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Jan 6/13: CBA reached to end the Lockout. Rejoice! (Post#783)

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12-07-2012, 10:08 AM
  #201
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Originally Posted by brownbello View Post
Really?? That what you got out of that?? hahaha Even Kypros had a hard time defending his players last night. Fehr screwed up. And I think that messed it up for everybody.

Dan Murphy ‏@sportsnetmurph
Wow RT @adater: From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in and told us we could get more and to hold out"
If there were any serious cracks in the PA it would be bigger news than some anonymous quote by a single player.

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12-07-2012, 10:12 AM
  #202
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Originally Posted by brownbello View Post
Really?? That what you got out of that?? hahaha Even Kypros had a hard time defending his players last night. Fehr screwed up. And I think that messed it up for everybody.

Dan Murphy ‏@sportsnetmurph
Wow RT @adater: From deep inside players side: "We were ready to play again. But Don came in and told us we could get more and to hold out"
What do you think they hired him to do, advise them to take the first deal the league offers when it's desperate, after the league has been trying to $*&# them over for 6 months? They could hire Joe Blow to do that.

The league expected the players to stand up and applaud and fall all over themselves to sign a deal because they offered an extra 100 million? Sorry, they offer Zach Parise 100 million over lunch. That's 1/33 of a year's revenues, spread over 10 seasons of a CBA. So... 1/333 of revenue is a big "give"?

Excuse me if I'm unimpressed that Nik Kypreos doesn't understand what's going on. I know he's pretty high up there in the hockey intelligentsia


Last edited by Proto: 12-07-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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12-07-2012, 10:14 AM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Of course the union holds and Fehr continues. It wasn't even a good show by the NHL -- I'm not even convinced it was a show at all, to be honest. If this was an internet meme, Fehr is all, "I'm in ur collective heads, bargainin ur brains".

Fehr has somehow managed to consolidate the union to the point where guys like Ryan Miller are yelling at owners in meetings, and the league is pulling deals off tables and running home and petulantly leaving voicemails. I'm sure there are some players that just want to play, but any player that wanted a strong union after the mess of the past 7 years has to be cherishing this.

Why would they fold now?
Why? Cause the players want to play hockey?

Honestly I think both sides are cracking both sides want to make a deal, Fehr is the problem right now, yes he's doing his job at trying to get the best deal for the players but when there is a growing number of players in the PA who are ready to sign off on the deal and play, you're gonna see the PA crack/fold.

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12-07-2012, 10:18 AM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
I've been thinking about this as well, from the perspective of what it will do to the league. Here's how I see it:

A term limit will help ensure that the most deserving players get the loot. Besides helping to eliminate the number of obviously bad contracts, it will generally put player performance up for review more frequently. If the best player in the league signs a deal that expires in 5 years, he still needs to be the best in the league at the end of that term to continue being paid as so. This could actually potentially end up in the superstars getting more - maybe some teams would be willing to pay out the max 20% of team cap hit to one player if the term isn't so long.

It will help the league's weaker sisters be more competitive. The league's most popular teams like the Leafs and the Flyers don't need to worry so much about bad contracts. They can spend to the cap and still be profitable regardless of whether or not they are a winning team. Essentially they can afford to budget a portion of their cap for gambles that don't pan out. Less established teams that are more reliant on on ice success and are subject to internal caps don't have the luxury of being able to take on more term risk.

The insurance angle doesn't really make much sense to me. In fact, it doesn't make sense to me why teams would want to purchase injury insurance in the first place. Why invest in something with negative expected value? Anyone investing in a pro-sports team must have a reasonable tolerance for risk. Perhaps it would make sense for the expansion teams. They could be a little more risk averse and might be more harmed by the increased payroll volatility that would come with operating without insurance, especially if they aren't cap teams and are forced to sign an extra contract to replace a player who's out for more than a year.

I do like the provision that allows a team to resign a player for 2 extra years. Anything that allows a team to increase continuity is a good thing in my book. It's a positive thing for fans when players can stick with one team. I wonder, however, if this system would see a UFA signing a one-year deal with a new team and re-sign for another 7?

Anyway, as we both know, term limits don't make an ounce of difference in a linked system to the total dollar amount being paid out from the league to the players in any given year, so neither side should care too much about this issue. I guess the players might derive a sense of security knowing that a career ending injury or drop in ability will have less of a financial impact. That security comes out of the players' end though - the healthy players end up paying a sort of tax where they get less so injured and under-performing players can continue getting paid. Or maybe they just want the chance to be opportunistic at the end of the next CBA, sign max deals, and then demand that their contracts be "honoured" or "made whole".

