HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-18-2012, 12:57 AM
  #576
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Finnish MacInnis View Post
Wrong.

Baseball crushes hockey for live attending.
Average of 10 minutes of ball in play equals most boring sport to watch ever. I grew up playing baseball and I don't even watch the World Series now. The enjoyment of being at a live stadium game for baseball has way more to do with sunshine, beer, hot dogs and the fans than anything transpiring on the field.

You are in the wrong forum if you are looking for baseball over hockey supporters.

Nash is online now  
Old
12-18-2012, 01:09 AM
  #577
Nash
Registered User
 
Nash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: North Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,916
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCF23 View Post
Well, it depends on what you mean by "concessions". This is the biggest issue we're facting, I think, is both sides are negotiating from entirely different positions.

The NHL is bargaining from the point of view of wanting to put their CBA in line with other major sports CBA's, while the NHLPA is bargaining off the last CBA.

So from the NHL's point of view, doing things like keeping salary arbitration the same, and keeping the free agency age the same, they're making concessions. From the PA's point of view, it's not because they were things they already had on the old CBA.

In terms of bargaining off the old CBA, the NHL has given nothing, except maybe a bit on pension, and better revenue sharing.

The PA has "given" 57% of HRR down to 50%, they've given on contract issues (they've agreed to a term limit in some form, as well as a varience rule in some form, although not what the NHL is looking for).

The reason no one's happy is neither side feel like the other have really given anything because of the different positions they're bargaining from.
This is the biggest issue. Where are they bargaining from?

You bargain from your opening position, but the framework of negotiation is still the old CBA. The first NHL offer was so far off the old CBA, it was ridiculous. There was nothing in that first offer that was give and take towards the NHLPA.

When you are filing legal documents about bargaining in good faith and this was the opening offer, you are a joke. When you repeatedly give "our best offer" and tell the other side to take it or leave it, and you bring better offers 2 weeks later, you are a joke. When you pull your offers off the table as soon as the other side attempts to negotiate off it, you are a joke. When you break off negotiations as you are getting close because the other side wants to have their chief negotiator present, you are a joke. Bettman can file all the papers in the world claiming the NHLPA is not bargaining in good faith, but how exactly is the league negotiating at all?

Nash is online now  
Old
12-18-2012, 01:17 AM
  #578
timw33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,772
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash View Post
Average of 10 minutes of ball in play equals most boring sport to watch ever. I grew up playing baseball and I don't even watch the World Series now. The enjoyment of being at a live stadium game for baseball has way more to do with sunshine, beer, hot dogs and the fans than anything transpiring on the field.

You are in the wrong forum if you are looking for baseball over hockey supporters.
I only started watching baseball this past October with some co-workers of mine and I love the meta-game involved. It's such an intricate sport and is really quite interesting, a game within a game within a game.

timw33 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 01:21 AM
  #579
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,199
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
I only started watching baseball this past October with some co-workers of mine and I love the meta-game involved. It's such an intricate sport and is really quite interesting, a game within a game within a game.
Yeah. Like I've said before. It's an easy sport to master athletically, but you really have to be thinking every second you are out there. I didn't think much of it when I started playing when I was 14, but after a couple years I really respected the mental aspect of the game. It's not easy. One of the hardest sports mentally.

Reverend Mayhem is online now  
Old
12-18-2012, 01:30 AM
  #580
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 17,972
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Far and away the biggest concession is the players giving up 7% of revenues. People say that this was a given that HAD to happen, and I agree, it HAD to happen...but just because it HAD to happen doesn't mean that the players shouldn't be well compensated for it. The "make whole" offered by owners ($211m initially) was a mere pittance of the actual value of the 7%, even at the $300m they later offered wasn't a good value for players...it's still a big loss for them.
(rough maths)
2011-12 they got $1680m
2012-13 ~1800m ($1636m + ~150-180m make whole)
2013-14 ~1850m (~$1750m +~100m mw)

the players is never getting less than the last year, it's moving forward just at a slower rate than they'd like. The player group is not worse off as a whole, it's just not as well off as it'd like.

