brinkmanship that I doubt either side really wants. Both sides want an agreement, but neither wants to work off of the other sides proposal.

We've already seen with the Coyotes what happens if teams like Nashville went belly up (I'm not sure why you're picking on them, they are one of the relatively healthier southern teams, but whatever...). They would go into bankruptcy protection. The NHL would have to take over the team, or else see a rogue billionaire snipe the team and move them to a market which doesn't help their strategic interests with TV contracts.

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12-16-2012, 08:48 PM
  #520
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Seems drastic to resort to decertification before even holding a general vote... it's possible not all players feel the same way about the package offer too.
It's already been discussed, the union negotiating team decides the course of action for the membership...if they don't feel the owner's offer is acceptable they don't bring it forward for a vote. The negotiating committee are the people who are in the negotiations on a daily basis and have a firm understanding of what is going on and have been placed in charge of making an acceptable deal for the membership.

It's possible that there are some dissenting voices who want a deal no matter what it is, but as long as those voices are in the minority there isn't going to be any votes on deals that the negotiating committee doesn't approve of.

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12-16-2012, 09:17 PM
  #521
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It's already been discussed, the union negotiating team decides the course of action for the membership...if they don't feel the owner's offer is acceptable they don't bring it forward for a vote. The negotiating committee are the people who are in the negotiations on a daily basis and have a firm understanding of what is going on and have been placed in charge of making an acceptable deal for the membership.

It's possible that there are some dissenting voices who want a deal no matter what it is, but as long as those voices are in the minority there isn't going to be any votes on deals that the negotiating committee doesn't approve of.
I see. It just seems there's quite a bit of bad optics around the PA leadership at times, when you hear on TSN about Fehr being accused of negotiating in bad faith - and didn't the World Series get canceled when he was with baseball? But then again you could say the same thing for the owners (i.e Jacobs) - perhaps even more so - as they look like they're controlled by a small minority. Certainly no side is innocent, but it just seemed like some very basic things were being missed out in all this, unless it's just me. I mean, what happened to the "make whole" offer? Why not just honour the contracts you signed, and then apply the new rules signed during the new CBA and be done with it? And a 50-50 split of revenue isn't that unreasonable, is it...?

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12-16-2012, 10:19 PM
  #522
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I see. It just seems there's quite a bit of bad optics around the PA leadership at times, when you hear on TSN about Fehr being accused of negotiating in bad faith - and didn't the World Series get canceled when he was with baseball? But then again you could say the same thing for the owners (i.e Jacobs) - perhaps even more so - as they look like they're controlled by a small minority. Certainly no side is innocent, but it just seemed like some very basic things were being missed out in all this, unless it's just me. I mean, what happened to the "make whole" offer? Why not just honour the contracts you signed, and then apply the new rules signed during the new CBA and be done with it? And a 50-50 split of revenue isn't that unreasonable, is it...?
I think everyone with a modicum of common sense can see where this SHOULD end up, but both sides seemed cemented in their position. Until rational thought takes over for the obstinant behavior we'll be at a stalemate...it'll come down to the very last second and a deal will be struck, there still isn't enough desperation because they know they can still salvage a season.

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12-16-2012, 11:21 PM
  #523
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Originally Posted by Catamarca Livin View Post
...the Blue Jays have had a great winter...
Too bad the game is actually played in spring, summer and fall.

 
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12-16-2012, 11:31 PM
  #524
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Too bad the game is actually played in spring, summer and fall.
So what's wrong with what they did?

Staying the course wasn't working. They traded the future to win now, and they seem to be drafting well enough to find more of these prospects....

This isn't like hockey. They took a calculates risk, and they are hoping it pays off.

I'd rather see the blue jays to for it and considering they don't have any 10+ year deals I think the risk was worth taking.

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12-16-2012, 11:44 PM
  #525
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So what's wrong with what they did?

Staying the course wasn't working. They traded the future to win now, and they seem to be drafting well enough to find more of these prospects....

This isn't like hockey. They took a calculates risk, and they are hoping it pays off.

I'd rather see the blue jays to for it and considering they don't have any 10+ year deals I think the risk was worth taking.
Especially considering the state of the AL East at the moment, this was a great play by AA to bide his time, build up the depth, make very shrewd signings and wait for an inevitable crack in the division. No clue how anyone can be negative about how this off season has gone for them.

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