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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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12-17-2012, 11:23 AM
  #551
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
It's pretty easy to see the PA has conceded rights at every turn in this negotiation.

I believe anyone who sees that as a 'ploy' to be a 'tin foil hat' type of person.
The league is taking it seriously... They're trying to block it...

It's more tin foil hat to think that Fehr is willing to start a process he's not prepared to finish, making a mockery of the court and system... then to actually follow through on a legit strategy that he feels will get more for the players... Either way you look at it, it's a tin foil hat. Which is it... Fehr doesn't think that decertification / disinterest will get the players more, or Fehr is not prepared to recommend what is necessary to get the players more? Why, to you, is Fehr not going to try and actually follow through with decertification / disinterest?

The fact is that Fehr has started the decertification / disinterest process, and he did it for some reason... The reason why is speculative either way... Either he's serious, or he's not... But he did recommend to the players that it's better to explore decertification / disinterest as an option than to accept the CBA being proposed... And better to spend time doing this than to negotiate further off of the latest proposal.

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12-17-2012, 11:51 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
The league is taking it seriously... They're trying to block it...

It's more tin foil hat to think that Fehr is willing to start a process he's not prepared to finish, making a mockery of the court and system... then to actually follow through on a legit strategy that he feels will get more for the players... Either way you look at it, it's a tin foil hat. Which is it... Fehr doesn't think that decertification / disinterest will get the players more, or Fehr is not prepared to recommend what is necessary to get the players more? Why, to you, is Fehr not going to try and actually follow through with decertification / disinterest?

The fact is that Fehr has started the decertification / disinterest process, and he did it for some reason... The reason why is speculative either way... Either he's serious, or he's not... But he did recommend to the players that it's better to explore decertification / disinterest as an option than to accept the CBA being proposed... And better to spend time doing this than to negotiate further off of the latest proposal.
Whether this is a negotiating ploy or the PA actually intends to decertify doesn't really matter. They've negotiated, they've made significant financial concessions and have a partner who is trying to bully them and won't make any serious concessions of their own. I don't believe any of the players (or Fehr) actually WANT to decertify, but they feel backed into a corner and this might be their only option to be free of the consistent and outright strongarm tactics of the NHL. They've been acting like union busters for years now, lets see how they like it when they get their wish.

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12-17-2012, 12:09 PM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Whether this is a negotiating ploy or the PA actually intends to decertify doesn't really matter. They've negotiated, they've made significant financial concessions and have a partner who is trying to bully them and won't make any serious concessions of their own. I don't believe any of the players (or Fehr) actually WANT to decertify, but they feel backed into a corner and this might be their only option to be free of the consistent and outright strongarm tactics of the NHL. They've been acting like union busters for years now, lets see how they like it when they get their wish.
Right, Fehr is prepared to recommend and follow through with it... Because he feels the players will be better off than with the current NHL proposal on the table. I agree with you, so does that mean you wear a tin foil hat also, or does that mean neither of us do?

I think that Fehr would prefer to reap the rewards for the players that he could get without decertifying... But unfortunately, the NHL isn't prepared to give these type of rewards, so Fehr is going down the path that he feels WILL get the players these rewards...

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12-17-2012, 12:36 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
Right, Fehr is prepared to recommend and follow through with it... Because he feels the players will be better off than with the current NHL proposal on the table. I agree with you, so does that mean you wear a tin foil hat also, or does that mean neither of us do?

I think that Fehr would prefer to reap the rewards for the players that he could get without decertifying... But unfortunately, the NHL isn't prepared to give these type of rewards, so Fehr is going down the path that he feels WILL get the players these rewards...
No, the "foil hat" comes from the idea that this was pre-planned by Fehr as a means of sacrificing the NHL so that other major sports would benefit from it. Or that Fehr had no intentions of trying to negotiate a deal and that he was looking for an extended (years long) lockout. There are NO benefits to either the NHL or PA in an extended lockout.

