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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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12-07-2012, 01:12 PM
  #251
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Originally Posted by alkurtz View Post
Though many players are millionaires, they too are workers and this dispute is a classic case of bosses vs workers and who is more entitled to the fruits of their effort, toil, and talent.

I don't think this is a classic case at all. This, in essence, is one union against another: a union of workers vs. a union of owners. In a normal situation, my argument would be, "If you are underpaid here, why don't you go to the next company and get paid more. And if nobody is willing to pay you more, then maybe your idea that you deserve more is nothing more than your desire, not reality."

But here this argument can't be made. Players can get more on an open market, so the owners created their own union.

In a classic case, you have collective bargaining on the union side and individual bargaining by the owner. Here we see both sides bargaining collectively.

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12-07-2012, 01:31 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by RGY View Post
I think chances of a season are gone.

BS. It's just a negotiating tactic. Each side realizes that whether they settle now or in a week, the season will still begin on December 26, so what's the difference? Let's grand stand and see if the other side blinks.

As soon as the clocks starts ticking with the season being possibly delayed beyond Dec. 26, they will settle.

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12-07-2012, 01:31 PM
  #253
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Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
BS. It's just a negotiating tactic. Each side realizes that whether they settle now or in a week, the season will still begin on December 26, so what's the difference? Let's grand stand and see if the other side blinks.

As soon as the clocks starts ticking with the season being possibly delayed beyond Dec. 26, they will settle.
there needs to be a training camp. the longer this goes, the more games are canceled. i dont see it the same way you do.

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12-07-2012, 01:35 PM
  #254
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Originally Posted by RL605 View Post
Am I the only who finds these "#lockoutproblems" hashtag tweets by players, disgusting?

Seriously, these players tweeting pics on beautiful vacations and such.."lockoutproblems"


Unbelievable.
Whatever, Jay-Z has 99 problems and he has more money than any of them.

edit: forgot he got married. 100 problems.

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12-07-2012, 01:39 PM
  #255
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http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/ran...bettmans-insis

Pat Leonard breaks down how far the two sides are on main issues. Spoiler: its not far apart.

I still maintain there's a slim chance they shut the season down.

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12-07-2012, 01:39 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
Whatever, Jay-Z has 99 problems and he has more money than any of them.

edit: forgot he got married. 100 problems.
101: Elderly women not recognizing him on the subway.

Though I gotta say, nothing makes me believe in the plight of the players like Brandon Prust tweeting pictures from a golf course.

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Old
12-07-2012, 01:43 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
I guess James Dolan is busy producing the 12-12-12 Sandy Relief concert at MSG (an excellent cause btw - and an All Star lineup for the ages featuring JON BON JOVI, BILLY JOEL, ALICIA KEYS, PAUL McCARTNEY + ?, BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN & THE E STREET BAND, ROGER WATERS +??, KANYE WEST, THE ROLLING STONES AND THE WHO!!) and forgot to crash the other owners little debacle In NYC the other day. Too bad...
Jealous of all of you that can attend this Woodstockish Jamboree - ENJOY IT!
He's also too busy enjoying the Knicks being one of the best teams in the NBA

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12-07-2012, 01:45 PM
  #258
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Per Aaron Ward (here, here, here and here):

Quote:
On the CBA negotiations breaking down and questions over Don Fehr joining the meetings Thursday, according to NHLPA source,"The players agreed to the owners request for a players/owners meeting.They didn't agree to negotiate a CBA with seasoned negotiators on the owners' side without their legal team in the room.Players understand that while they are smart,this is not their area of expertise which is why they have hired seasoned negotiators to help represent them." #TSN
Fair point. That's really just a talking point for the league. Like Fehr's: "We were willing to play the season while negotiating". No one takes them seriously.

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12-07-2012, 01:54 PM
  #259
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https://twitter.com/JVReemer21/statu...34992092565504
Quote:
Not only that @6ErikJohnson , labor peace in baseball for last 20 years!
Well 18. There was a point the NHL went 10 years of labor peace as well. Fehr is 3 for 6 for work stoppages as leader of a union. Bettman is 3 for 4. Only two of the big 4 sports to not award a championship were because of 1994 MLB strike (initiated by Fehr) and 2004-05 NHL lockout (initiated by Bettman).

Cleary neither have an aversion to work stoppages.

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12-07-2012, 01:56 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by Blueshirt Believer View Post
Sure, but we are getting past the point of long "cooling" periods. Eventually, the NHL is going to call off the season.
A good business man can make a point, take a stand, or whatever it should be called. But a good business man will never get personal. Never.

I just don't see the point for the league to take a stand here as opposed to like sign a 8 y CBA. Like, what do I know, but I just don't see the potential gain.

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12-07-2012, 02:02 PM
  #261
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Dbl post


Last edited by DutchShamrock: 12-07-2012 at 02:11 PM.
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12-07-2012, 02:04 PM
  #262
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
there needs to be a training camp. the longer this goes, the more games are canceled. i dont see it the same way you do.
In 1995, the training camp went on for 7 days with 9 days total from the last day of negotiations to the first game. That means they can settle on December 16, do a training camp from Dec. 17 to Dec. 24, off day on Christmas, and first game on December 26.

There's absolutely no reason for them to settle in the next 10 day. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. If one side or the other surrenders right now, their representative (Fehr or Bettman) should be fired for incompetence.