me2 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 01:31 AM
  #581
timw33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,772
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Yeah. Like I've said before. It's an easy sport to master athletically, but you really have to be thinking every second you are out there. I didn't think much of it when I started playing when I was 14, but after a couple years I really respected the mental aspect of the game. It's not easy. One of the hardest sports mentally.
And you appreciate how much impact a manager can have, so many important decisions, and then having the personnel to pull off the decisions too.

timw33 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 01:44 AM
  #582
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,199
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
And you appreciate how much impact a manager can have, so many important decisions, and then having the personnel to pull off the decisions too.
Yes. My manager that went the farthest into the playoffs with us was probably the best to play under. Made coming to the park a real treat. Someone you want to play your heart out for. Not to say the other 2 years didn't have good managers, but that team was a real honour to play for.


Last edited by Reverend Mayhem: 12-18-2012 at 01:51 AM.
Reverend Mayhem is online now  
Old
12-18-2012, 02:02 AM
  #583
me2
Seahawks 43
 
me2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Broncos 8
Country: Wallis & Futuna
Posts: 17,972
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Voided contracts stemming from decertification will simply never happen, so any talk that treats it as a realistic possibility is essentially pointless.
I used to believe that but sports leagues are strange beasts and judges make up this stuff as they go along. It may come down to one judge's personal opinion, followed by appeals and so on.

I am looking forward to the first rookie challenging his draft, the first rookie challenging his ELC as illegal.

We could get the hillarious situation where the NHL is supporting the rookie to have his ELC chucked out. Then using that to challenge the validity of RFA arbitration rulings (anti-competitive) , then all RFA contracts.

Under a decertification league who is responsible for a player, the team that signed the contract or the last team holding his contract? If I'm Montreal I am doing my best I hand ball that one back to the NYR. If the Rangers are forced to take him, then that screws up every traded players. Can I terminate contracts of guys in Russia who can't be bothered coming back for a handful of games?

It's an enormous mess to present the courts with. Do over is looking pretty reasonable.

If I was running the league, while that court mess is going on, to avoid the anti-trust suits I'd have the teams play this season out (29 games 1 vs each team + full 4x7 playoffs), you only need to pay the players for 29 games and then cash in on the playoffs. After the season I'd hold a non-binding draft. I'd also offer any teams that wanted to sit out 2013-14 the opportunity. Teams remaining would be required to pick up players on active contracts as a priority. It's only fair to take care of a guy with an active NHL contract first. I could see 6-12 teams opting to sitting out next year.

The important thing is to avoid anti-trust cases by not creating the opportunity.

Quote:
Not only is the NHL arguing from very shaky legal ground, but there is little reason to believe that that's even a reality that the owners would want in the event of decertification going through.
I do agree with that. However stuck between voiding contracts outside a CBA, being sued under anti-trust or forced to play in an anti-trust world - I think the NHL would take voiding the contracts. The contracts could always be unvoided and brought back into existence under a new CBA agreement.

me2 is offline  
Old
12-18-2012, 10:27 AM
  #584
west in the east
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Vancouver
Country: Ireland
Posts: 3,456
vCash: 500
Decertification will achieve nothing. Even dissolution of the union will achieve nothing. A judge will be alive to the negotiation that has been going on and the fact that the NHLPA has been negotiating for the players for decades and that this is a negotiating ploy. He will likely not look kindly on the union for this tactic. It's a waste of time and they should get back to negotiating.

west in the east is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 04:37 AM
  #585
Hammer79
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Kelowna
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,962
vCash: 500
http://business.time.com/2012/12/19/...e-nhl-lockout/

Quote:
After an entire season was voided, the NHL Players Association caved, agreeing to lower its membersí share of revenue to 57%. Peace and harmony have ensued since, but now the owners want an even bigger piece of the pie, claiming financial hardship.

