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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-10-2012, 05:50 AM
  #401
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Hopefully this next time will be the final group of meetings to push it over the goal line.

They met in October where the NHL made their 50/50 proposal and make whole with the players paying for it. Maybe if the NHL was funding the make whole in that proposal,there could have been some traction.

They meet the first week in November. NHL put $211M into make whole.

The week of Thanksgiving,the PA made their proposal at 50/50 with the clause about their share not dropping from the previous year if its lower.

Then there was last week.

You don't hear the NHL complaining about that clause so the PA probably dropped it.

The PA doesn't have office space anymore in Manhattan. They probably leased space until December 1 thinking the lockout would be over. The NHLPA used space at the Westin on 43rd near 8th last week. There are plenty of empty offices to lease in NY.

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12-10-2012, 05:52 AM
  #402
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so sick of people like you just placing the blame on all of his shoulders. its not that simple. all parties involved are responsible. bettman, hardline owners, moderate owners, the fehr's, hardline players, the 4th liners. they are all responsible. **** all of them is more like it
I'm so sick of people like you doing the "pox on both your houses" false equivalency bull ****. You're the reason the owners continue to be able to **** all over the place and get you saps to believe half of it came from the players. The players have been giving, and giving, the owners taking and taking. And all this is as the owners have seen revenues go up each year since the last CBA and now they have record profits.

As others have pointed out they're close right now, thanks to the NHLPA. They've given up a lot of money. It's such a canard that they're being selfish because they won't give up even more. There's no shared sacrifice right now, and the players have been okay with that. But that doesn't give the owners license to **** them. The owners walked out when the players said basically, Hey we think we're close but we're not educated lawyers or businessmen so we just want to run it by the guy we actually hired to do this stuff and see what he thinks. And the owners said **** that and left. That's the biggest joke of the whole thing. The owners trying to break the union instead of making a deal.

And for all the garbage going around saying how rich the players are already, but in particular the stuff aimed at the 3rd and 4th liners you have no idea what you're talking about. Sure they make a lot of money yearly, but they're only going to make that money for a few years. Many of them have sacrificed an education to have their shot to play so there's a good chance most of the money they make in their lifetimes will be over those few years. Plus there's tremendous injury risk. And as for "they're just playing a game," no they're not. They work out longer and harder than most of you have ever even dreamed of. That's not to say they don't have great lives, they do. But don't pretend they don't work their ***** off and don't pretend they're all living it up with the richest of the rich for the rest of their lives.

Also at the end of the day HRR gets divided to two groups, the guys we watch and the guys who just happen to own the stuff. We watch for the players, not the owners. I know I want my money going to Lundqvist over Dolan.

edit: and of course it's absurd to see the same owners who just gave out huge money and term contracts *****ing about how they can't afford those deals and how the terms should be significantly limited. No one ****ing made you give those deals you ********ers. How disingenuous was it for the Wild owner to give those two huge deals out and then like a week later play poorman? Very disingenuous.

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12-10-2012, 07:01 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
I'm so sick of people like you doing the "pox on both your houses" false equivalency bull ****. You're the reason the owners continue to be able to **** all over the place and get you saps to believe half of it came from the players. The players have been giving, and giving, the owners taking and taking. And all this is as the owners have seen revenues go up each year since the last CBA and now they have record profits.

As others have pointed out they're close right now, thanks to the NHLPA. They've given up a lot of money. It's such a canard that they're being selfish because they won't give up even more. There's no shared sacrifice right now, and the players have been okay with that. But that doesn't give the owners license to **** them. The owners walked out when the players said basically, Hey we think we're close but we're not educated lawyers or businessmen so we just want to run it by the guy we actually hired to do this stuff and see what he thinks. And the owners said **** that and left. That's the biggest joke of the whole thing. The owners trying to break the union instead of making a deal.