Like I said before, this is a game of high stakes chicken. The players have always folded in the end, and this time they might be prepared to go in until the bitter end. If the owners want to keep testing their resolve by bullying, its going to blow up eventually. There is a deal to be made here and the owners aren't desperate enough to flinch yet, players are still willing to move but there has to be reciprocation in some form. IMO when it gets to a point where they'll have to cancel the season, THAT'S when you'll see the owners cave...if they don't, it'll be decertification and a whole new landscape that they probably won't like in the end.

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12-17-2012, 12:53 PM
  #555
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No, the "foil hat" comes from the idea that this was pre-planned by Fehr as a means of sacrificing the NHL so that other major sports would benefit from it. Or that Fehr had no intentions of trying to negotiate a deal and that he was looking for an extended (years long) lockout. There are NO benefits to either the NHL or PA in an extended lockout.

Like I said before, this is a game of high stakes chicken. The players have always folded in the end, and this time they might be prepared to go in until the bitter end. If the owners want to keep testing their resolve by bullying, its going to blow up eventually. There is a deal to be made here and the owners aren't desperate enough to flinch yet, players are still willing to move but there has to be reciprocation in some form. IMO when it gets to a point where they'll have to cancel the season, THAT'S when you'll see the owners cave...if they don't, it'll be decertification and a whole new landscape that they probably won't like in the end.
So, because I think that Fehr came to this realization early in the process... perhaps before the process started... That he likely couldn't get the type of rewards for the players via CBA negotiation, that he thinks he can get the players, months before now, it means I wear a tin foil hat? It's because of timing I wear a tin foil hat? If anything, I give Fehr more credit as a visionary than you do...

Fehr has a specific idea as to the type of reward his players should receive... I think he would consider it fantastic if he could get "decertification result rewards" without actually decertifying... Maybe he can get something that more resembles this through last minute CBA negotiation via disinterest / decertification threat... If he doesn't, I think he will go the disinterest / decertification route as far as he can... If he can get the rewards he wants for the players before, via negotiation, I think that Fehr would consider this better... He'll try to get as much as he can for the players, until the players tell him it's enough...

But I do think that Fehr thinks that decertification is what it would take to get decertification-type player rewards... and that it isn't likely that the player can get decertification-type player rewards without decertification... I also think that Fehr is trying to get for the players as much as he can... I think that is why Fehr was hired... He'll try to keep adding to the pile until the players tell him what's in the pile is enough... I think that is what Fehr is paid to do... I don't think Fehr is going to be the one to say that this is enough, when he feels that he can get the players more...


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12-17-2012, 01:24 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
So, because I think that Fehr came to this realization early in the process... perhaps before the process started... That he likely couldn't get the type of rewards for the players via CBA negotiation, that he thinks he can get the players, months before now, it means I wear a tin foil hat? It's because of timing I wear a tin foil hat? If anything, I give Fehr more credit as a visionary than you do...

Fehr has a specific idea as to the type of reward his players should receive... I think he would consider it fantastic if he could get "decertification result rewards" without actually decertifying... Maybe he can get something that more resembles this through last minute CBA negotiation via disinterest / decertification threat... If he doesn't, I think he will go the disinterest / decertification route as far as he can... If he can get the rewards he wants for the players before, via negotiation, I think that Fehr would consider this better... He'll try to get as much as he can for the players, until the players tell him it's enough...

But I do think that Fehr thinks that decertification is what it would take to get decertification-type player rewards... and that it isn't likely that the player can get decertification-type player rewards without decertification... I also think that Fehr is trying to get for the players as much as he can... I think that is why Fehr was hired... He'll try to keep adding to the pile until the players tell him what's in the pile is enough... I think that is what Fehr is paid to do... I don't think Fehr is going to be the one to say that this is enough, when he feels that he can get the players more...
Ok, you obviously haven't read what I typed, aren't comprehending it or are just ignoring it. Not much I can do there.