Donít believe them, not for a minute. First, as Iíve written about before, sports team accounting is misleading at best, given that club owners can claim to be losing money when a) the losses are on paper only; b) there are tax benefits from whatever losses happen to be real; and c) the value of their teams continue to rise.
That's the reason there isn't much trust in the accounting.

Quote:
Itís not a coincidence that the most successful North American sports league also has the most rational approach to revenue sharing. Some 60% of the NFLís $11 billion revenue pie is shared, which is why tiny Green Bay, Wisconsin can compete with big bad New York or Chicago. The other two Big Three leagues arenít quite as egalitarian but have improved their models in recent years: MLB teams share nearly a third of local TV revenue, while NBA teams reportedly approach a 50% total revenue share (give or take a few complex calculations).

The NHL, meanwhile, has been sharing 4.5% of its $3.3 billion revenue (with not much more on the table in current talks.)
The NHL is a regionalized league, which lacks a strong league-wide strategy wrt revenue sharing.

Quote:
No, NHL owners should get their act together because their league faces something none of the other major sports do: Russiaís KHL, an aggressive and surly rival league that has long resented how many European players in general and Russians in particular choose to play in North America rather than staying on their home continent. The KHLís finances, like most things Russian, are a little murky, so itís hard to know if the league could seriously compete with the NHL for top talent in the long run. But a surprisingly large number of iced NHLers are now playing in the KHL while they wait out the lockout, including a lot of North Americans.
I disagree with the KHL being a threat to the NHL, they won't be able to compete with the revenues of the NHL once it's up and running. Hockey is popular in Russia, but Soccer is #1 pretty much everywhere in Europe. We know that Canadian fans and fans in the US North, Northeast will come back quickly. It's everywhere else, where they depend on casual fans, that will be at risk from a prolonged lockout.

Hammer79 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 12:44 PM
  #586
Proto
Registered User
 
Proto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,455
vCash: 500
The revenue sharing numbers are wrong in that article, apparently. The 4.5% represents only the actual revenue sharing number (150 million) and ignores the TV deals (350-ish million) and other shared revenue like merchandising. The rest of the article is very good though, even if that error diminishes the impact of the writer's point.

The NHL should at least be on par with the NBA in terms of revenue sharing. The league is making money, so they can't cry poor.

Proto is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 12:53 PM
  #587
luongo321
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9,774
vCash: 50
Home for the holiday break. Where the Streets Have No Names started playing on the radio. I started chanting GO CANUCKS GO and them my mum is like, 'oh! agreement reached?' I hate the lockout.

luongo321 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 01:40 PM
  #588
Timmer44
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Van City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,203
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
Home for the holiday break. Where the Streets Have No Names started playing on the radio. I started chanting GO CANUCKS GO and them my mum is like, 'oh! agreement reached?' I hate the lockout.
Have you ever been tested for Tourettes?

Timmer44 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 01:53 PM
  #589
luongo321
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9,774
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmer44 View Post
Have you ever been tested for Tourettes?
No, I use protection.

luongo321 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 01:57 PM
  #590
Timmer44
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Van City
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,203
vCash: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
No, I use protection.
What's the point? The world is going to end tomorrow anyways...

Timmer44 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 01:58 PM
  #591
luongo321
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9,774
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmer44 View Post
What's the point? The world is going to end tomorrow anyways...
Well, I heard it protects me from becoming a zombie. I have one covering my head right now.

luongo321 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 03:15 PM
  #592
Scottrockztheworld*
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,301
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by luongo321 View Post
Well, I heard it protects me from becoming a zombie. I have one covering my head right now.

Scottrockztheworld* is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 03:26 PM
  #593
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,199
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Good thing the NHL is resorting to cancelling more games and not resorting to actually sitting down and talking to the players. It's going to be really frustrating if they hammer out a deal within the next two weeks when they could have done so months before if they had just negotiated in good faith or if we lose another season due to childish monetary issues.