And for all the garbage going around saying how rich the players are already, but in particular the stuff aimed at the 3rd and 4th liners you have no idea what you're talking about. Sure they make a lot of money yearly, but they're only going to make that money for a few years. Many of them have sacrificed an education to have their shot to play so there's a good chance most of the money they make in their lifetimes will be over those few years. Plus there's tremendous injury risk. And as for "they're just playing a game," no they're not. They work out longer and harder than most of you have ever even dreamed of. That's not to say they don't have great lives, they do. But don't pretend they don't work their ***** off and don't pretend they're all living it up with the richest of the rich for the rest of their lives.

Also at the end of the day HRR gets divided to two groups, the guys we watch and the guys who just happen to own the stuff. We watch for the players, not the owners. I know I want my money going to Lundqvist over Dolan.

edit: and of course it's absurd to see the same owners who just gave out huge money and term contracts *****ing about how they can't afford those deals and how the terms should be significantly limited. No one ****ing made you give those deals you ********ers. How disingenuous was it for the Wild owner to give those two huge deals out and then like a week later play poorman? Very disingenuous.
Chances are this was posted from an IPAD at an occupy wall street rally.

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12-10-2012, 08:28 AM
  #404
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Bettman willingly stayed out of process this past week ,, it was Fehr who couldn't keep his ego in check and his advice to players to reject latest offer "To get more" and lie to fans/media at press conference were tactical errors IMO
Not to say the players are unqualified to participate in these negotiations but don't you think if you take out the 4 principal negotiators that the owners are far more qualified in negotiations than the players The owners will always go for the option of keeping the PA leaders out of the room as it gives them a distinct advantage. I am not on the players side but Bettman and the owners have a worthy negotiating adversary in Fehr and they have not faced that before, especially with Goodenow, and it madly frustrates them. Plus Daly was involved which is almost the same as Bettman.

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12-10-2012, 09:25 AM
  #405
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Chances are this was posted from an IPAD at an occupy wall street rally.
Hahaaaaa. Brilliant response.

Theres so much wrong with that post, it nearly made my eyes bleed.

To be honest, I dont know how anyone could be pro-anything at this point, except for pro-deal.

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12-10-2012, 09:28 AM
  #406
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Easy with the tension guys.


Last edited by RGY: 12-10-2012 at 09:34 AM.
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12-10-2012, 09:32 AM
  #407
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If you can't respond without hurling an insult at someone, don't even bother posting.

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12-10-2012, 09:42 AM
  #408
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And for all the garbage going around saying how rich the players are already, but in particular the stuff aimed at the 3rd and 4th liners you have no idea what you're talking about. Sure they make a lot of money yearly, but they're only going to make that money for a few years. Many of them have sacrificed an education to have their shot to play so there's a good chance most of the money they make in their lifetimes will be over those few years. Plus there's tremendous injury risk. And as for "they're just playing a game," no they're not. They work out longer and harder than most of you have ever even dreamed of. That's not to say they don't have great lives, they do. But don't pretend they don't work their ***** off and don't pretend they're all living it up with the richest of the rich for the rest of their lives.
3 years @ the NHL minumum = $1,575,000

It would take an average person, making the median household income in the US a total of 37 years to earn

you're a silly willy if you think the fans should feel sorry for the players here


*edited to be more friendly*

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12-10-2012, 09:46 AM
  #409
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From: @mirtle
Sent: Dec 10, 2012 9:10a

Westgarth says the four new owners brought into talks last week didn't have a good handle of what was proposed http://t.co/gzYpltKs

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12-10-2012, 09:47 AM
  #410
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Big 4 need to be IN the room.

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12-10-2012, 10:10 AM
  #411
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Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
From: @mirtle
Sent: Dec 10, 2012 9:10a

Westgarth says the four new owners brought into talks last week didn't have a good handle of what was proposed http://t.co/gzYpltKs

sent via UberSocial for BlackBerry
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Perhaps only Don Fehr should be in the room? No one else seems to understand how close the two parties really are.

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12-10-2012, 10:10 AM
  #412
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Chances are this was posted from an IPAD at an occupy wall street rally.
Response of the month - possibly year...