It's possible they will reach a settlement before Dec. 16, but only if each side moves, not if one side surrenders. More likely, we'll see a lot of grandstanding because there's nothing to be lost by doing this. They will sign something in about a week, give or take a day.

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12-07-2012, 02:08 PM
  #263
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@walsha: I hear NYR owner James Dolan wanted into the meeting in the worst way but Gary and Jacobs wouldn't let him in." Ridiculous

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12-07-2012, 02:11 PM
  #264
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Originally Posted by MrEctions View Post
@walsha: I hear NYR owner James Dolan wanted into the meeting in the worst way but Gary and Jacobs wouldn't let him in." Ridiculous
Could you post a link? Not seeing that.

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12-07-2012, 02:15 PM
  #265
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Could you post a link? Not seeing that.
https://twitter.com/6ErikJohnson/sta...18399113367552

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12-07-2012, 02:18 PM
  #266
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Originally Posted by BBKers View Post
I guess James Dolan is busy producing the 12-12-12 Sandy Relief concert at MSG (an excellent cause btw - and an All Star lineup for the ages featuring JON BON JOVI, BILLY JOEL, ALICIA KEYS, PAUL McCARTNEY + ?, BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN & THE E STREET BAND, ROGER WATERS +??, KANYE WEST, THE ROLLING STONES AND THE WHO!!) and forgot to crash the other owners little debacle In NYC the other day. Too bad...
Jealous of all of you that can attend this Woodstockish Jamboree - ENJOY IT!
I wish. Tickets were snatched up by scalpers instantly.

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12-07-2012, 02:39 PM
  #267
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Fellow Canadiens player Brandon Prust tweeted his reaction to the recent turn of events. "I'm done caring," he wrote. "We keep moving and giving...This 1 way street sucks."
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411154

Brandon Prust. 4 yr/$10M contract.

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12-07-2012, 02:46 PM
  #268
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Originally Posted by Beacon View Post
In 1995, the training camp went on for 7 days with 9 days total from the last day of negotiations to the first game. That means they can settle on December 16, do a training camp from Dec. 17 to Dec. 24, off day on Christmas, and first game on December 26.

There's absolutely no reason for them to settle in the next 10 day. Everyone needs to take a deep breath and relax. If one side or the other surrenders right now, their representative (Fehr or Bettman) should be fired for incompetence.

It's possible they will reach a settlement before Dec. 16, but only if each side moves, not if one side surrenders. More likely, we'll see a lot of grandstanding because there's nothing to be lost by doing this. They will sign something in about a week, give or take a day.
and you don't think there might be some difficulty in organizing the return of all the players overseas? im sure not everyone can literally drop everything at the push of a button and be in training camp by the next day.

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12-07-2012, 02:53 PM
  #269
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and you don't think there might be some difficulty in organizing the return of all the players overseas? im sure not everyone can literally drop everything at the push of a button and be in training camp by the next day.
I think that whole schedule is unrealistic and aggressive.

But with that said, the guys playing every day in Europe are less likely to need a full training camp.

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12-07-2012, 03:02 PM
  #270
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Here's my question, if they are SO concerned about ending the lockout (per Bettman, we want to get back on the ice!), why do you keep dolan out? He was instrumental in ending the NBA lockout.

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12-07-2012, 03:06 PM
  #271
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Here's my question, if they are SO concerned about ending the lockout (per Bettman, we want to get back on the ice!), why do you keep dolan out? He was instrumental in ending the NBA lockout.
Because Bettman is a guy that I could envision holding grudges.

And Dolan got into a fight with him over a website 6 years ago.

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12-07-2012, 03:09 PM
  #272
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Yeah, the insistence to alienate owners like Dolan still bothers me. Just because his organization doesn't need to be propped up by the new CBA doesn't mean he's still not a part of Gary's constituency.

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12-07-2012, 03:10 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think that whole schedule is unrealistic and aggressive.

But with that said, the guys playing every day in Europe are less likely to need a full training camp.

It's the same exact schedule they did in 1995, with the exception being that we are adding an extra day for Christmas, making it a less aggressive schedule than in 1995.

Keep in mind that it normally takes another couple of days for the lawyers to go through all the stuff once there's a basic agreement, and that would be the time for players to return from Europe.

Even if they wish to have a couple more days, that still isn't a reason to surrender today. They can just as easily sign the agreement on, say, December 12, give players 2-3 days to return, do a training camp for 10 days from Dec. 15 to Dec. 24, and they will have plenty of time to start the season on Dec. 26.

This calendar allows players and teams to grandstand for another 5 days without any consequences.

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12-07-2012, 03:35 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Tomas Sandstrom 28 View Post
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411154

Brandon Prust. 4 yr/$10M contract.
loved the guy as a Ranger but that deal is ridiculous and he needs to stop posting things like that on freaking twitter.

Asham vs Prust is going to be a hoot. It will happen...........someday

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Old
12-07-2012, 03:36 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
Here's my question, if they are SO concerned about ending the lockout (per Bettman, we want to get back on the ice!), why do you keep dolan out? He was instrumental in ending the NBA lockout.
because bettman isn't interested in a deal other than his own. he's said it atleast 20 times. this isn't a negotations, you take our offer or don't.

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