As to the rest, sure Fehr would like to get as much as possible and is willing to use whatever tools available to him to do it (if the players are willing), but it doesn't mean he's not going to exhaust all other avenues before pulling out cards that neither side really wants to play. You are saying that this was his end game from the beginning, I think thats rubbish...I'm sure he thought it could come to this point, he wouldn't be worth his salt if he hadn't considered it...but I don't think it was always his plan to use decertification.

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12-17-2012, 01:26 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
The league is taking it seriously... They're trying to block it...

It's more tin foil hat to think that Fehr is willing to start a process he's not prepared to finish, making a mockery of the court and system... then to actually follow through on a legit strategy that he feels will get more for the players... Either way you look at it, it's a tin foil hat. Which is it... Fehr doesn't think that decertification / disinterest will get the players more, or Fehr is not prepared to recommend what is necessary to get the players more? Why, to you, is Fehr not going to try and actually follow through with decertification / disinterest?

The fact is that Fehr has started the decertification / disinterest process, and he did it for some reason... The reason why is speculative either way... Either he's serious, or he's not... But he did recommend to the players that it's better to explore decertification / disinterest as an option than to accept the CBA being proposed... And better to spend time doing this than to negotiate further off of the latest proposal.
The league taking it seriously doesn't mean its a 'ploy' to cement a 'legacy'.

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12-17-2012, 01:36 PM
  #558
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Ok, you obviously haven't read what I typed, aren't comprehending it or are just ignoring it. Not much I can do there.

As to the rest, sure Fehr would like to get as much as possible and is willing to use whatever tools available to him to do it (if the players are willing), but it doesn't mean he's not going to exhaust all other avenues before pulling out cards that neither side really wants to play. You are saying that this was his end game from the beginning, I think thats rubbish...I'm sure he thought it could come to this point, he wouldn't be worth his salt if he hadn't considered it...but I don't think it was always his plan to use decertification.
He had an idea, from the start, of the type of reward the players should receive for being pro NHL players... His approach is reward driven... How he approached these negotiations is to best get these rewards - starting from the less short term hardship to the players... This was his end game from the beginning... He's lined it up to get the best deal possible for the players... It just so happens that the end game is, ultimately, decertification, if it gets that far...

Fehr envisioned, from the start, an acceptable end reward, and the best pathway for the players to get to this reward... He'll continue to follow the pathway he set out until the players are pleased enough with the reward presented to them...

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12-17-2012, 01:40 PM
  #559
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The league taking it seriously doesn't mean its a 'ploy' to cement a 'legacy'.
One person's ploy is another person's strategy... It's a viable strategy, the league knows this... It should/could work... If the players allow Fehr to follow the strategy to it's completion, it should look good on Fehr as a union head, and the players should get more reward than they could otherwise get via CBA negotiation... and serve as an example for other pro unions to follow...

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12-17-2012, 03:15 PM
  #560
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He had an idea, from the start, of the type of reward the players should receive for being pro NHL players... His approach is reward driven... How he approached these negotiations is to best get these rewards - starting from the less short term hardship to the players... This was his end game from the beginning... He's lined it up to get the best deal possible for the players... It just so happens that the end game is, ultimately, decertification, if it gets that far...

Fehr envisioned, from the start, an acceptable end reward, and the best pathway for the players to get to this reward... He'll continue to follow the pathway he set out until the players are pleased enough with the reward presented to them...
While this concept isn't "foil hat" material, I disagree with it for the most part. I don't think Fehr had an "end game" from the beginning other than to try and broker the best deal he could through negotiations, holding the decertification card in his back pocket if things got ugly. And I'm sure he was fully aware it could get ugly...but I still don't think he duped the membership and had this all planned out to begin with.

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12-17-2012, 04:37 PM
  #561
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While this concept isn't "foil hat" material, I disagree with it for the most part. I don't think Fehr had an "end game" from the beginning other than to try and broker the best deal he could through negotiations, holding the decertification card in his back pocket if things got ugly. And I'm sure he was fully aware it could get ugly...but I still don't think he duped the membership and had this all planned out to begin with.
When you can't see where you're going... all you find is nothing...