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12-10-2012, 10:30 AM
  #413
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Big 4 need to be IN the room.
The meetings without Fehr and Bettman last week never had a chance. Im surprised and shocked the PA agreed to them anyway. It was designed to be savvy businessmen bamboozling the players into a deal from the get-go.

Bettman feigning outrage when Fehr injected himself back into the proceedings was a nice touch.

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12-10-2012, 11:36 AM
  #414
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Originally Posted by NewYorkStranger View Post
Chances are this was posted from an IPAD at an occupy wall street rally.
Nice response gramps, too bad it doesn't actually address any substance

Quote:
Originally Posted by mullichicken25 View Post
3 years @ the NHL minumum = $1,575,000

It would take an average person, making the median household income in the US a total of 37 years to earn

you're a silly willy if you think the fans should feel sorry for the players here


*edited to be more friendly*
Why would you compare it to the average person? They're professional athletes... They're the best at what they do. Plus the risk of injury in what they do is a hell of a lot higher than the average worker, especially with this concussion stuff these guys are putting their mental health for the rest of their lives on the line here. Realize I'm not saying they're heroes or they're selfless for doing so, but it's foolish to pretend they're just assured the good life once they get that first pro contract. Especially since we're mostly new yorkers here, 1.5 million isn't enough to last you 40 years here (assuming a middle class lifestyle). And it goes back to who deserves the money more, them or the owners. Because that's what you're looking at. You think Dolan should get more money instead?

I never said the fans should feel sorry for the players. I said the fans should be on the players side, because they're in the right and the owners in the wrong within this labor dispute. And by refusing to take sides you're letting the owners pull the **** they're pulling. Remember even the basics of what's going on, it's a lockout not a strike.

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12-10-2012, 11:42 AM
  #415
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I never said the fans should feel sorry for the players. I said the fans should be on the players side, because they're in the right and the owners in the wrong within this labor dispute.
Ill be honest. I stopped reading your first post when I hit this:

Quote:
And all this is as the owners have seen revenues go up each year since the last CBA and now they have record profits.
Why would you go on such a pro-union rant when you have little to no idea regarding what you're talking about?

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12-10-2012, 11:42 AM
  #416
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Steve Fehr and Bill Daly were in the room. The two main guys have to be there. No one is asking Bettman marry Fehr. Hammer out the CBA. Fehr will help find his replacement and he will retire. The NHL will never have to deal with him again. I read a comment from one of the players last week. They are not lawyers. They hired Fehr to negotiate for them. He needs to be in the room. Then you have 4 owners in Burkle,Vinik,Chipman and Tannenbaum who weren't part of any talks and they're thrust into the role of negotiating for the NHL. The PA backed off their demand which irritated so many people. From: @cotsonika
Sent: Dec 10, 2012 8:59a

Important detail from last week: NHLPA backed off proposal that players' share never go backward starting in Year 2.

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12-10-2012, 11:43 AM
  #417
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Nice response gramps, too bad it doesn't actually address any substance



Why would you compare it to the average person? They're professional athletes... They're the best at what they do. Plus the risk of injury in what they do is a hell of a lot higher than the average worker, especially with this concussion stuff these guys are putting their mental health for the rest of their lives on the line here. Realize I'm not saying they're heroes or they're selfless for doing so, but it's foolish to pretend they're just assured the good life once they get that first pro contract. Especially since we're mostly new yorkers here, 1.5 million isn't enough to last you 40 years here (assuming a middle class lifestyle). And it goes back to who deserves the money more, them or the owners. Because that's what you're looking at. You think Dolan should get more money instead?
it should be even, seeing as you know, the owners take all the risk buying the franchise, pay all the utility bills, all the upfront costs, all employee salaries. the players play. all things considered, maybe dolan and the owners shuold get more money, but 50-50 is fair.