Reverend Mayhem is online now  
Old
12-20-2012, 03:35 PM
  #594
luongo321
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 9,774
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reverend Mayhem View Post
Good thing the NHL is resorting to cancelling more games and not resorting to actually sitting down and talking to the players. It's going to be really frustrating if they hammer out a deal within the next two weeks when they could have done so months before if they had just negotiated in good faith or if we lose another season due to childish monetary issues.
Yup, totally sucks. I just wanted to see Schneider beast!

luongo321 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 03:58 PM
  #595
JuniorNelson
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: E.Vancouver
Country: Australia-Aboriginal
Posts: 4,706
vCash: 50
PA guessed wrong with thier representitive. There's time to fix that. Otherwise, it really looks bleak. I do not believe Bettman is bluffing, even a little. This has devolved into hatred and each side trying to hurt the other one the most.

They have until the end of the month to resume talks, reach a settlement and sign off on all the details. The Holidays will account for about three days, leaving a week to accomplish this.

I think the announcement of the season's cancellation will result in unprecedented levels of anger in some markets. Vancouver, for example, will see thier window close without being able to compete. They might riot, again.

JuniorNelson is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 04:14 PM
  #596
Canucker
Registered User
 
Canucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Prince Rupert, BC
Posts: 18,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
PA guessed wrong with thier representitive. There's time to fix that. Otherwise, it really looks bleak. I do not believe Bettman is bluffing, even a little. This has devolved into hatred and each side trying to hurt the other one the most.

They have until the end of the month to resume talks, reach a settlement and sign off on all the details. The Holidays will account for about three days, leaving a week to accomplish this.

I think the announcement of the season's cancellation will result in unprecedented levels of anger in some markets. Vancouver, for example, will see thier window close without being able to compete. They might riot, again.
What an absolutely absurd thing to say. Pretty thoughtless.

Canucker is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 04:24 PM
  #597
timw33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,772
vCash: 500
I'd say this season is dead. It will likely take the league the entirety of the next CBA to get back to the level they were last season.

timw33 is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 04:30 PM
  #598
Canucker
Registered User
 
Canucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Prince Rupert, BC
Posts: 18,354
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by timw33 View Post
I'd say this season is dead. It will likely take the league the entirety of the next CBA to get back to the level they were last season.
I still think they are too close to let the season die. There is too much pressure internally from both sides to get something done. When there is no deadline there is no pressure, now we're seeing that the middle of January is likely the deadline so I think they'll put the stubborn indignation aside and hammer something out.

But I also thought they weren't stupid enough to get this far so who knows?

Canucker is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 04:37 PM
  #599
Proto
Registered User
 
Proto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 9,455
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuniorNelson View Post
PA guessed wrong with thier representitive. There's time to fix that. Otherwise, it really looks bleak. I do not believe Bettman is bluffing, even a little. This has devolved into hatred and each side trying to hurt the other one the most.

They have until the end of the month to resume talks, reach a settlement and sign off on all the details. The Holidays will account for about three days, leaving a week to accomplish this.

I think the announcement of the season's cancellation will result in unprecedented levels of anger in some markets. Vancouver, for example, will see thier window close without being able to compete. They might riot, again.
This is just ridiculous on so many levels.

Proto is offline  
Old
12-20-2012, 05:45 PM
  #600
Reverend Mayhem
CRJ + RNH = Sex
 
Reverend Mayhem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Port Coquitlam, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,199
vCash: 940
Send a message via Skype™ to Reverend Mayhem
Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
What an absolutely absurd thing to say. Pretty thoughtless.
People would have to go out of their way to do so, unlike last time when many suburbers crammed the streets to watch game 7 downtown.

Reverend Mayhem is online now  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:18 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.