Fehr knows exactly what he feels the players should receive as appropriate compensation - being pro players at the pro level... Fehr knows exactly how he thinks he can get the pro players this... He has to have a plan, IMO, like the NHL must have an idea of what the players should accept, and a plan on how to get the players to accept this... If Fehr's just trying to combat the NHL pressure points through off-the-cuff reactions (i.e. no plan), he's not working in the players best interest, IMO... Everything Fehr does, IMO, is a thought out proactive or reactive response geared towards positioning the players on the path to the desired reward he feels the players are worth...

If Fehr doesn't have an idea on player worth, and never had one, how does he know when he's finally staring at a good offer that won't get better? Or, one that is not reasonable for the players to accept? He can't possibly be working in the interest of the players, if his plan is just "better than now"... There has to be an end point in the leaderships mind... The membership hasn't voted on ANY PROPOSAL yet, and I have to think, this is because no proposal has come close to what he envisions he can get the membership...

Does Fehr just know, whatever offered, it should be more than the present offer? Whatever the tide brings in as a present offer, the players should get more... When does he finally recommend something as good enough to vote on, if he doesn't have, and never had, a clear picture on what this good enough to vote on should be - or how to get there?

It's not about duping the membership... It's about getting membership on side to get for them the most that he possibly can... The hardliners, I imagine, don't take much convincing at all... The moderates, they may have to be guided, sold and persuaded as they see the present unfolding... You're not duping the membership, though, if your goal is to get membership the most you possibly can in the NHL relationship... There is nothing evil with having a plan... There is nothing evil about persuing decertification, or having decertification as a part of a lengthy plan...

I said it before, I like Fehr... It's possible though, that he's not as calculating and competent than I'm giving him credit for... I guess it's possible he's just going with the motions, and accepting whatever the tide brings, with no clear idea what to do with it...

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12-17-2012, 04:39 PM
  #562
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So what concessions have both sides made anyway? It might be helpful to see this summarized in some form. Would this make a long list for either side?

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12-17-2012, 04:51 PM
  #563
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When you can't see where you're going... all you find is nothing...

Fehr knows exactly what he feels the players should receive as appropriate compensation - being pro players at the pro level... Fehr knows exactly how he thinks he can get the pro players this... He has to have a plan, IMO, like the NHL must have an idea of what the players should accept, and a plan on how to get the players to accept this... If Fehr's just trying to combat the NHL pressure points through off-the-cuff reactions (i.e. no plan), he's not working in the players best interest, IMO... Everything Fehr does, IMO, is a thought out proactive or reactive response geared towards positioning the players on the path to the desired reward he feels the players are worth...

If Fehr doesn't have an idea on player worth, and never had one, how does he know when he's finally staring at a good offer that won't get better? Or, one that is not reasonable for the players to accept? He can't possibly be working in the interest of the players, if his plan is just "better than now"... There has to be an end point in the leaderships mind... The membership hasn't voted on ANY PROPOSAL yet, and I have to think, this is because no proposal has come close to what he envisions he can get the membership...

Does Fehr just know, whatever offered, it should be more than the present offer? Whatever the tide brings in as a present offer, the players should get more... When does he finally recommend something as good enough to vote on, if he doesn't have, and never had, a clear picture on what this good enough to vote on should be - or how to get there?

It's not about duping the membership... It's about getting membership on side to get for them the most that he possibly can... The hardliners, I imagine, don't take much convincing at all... The moderates, they may have to be guided, sold and persuaded as they see the present unfolding... You're not duping the membership, though, if your goal is to get membership the most you possibly can in the NHL relationship... There is nothing evil with having a plan... There is nothing evil about persuing decertification...