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12-10-2012, 11:44 AM
  #418
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Nice response gramps, too bad it doesn't actually address any substance



Why would you compare it to the average person? They're professional athletes... They're the best at what they do. Plus the risk of injury in what they do is a hell of a lot higher than the average worker, especially with this concussion stuff these guys are putting their mental health for the rest of their lives on the line here. Realize I'm not saying they're heroes or they're selfless for doing so, but it's foolish to pretend they're just assured the good life once they get that first pro contract. Especially since we're mostly new yorkers here, 1.5 million isn't enough to last you 40 years here (assuming a middle class lifestyle). And it goes back to who deserves the money more, them or the owners. Because that's what you're looking at. You think Dolan should get more money instead?

I never said the fans should feel sorry for the players. I said the fans should be on the players side, because they're in the right and the owners in the wrong within this labor dispute. And by refusing to take sides you're letting the owners pull the **** they're pulling. Remember even the basics of what's going on, it's a lockout not a strike.
Why? In what other business do workers get 57% of total income and pay none of the costs of production?

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12-10-2012, 11:49 AM
  #419
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it should be even, seeing as you know, the owners take all the risk buying the franchise, pay all the utility bills, all the upfront costs, all employee salaries. the players play. all things considered, maybe dolan and the owners shuold get more money, but 50-50 is fair.
You've hit on a key aspect here.

And it can be argued that hockey, the niche sport that it is, gets the least mileage out of marketing the players.

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12-10-2012, 11:51 AM
  #420
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You've hit on a key aspect here.

And it can be argued that hockey, the niche sport that it is, gets the least mileage out of marketing the players.
well the players themselves aren't the personalities that you see in the NBA or MLB or NFL. hockey players are much more humble down to earth guys.

now the NHL's marketing team has to do a much better job marketing the players but that's for another discussion altogether.

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12-10-2012, 11:52 AM
  #421
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it should be even, seeing as you know, the owners take all the risk buying the franchise, pay all the utility bills, all the upfront costs, all employee salaries. the players play. all things considered, maybe dolan and the owners shuold get more money, but 50-50 is fair.
The players put the people in the seats. Unless you happen to know people who come to the arena to watch video of owners writing checks on the jumbotron.

This isn't a business model where there are thousands of viable candidates. In order for this model to be successful, you need the best of the best of a very small talent pool. You have to pay for that to happen. That's the way professional sports work. This mantra of "Oh, the players should be bending over. All they do is play hockey." is absurd. They spend their youth working towards the goal of playing hockey, and then have on average 5-6 years to earn enough money to give their families a good life. After that, it's a crap shoot. Jimmy Dolan will own the Rangers long after Stu Bickel retires.

The owners need the players as much as the players need the owners. Perhaps even more so.

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12-10-2012, 11:55 AM
  #422
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well the players themselves aren't the personalities that you see in the NBA or MLB or NFL. hockey players are much more humble down to earth guys.

now the NHL's marketing team has to do a much better job marketing the players but that's for another discussion altogether.
Sure they can do a better job, but how much?

And it goes beyond the personalities. Hockey is a game where its players are covered head to toe in equipment. Not easy for a casual fan to spot Sidney Crosby when tuning in for the first time.

More importantly, even the best hockey players play about 1/3rd of the game in about 45 second shifts.

Hockey is a niche sport - it always will be a niche sport. The players, through no fault of their own of course, will never be a lightning rod for mass expansion of the game.

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12-10-2012, 12:00 PM
  #423
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Nice response gramps, too bad it doesn't actually address any substance



Why would you compare it to the average person? They're professional athletes... They're the best at what they do. Plus the risk of injury in what they do is a hell of a lot higher than the average worker, especially with this concussion stuff these guys are putting their mental health for the rest of their lives on the line here. Realize I'm not saying they're heroes or they're selfless for doing so, but it's foolish to pretend they're just assured the good life once they get that first pro contract. Especially since we're mostly new yorkers here, 1.5 million isn't enough to last you 40 years here (assuming a middle class lifestyle). And it goes back to who deserves the money more, them or the owners. Because that's what you're looking at. You think Dolan should get more money instead?