In the end though, neither side should care too much about the term limits. Just meet in the middle so games can start: settle at 6 year term-limit with 8 for players that re-sign. Make the CBA 9 years in length with an option at 7. Done and done.
Well, I suppose one could view a demand of 5-year-limits as a return to meritocracy, or it could be viewed as the league attempting to idiot-proof the league. Why would the players go all the way to 5 years from previously having no limit at all? Because the owners can't control themselves? The players were willing to do 10, moderates talked them down to 8, and they will not go lower than that (according to James Mirtle), so they've already moved.

If you want a meritocracy, how about clubs that suck and can't sign good contracts continue to suck and aren't bailed out by a system that creates false competitiveness? That sounds okay to me, anyway.

I also disagree in principle with a system that incentivizes players to stay with the same team: if a team is well managed, players will stay. They don't need built-in term advantages, which will inevitably lead to a spate of contract-swapping sign-and-trade deals like we see in the NBA. Boo-urns.

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12-07-2012, 10:28 AM
  #205
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
No but he did sign it knowing full well he would be destroying Nashville one way or another...
I really hope that's you playing devils advocate.

You think Weber should have declined signing?

Nashville matched, obviously they think they can afford it.

That stance is foolish.

You don't need to make 5 year max contracts to avoid circumvention either. 5% rule fixes this prett easily if you ask me.

The NHL only punished one deal that circumvented the cap, shouldn't they have punished them all and fixed their problem from the get-go?

Probably?

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12-07-2012, 10:34 AM
  #206
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
Why? Cause the players want to play hockey?

Honestly I think both sides are cracking both sides want to make a deal, Fehr is the problem right now, yes he's doing his job at trying to get the best deal for the players but when there is a growing number of players in the PA who are ready to sign off on the deal and play, you're gonna see the PA crack/fold.
What "growing number" of players? The small handful that have spoken out (mostly anonymously)? I bet there's a higher percentage of owners willing to get back to hockey than players. I doubt Aquilini or Illitch are sweating 5 year term limits at night.

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12-07-2012, 10:38 AM
  #207
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Originally Posted by west in the east View Post
The have the Fehr blinders on. And if you're anti-Fehr you must be pro-Betman. Betman is an idiot and bad for the game, but the NHL has successfully make it look like Fehr threw the grenade in this one. Indeed, there are numerous sources which have indicated that is what happened. Does help having Betman come out with his ******* exploding offers after and make a crap situation worse.

Fehr could care less if hockey was played this year. Betman wants to cement his "legacy". You have two egomaniacs who have their own agendas here. At least it seemed that the owners like Burkle and Tannenbam are starting to pull Betman in (or had until now)
This is crazy. Certifiably.

So Fehr negotiated off of a package deal (someone already pointed out negotiations are very rarely take it or leave it package deals).

There are definitely sheep out there.

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12-07-2012, 10:41 AM
  #208
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
This is crazy. Certifiably.

So Fehr negotiated off of a package deal (someone already pointed out negotiations are very rarely take it or leave it package deals).

There are definitely sheep out there.
You just proved my point. Thanks

And it should have read "doesn't help that betman has his exploding offers

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12-07-2012, 10:45 AM
  #209
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Good blog by Cam Charron on The Score: http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2012/1...2-donald-fehr/

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12-07-2012, 10:45 AM
  #210
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The about face support for Bettman and demonization of the players during the lockout makes me want to vomit. Why is it that the fans forget who Bettman is during a lockout? People need to see through that weasel's little act...

The NHLPA has offered everything the league needs to find a deal. They've already agreed to the 50/50 split that the owners want. If Bettman wasn't so intent on breaking the union and punishing the players we could have a deal. The players are the ones who are bucking up and paying for this lockout. The owners have to give them some concessions.

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12-07-2012, 10:47 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
That's the part I don't get from the players side. You know there's going to be another lockout when the next deal expires (no way the owners will let the players have the leverage again like in the early 90s players strike); why not put off that as much as possible?
What was the Canadian dollar at in 2002?

If memory serves me right, approximately $0.60 sounds like its in the ballpark.

A lot has changed in 10 years, I don't understand why people thing a compromise of 8 years with an opt out at 6 is such a slap in the face to owners.

It's called collective bargaining, not one side bullying another.

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12-07-2012, 10:50 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
What "growing number" of players? The small handful that have spoken out (mostly anonymously)? I bet there's a higher percentage of owners willing to get back to hockey than players. I doubt Aquilini or Illitch are sweating 5 year term limits at night.
I bet if the PA voted on that last offer we'd have a deal and would be excited about the season starting, instead of being all angry about this stupid process.

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12-07-2012, 10:53 AM
  #213
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
I bet if the PA voted on that last offer we'd have a deal and would be excited about the season starting, instead of being all angry about this stupid process.
Which you're basing on what, exactly? What if the owners voted on the last PA proposal? It's impossible to know what 700 players are thinking right now. They also pay Donald Fehr to counsel them, which, you know, is what he's doing. If I was in court and about to do something stupid and my lawyer was like "hey, hold on for a second", I'd probably listen to him.