I said it before, I like Fehr... It's possible though, that he's not as calculating and competent than I'm giving him credit for... I guess he's just going with the motions, and accepting whatever the tide brings, with no clear idea what to do with it...
Fehr might have an idea of what he thinks players are worth, or what they can get, but the players themselves are probably a bit more measured in what they feel they can get or what they feel they should/shouldn't have to give up, ultimately its up to them and not Fehr. I also think they probably have a more centered viewpoint than either Fehr or the owners, I don't think Fehr will manipulate them into cutting their own throats or losing the PR war just to squeak out an extra year on the CBA or something.
Players have always proven somewhat flexible and I don't think this time will be any different, unless we don't see any flexibility from owners when the chips are down.

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12-17-2012, 04:53 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by vanuck View Post
So what concessions have both sides made anyway? It might be helpful to see this summarized in some form. Would this make a long list for either side?
Well, it depends on what you mean by "concessions". This is the biggest issue we're facting, I think, is both sides are negotiating from entirely different positions.

The NHL is bargaining from the point of view of wanting to put their CBA in line with other major sports CBA's, while the NHLPA is bargaining off the last CBA.

So from the NHL's point of view, doing things like keeping salary arbitration the same, and keeping the free agency age the same, they're making concessions. From the PA's point of view, it's not because they were things they already had on the old CBA.

In terms of bargaining off the old CBA, the NHL has given nothing, except maybe a bit on pension, and better revenue sharing.

The PA has "given" 57% of HRR down to 50%, they've given on contract issues (they've agreed to a term limit in some form, as well as a varience rule in some form, although not what the NHL is looking for).

The reason no one's happy is neither side feel like the other have really given anything because of the different positions they're bargaining from.

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12-17-2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
He had an idea, from the start, of the type of reward the players should receive for being pro NHL players... His approach is reward driven... How he approached these negotiations is to best get these rewards - starting from the less short term hardship to the players... This was his end game from the beginning... He's lined it up to get the best deal possible for the players... It just so happens that the end game is, ultimately, decertification, if it gets that far...

Fehr envisioned, from the start, an acceptable end reward, and the best pathway for the players to get to this reward... He'll continue to follow the pathway he set out until the players are pleased enough with the reward presented to them...
The possibility that is rapidly becoming reality is that the reward he's envisioning is wildly out of step with what he actually can realistically get. That was Goodenow's undoing and with his miscalculation went an entire season and ultimately his job. IMHO, Fehr is looking alot more like Goodenow circa 2005 than Goodenow 1995.

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12-17-2012, 04:59 PM
  #566
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Fehr might have an idea of what he thinks players are worth, or what they can get, but the players themselves are probably a bit more measured in what they feel they can get or what they feel they should/shouldn't have to give up, ultimately its up to them and not Fehr. I also think they probably have a more centered viewpoint than either Fehr or the owners, I don't think Fehr will manipulate them into cutting their own throats or losing the PR war just to squeak out an extra year on the CBA or something.
Players have always proven somewhat flexible and I don't think this time will be any different, unless we don't see any flexibility from owners when the chips are down.
I agree...

I guess where I disagree is I don't think Fehr believes that the result of decertification would be the players cutting their own throats or losing the PR war... and he might be right. It's up to the players and the owners to determine when it's time to end this... I think Fehr goes down the map he layed out for as long as the players don't think that what they are receiving is "good enough"... I do think that Fehr knows exactly where he is going though, and he thinks it's a good thing for his membership... I also think he might be right. Unfortunately, for me, what might be best for the players is not what might be best for me (as a fan)... But that might just be because I'm not sure how it will impact the Canucks... In the end, as a Canuck fan, it might be better - as I think the Canucks could do a nice job with attracting talent, not being confined with a CBA...