I never said the fans should feel sorry for the players. I said the fans should be on the players side, because they're in the right and the owners in the wrong within this labor dispute. And by refusing to take sides you're letting the owners pull the **** they're pulling. Remember even the basics of what's going on, it's a lockout not a strike.
It depends on your point of view. On one hand, the players are the product. Without the players you don't have the league. On the other hand, it's the owners who are laying out the money to run the league, provide arena's etc...

I'd say a 50/50 split is fair. However, I could certainly see either side feeling that their worth is more than the other.

1.5 million is not enough to live a comfortable middle class lifestyle for the rest of your life in NY, but tell me exactly how it's the owners responsibility to ensure that a borderline NHLer who plays 3 years at the league minimum is paid enough to never have to work again another day in his life? - I generally fall on the side of the players, but this idea is ridiculous to me. John Smith who plays 3 seasons as an Islanders 4th liner and is out of league by age 25 is supposed to be guaranteed enough money to be set for life?

I'm no Dolan fan, but maybe he should get more money. He owns the team. He owns the Garden. He's laying out 70+million in player salaries, plus scouts, plus coaches, plus Garden employees. Why shouldn't he be entitled to 50%? Now forget Dolan and pretend your Wang - who doesn't own one of the 3-4 most profitable franchises in the league. Should this guy be scraping by? If I'm him I say screw it. This is a business. I'm here to make a profit. Don't forget that the salaries aren't made up mostly of minimum wage players - it's the players making 4+million a year.

At this point, I really don't care either way. Both parties will be paid in the end. I just want hockey.

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12-10-2012, 12:06 PM
  #424
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The players put the people in the seats. Unless you happen to know people who come to the arena to watch video of owners writing checks on the jumbotron.

This isn't a business model where there are thousands of viable candidates. In order for this model to be successful, you need the best of the best of a very small talent pool. You have to pay for that to happen. That's the way professional sports work. This mantra of "Oh, the players should be bending over. All they do is play hockey." is absurd. They spend their youth working towards the goal of playing hockey, and then have on average 5-6 years to earn enough money to give their families a good life. After that, it's a crap shoot. Jimmy Dolan will own the Rangers long after Stu Bickel retires.

The owners need the players as much as the players need the owners. Perhaps even more so.
Good points, and I generally agree.

But just to play devil's advocate, if you took the best 2nd tier/non-NHL players in the world and stuck them in Ranger jersey's reading Richards/Gaborik/Lundqvist/etc, how long do you think it'd take the fans to notice?

Alot of fans out there just root for a piece of laundry. And its the owners that support that piece of laundry and everything that goes with it.

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12-10-2012, 12:15 PM
  #425
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The players put the people in the seats. Unless you happen to know people who come to the arena to watch video of owners writing checks on the jumbotron.

This isn't a business model where there are thousands of viable candidates. In order for this model to be successful, you need the best of the best of a very small talent pool. You have to pay for that to happen. That's the way professional sports work. This mantra of "Oh, the players should be bending over. All they do is play hockey." is absurd. They spend their youth working towards the goal of playing hockey, and then have on average 5-6 years to earn enough money to give their families a good life. After that, it's a crap shoot. Jimmy Dolan will own the Rangers long after Stu Bickel retires.

The owners need the players as much as the players need the owners. Perhaps even more so.
To play devils advocate: There would be no jumbotron without the owners.. without the owners these guys would be teachers, bankers, hotel managers etc...

You have to draw the line somewhere - Set the cap: 50 million, 70 million, 90 million? You can keep saying that these guys only get a few years to make their money, but at what point does it become excessive? You could also say that owners should be capable of spending money and not needing a cap. I could also say that the haves would outspend the have nots and hurt competitive balance/the league. I could also say that the average fan will be shelling out more and more.. I guess the whole argument is moot...

There is plenty of money there. They both need each other. I'm tired of the nonsense - 50/50 split and let's go.

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