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12-07-2012, 11:02 AM
  #214
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Which you're basing on what, exactly? What if the owners voted on the last PA proposal? It's impossible to know what 700 players are thinking right now. They also pay Donald Fehr to counsel them, which, you know, is what he's doing. If I was in court and about to do something stupid and my lawyer was like "hey, hold on for a second", I'd probably listen to him.
Let's hope Fehr is doing it in the best interests of the players. It seems like the players in that room were completely blindsided by what happened last night. They were all cheerful and excited when Fehr said they were close, and 20 minutes later, the rug got pulled out of them.

If what Bettman said about negotiations the past two days are true (NHLPA havent said otherwise), the players yesterday either were delusional, putting on an act, or they're getting false information from the Fehr's.

Either way, it doesn't really shine a good light on them, IMO.

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12-07-2012, 11:10 AM
  #215
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Originally Posted by west in the east View Post
You just proved my point. Thanks

And it should have read "doesn't help that betman has his exploding offers
What point.

That there are gullible folks falling for owners PR spins and have been doing so roughly every 7 years.

Fehr stating they were close wasn't wrong.

The point I was calling crazy was you suggested Bettman and he owners succeeded here in the pr spin....I think that's crazy. I think only foolish people fall for that ****.

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12-07-2012, 11:14 AM
  #216
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
If what Bettman said about negotiations the past two days are true (NHLPA havent said otherwise), the players yesterday either were delusional, putting on an act, or they're getting false information from the Fehr's.

Either way, it doesn't really shine a good light on them, IMO.
The players were in the room negotiating. What false information could they possibly be getting? They were happy because the NHL agreed on Make Whole and pensions and it looked like they just had to negotiate a few more points, before the NHL decided to go melodramtically die on a hill.

The deal is there. It's obvious. Bettman it's the one whose ego isn't being served: that's why he keeps making "take the whole deal or nothing" offers. Fehr seems to be so far into the league's psyche that they can't stomach negotiating a deal that makes both parties look reasonable.

Look, the players are giving the league a ton in exchange, so far, for pretty much nothing. If a deal happened, the league should be standing up to thank Don Fehr and the players are helping them "fix" the league the owners apparently broke. Instead they're acting like the players owe it to them. It's an off-putting air of entitlement that makes them look like a bunch of out-touch plutocrats. Probably why they hired Frank Luntz -- he specializes in helping those sort of people out.

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12-07-2012, 11:14 AM
  #217
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Originally Posted by silvercanuck View Post
The about face support for Bettman and demonization of the players during the lockout makes me want to vomit. Why is it that the fans forget who Bettman is during a lockout? People need to see through that weasel's little act...

The NHLPA has offered everything the league needs to find a deal. They've already agreed to the 50/50 split that the owners want. If Bettman wasn't so intent on breaking the union and punishing the players we could have a deal. The players are the ones who are bucking up and paying for this lockout. The owners have to give them some concessions.
It's shocking that people has such short memories.

The league hasnt given up a thing, not one thing.

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12-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Which you're basing on what, exactly? What if the owners voted on the last PA proposal? It's impossible to know what 700 players are thinking right now. They also pay Donald Fehr to counsel them, which, you know, is what he's doing. If I was in court and about to do something stupid and my lawyer was like "hey, hold on for a second", I'd probably listen to him.
Just the feeling I get from reading tweets from media who have talked to players.

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12-07-2012, 11:16 AM
  #219
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Originally Posted by kanuck87 View Post
Let's hope Fehr is doing it in the best interests of the players. It seems like the players in that room were completely blindsided by what happened last night. They were all cheerful and excited when Fehr said they were close, and 20 minutes later, the rug got pulled out of them.

If what Bettman said about negotiations the past two days are true (NHLPA havent said otherwise), the players yesterday either were delusional, putting on an act, or they're getting false information from the Fehr's.

Either way, it doesn't really shine a good light on them, IMO.
"if what Bettman said was true..."

Hahahahahahahabahaha

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12-07-2012, 11:22 AM
  #220
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That if I'm critical of Fehr I must be nuts. I hate betman and the way he's run this negotiation, but to say that I'm just falling for PR in criticizing Fehr is a very poor and myopic argument taken by many fehr supporters. He is equally to blame for this mess and has looked equally foolish. I am pissed at the whole thing. That said, I don't understand why the players would submarine a potential deal over 5 years contracts (which only hurts the small percent of players who gets them) and a 10 year cba. The players could be looking at a net loss if a season is lost over this. Then betman acts like a petulant child because Fehr has shifted the posts again which sets the process back. It's incredibly frustrating and doesn't mean I'm a sheep because I am critical of Fehr.