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12-17-2012, 05:03 PM
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So what concessions have both sides made anyway? It might be helpful to see this summarized in some form. Would this make a long list for either side?
Far and away the biggest concession is the players giving up 7% of revenues. People say that this was a given that HAD to happen, and I agree, it HAD to happen...but just because it HAD to happen doesn't mean that the players shouldn't be well compensated for it. The "make whole" offered by owners ($211m initially) was a mere pittance of the actual value of the 7%, even at the $300m they later offered wasn't a good value for players...it's still a big loss for them. Owners demanded a 10 year deal (out after 8), which is a win for them (not a big win, but a win), especially if they get contract limits to 5 years...which is apparently their "hill they're prepared to die on"...so thats another loss for players no matter what it ends up being because there was no limits previously. I think the only thing where the players end up breaking even is on salary arbitration (stays the same), entry level contracts (stays the same) and UFA age (stays the same)...there is no area where they have gained ground.

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12-17-2012, 05:08 PM
  #568
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I agree...

I guess where I disagree is I don't think Fehr believes that the result of decertification would be the players cutting their own throats or losing the PR war... and he might be right. It's up to the players and the owners to determine when it's time to end this... I think Fehr goes down the map he layed out for as long as the players don't think that what they are receiving is "good enough"... I do think that Fehr knows exactly where he is going though, and he thinks it's a good thing for his membership... I also think he might be right. Unfortunately, for me, what might be best for the players is not what might be best for me (as a fan)... But that might just be because I'm not sure how it will impact the Canucks... In the end, as a Canuck fan, it might be better - as I think the Canucks could do a nice job with attracting talent, not being confined with a CBA...
Either way, it makes for interesting theatre. As much as I would prefer to get this over with and get hockey on the ice and out of negotiating rooms, the thought of a complete reset is an interesting idea to toy around with.

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12-17-2012, 05:09 PM
  #569
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The possibility that is rapidly becoming reality is that the reward he's envisioning is wildly out of step with what he actually can realistically get. That was Goodenow's undoing and with his miscalculation went an entire season and ultimately his job. IMHO, Fehr is looking alot more like Goodenow circa 2005 than Goodenow 1995.
I think, at best, it won't be easy to get... But with the path he laid out, I think that if the players can hold together for as long as possible, the players will get more than what they could get today... even if the players aren't gung ho to actually go through decertification... He's a hardliner, and I think he's real good at his job...

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12-17-2012, 06:25 PM
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12-17-2012, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by I in the Eye View Post
I think, at best, it won't be easy to get... But with the path he laid out, I think that if the players can hold together for as long as possible, the players will get more than what they could get today... even if the players aren't gung ho to actually go through decertification... He's a hardliner, and I think he's real good at his job...
They'll come out ahead factoring in loss of a year's income, a loss of a year at their playing peak, and also the reduction in revenue growth slowed by casual fan apathy after yet another prolonged stoppage?

My suspicion is that Fehr's strategy is that if he follows through, the league will be cowed into blinking the next go-around. How many players will still be playing the next round of negotiations to benefit from it is debatable.

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12-17-2012, 08:49 PM
  #572
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
like baseball games are a good way to get drunk and take a nap ~what an experience~
Wrong.

Baseball crushes hockey for live attending.

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Old
12-17-2012, 08:53 PM
  #573
Canucker
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Originally Posted by The Finnish MacInnis View Post
Wrong.

Baseball crushes hockey for live attending.
Entitled to your opinion, but personally I'd rather watch any kind of hockey before I went to a baseball game. Unless it was a Blue Jays game, I'd probably rather watch curling before I'd go to most baseball games.

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Old
12-17-2012, 08:55 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by The Finnish MacInnis View Post
Wrong.

Baseball crushes hockey for live attending.
It's just occurred to me that I'm misrepresenting myself.

What I really want to say is that baseball is the number one sport to watch live vs watching it on tv. Aka I never watch MLB on tv but live going to games. NHL and NFL is way rather watch on tv.

Actually, I'm still saying that baseball is the best sport to attend live.

Suck it.

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Old
12-17-2012, 09:23 PM
  #575
Verviticus
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Originally Posted by The Finnish MacInnis View Post
Wrong.

Baseball crushes hockey for live attending.
on the other hand, what you're saying here is objectively incorrect. ok cya

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