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12-07-2012, 11:23 AM
  #221
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
"if what Bettman said was true..."

Hahahahahahahabahaha
Do you have anything to prove otherwise? I'm only going by what he says, and the NHLPA hasnt given a response yet.

Just because it came out of his mouth, it doesnt neccessarily means it's false. All the analysts on TSN and sportsnet seemed to corroborate what Bettman said, unless you want to be a conspiracy theorist about it. Even Aaron Ward, the pro-NHLPA analyst on TSN, didnt bother to dispute what Bettman said about negotiations the last two days.

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12-07-2012, 11:24 AM
  #222
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It's shocking that people has such short memories.

The league hasnt given up a thing, not one thing.
Compared to the last CBA, yes the league has not given up a thing. Compared to where both sides started then they have given up a decent amount. It's all about spin.

I will say the NHL and NHLPA's opposing ideas on CBA length and contract term limits is quite hilariously contradictive. Players are willing to sign long term contracts but not willing to sign a longer term CBA. Owners are willing to sign a long term CBA but not willing to allow long term contracts over 5-7 years?

Also Bettman saying the sides are far apart, is wrong. The 2 major issues are CBA length and contract term limits which are not that far apart.

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12-07-2012, 11:24 AM
  #223
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
Just the feeling I get from reading tweets from media who have talked to players.
You could be right that a large percentage of players whose short-term interests would be served by returning to hockey right now would have voted yes, but it's Don Fehr's job to counsel them. That isn't railroading a deal or driving the process into a ditch: it's him doing his job, as they hired him to do.

The players aren't making unreasonable demands. They're fighting hard to keep what they have -- what the owners are trying to take, despite record growth and revenues. It's not Fehr's job to make a deal just for Sidney Crosby and Jason Garrison: it's also his job to make a deal for players that aren't in the league yet, won't be in the league for 5 years, and might get one shot at a big deal before a concussion ends their career (and possibly irrevocably alters their quality of life).

This isn't a broken system, just one that needed tweaking. It's the over-blown rhetoric from the league and take-it-or-leave-it approach that has made the process more prolonged and difficult than it needed to be, in my opinion.

Gary Bettman should have had a few conversations with Bud Selig about whether it's wise to call Fehr's bluff.

And, for the record, there were many media reports yesterday that players involved in the process have never been prouder to be part of the union and are behind Fehr 100%, so who knows. That's a lot of cats to herd.


Last edited by Proto: 12-07-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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12-07-2012, 11:41 AM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
You could be right that a large percentage of players whose short-term interests would be served by returning to hockey right now would have voted yes, but it's Don Fehr's job to counsel them. That isn't railroading a deal or driving the process into a ditch: it's him doing his job, as they hired him to do.

The players aren't making unreasonable demands. They're fighting hard to keep what they have -- what the owners are trying to take, despite record growth and revenues. It's not Fehr's job to make a deal just for Sidney Crosby and Jason Garrison: it's also his job to make a deal for players that aren't in the league yet, won't be in the league for 5 years, and might get one shot at a big deal before a concussion ends their career (and possibly irrevocably alters their quality of life).

This isn't a broken system, just one that needed tweaking. It's the over-blown rhetoric from the league and take-it-or-leave-it approach that has made the process more prolonged and difficult than it needed to be, in my opinion.

Gary Bettman should have had a few conversations with Bud Selig about whether it's wise to call Fehr's bluff.

And, for the record, there were many media reports yesterday that players involved in the process have never been prouder to be part of the union and are behind Fehr 100%, so who knows. That's a lot of cats to herd.
Both sides have taken aproaches to this negotiation that have prolonged the process and made it more difficult than it should be. The PA has stalled talks and pushed the owners to the brink multiple times with smaller demands that were designed to annoy owners.

There as many media reports about solidarity on the players side as reports that players were ready to sign the deal. Both reports could be right.

My guess is that we have one more last ditch attempt within a week, where both sides just say Screw it, and either sign a CBA or we will see the players decertify and the future of the NHL will be jeopardy.

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12-07-2012, 12:12 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by crazycanuck View Post
There as many media reports about solidarity on the players side as reports that players were ready to sign the deal. Both reports could be right.
Probably could say the same about the owners but you won't hear about that as they've been muzzled - any attempts at not towing the company line gets put down fast (look at what Jacobs yapped at the Jets representative when they spoke up).

A blast from the 80s/cold war days....just substitute the two "main characters" in the following video for Bettman & Fehr (the "audiance" in the video is us, the fans):



lol...maybe someone who is so inclined can somehow insert those two people in the video...


Last edited by Barney Gumble: 12-07-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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