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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part VIIII: "We're Close" "We're Not Close" Edition

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Old
12-14-2012, 11:11 AM
  #801
alkurtz
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Lets draw a parallel with soccer.

30 years ago in the US, soccer was not even a niche sport...it was a "foreign" sport. Sure millions of kids played soccer in the fall, but that was because parents did not want their kids playing football, and local sports associations that ran Little League and winter basketball leagues, needed something for their kids to do when school started. But by the time those same kids, that started playing at age 5, reached 11 or 12, soccer participation fell off markedly. It happened in all sports, but more so in soccer. Few of those kids became lifelong soccer fans.

Now, 30 years later Soccer is surging in popularity in the US. Though it is sometimes easy to overestimate the growth of soccer (you will not hear one word about soccer on any of the sports talk radio shows in NYC), there is no doubting it has progressed from a foreign sport to a niche sport, and is threatening to become a mainstream sport.

Why? Simply exposure. People are finding out what a great and fascinating game it is. World class players and teams are on TV every week. Teams like Man U, Chelsea, Barcelona, and Arsenal, market themselves all over the world. MLS has a plan to grow the sport slowly but steadily, expanding into new markets.

Are you saying to me that hockey is less of a sport than soccer? Is it not, at least, as exciting? Isn't it more exciting (I am a soccer fan too)?

But soccer is not its worst enemy: it doesn't eat its own like hockey does. You cannot become a major player by having constant lockouts. Every time hockey seems to be on the verge of expanding is base with great events like the Winter Classic, it shoots itself in the foot bigtime.

If soccer can surge in the US, hockey can't? I know there are some advantages that soccer has that hockey doesn't (a strong Latino element who were fans before they came here and their children) so it has demographics on it side.

But, as much as I love soccer, it isn't hockey. It doesn't have the raw physical aspect and emotional drive that hockey does (though it certainly has aspects of it). There is no sport more exciting than hockey. I'm sure we've all had the chance to take a non-hockey fan to a game and seen them come away fans.

Of course hockey can succeed anywhere. Anyone who doesn't belief so is just plain wrong.

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12-14-2012, 11:19 AM
  #802
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Soccer doesn't cost a fortune to play competitively, and doesn't require consistent freezing temperatures to even pick up and play in your backyard.

You can also make the argument that America's shifting immigrant demographics over the last 30 yrs have led to the rise of soccer.

The sad truth is that hockey isn't a sport that the majority of the country has the ability to even play. Can you become a hockey fan without ever playing the game? Of course. But I don't see how a sport becomes mass mainstream without a large grassroots influence.

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12-14-2012, 11:23 AM
  #803
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Hockey doesn't require ice to just pick up and play. I skated on the lake I grew up next to in the winter, but a large portion of my hockey playing as a kid was on my driveway or in the street. All you need is a stick and a ball. Hockey fans over complicate this stuff.

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12-14-2012, 11:24 AM
  #804
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Soccer and hockey are similar, one of the reasons I took a liking to soccer after years of playing hockey.

I enjoy MLS but I don't see it passing the NHL on popularity, because it will never be the uncontested #1 league int he world. A little bit of North American egotism goes into that, I think, where we want the highest quality good. Could the MLS catch up to the Netherlands, Portugese, or even the French league? Yes, but I doubt it will reach the EPL, La Liga, Bundesliga, or Serie A.

So hockey, to me will always be the #4 sport. Its sheer overwhelming popularity among our neighbors to the north will buoy it no matter what.

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12-14-2012, 11:35 AM
  #805
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
Soccer doesn't cost a fortune to play competitively, and doesn't require consistent freezing temperatures to even pick up and play in your backyard.

You can also make the argument that America's shifting immigrant demographics over the last 30 yrs have led to the rise of soccer.

The sad truth is that hockey isn't a sport that the majority of the country has the ability to even play. Can you become a hockey fan without ever playing the game? Of course. But I don't see how a sport becomes mass mainstream without a large grassroots influence.
Ding Ding Ding, now we're getting to the fundamentals of it all.

We're all hockey fans here, and hockey fans are one of the most loyal and passionate groups in sports.

But you need to step out of that intense love of the game to analyze this situation objectively. Any arguments that hockey can be bigger, better, and more popular are rooted deeply into a personal love of the game.

A love that, unfortunately, most people around the nation - especially in the south - will never have.

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12-14-2012, 11:38 AM
  #806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
Hockey doesn't require ice to just pick up and play. I skated on the lake I grew up next to in the winter, but a large portion of my hockey playing as a kid was on my driveway or in the street. All you need is a stick and a ball. Hockey fans over complicate this stuff.
plenty of us if not all of us messed around like that...but youve still gotta go out and buy a goal, and youve gotta have several friends who also want to play. thats the problem, you can mess around in your backyard all you want in rural georgia, but if you cant get a game together, its just that...messing around. if you cant play in a league...its just messing around.

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12-14-2012, 11:39 AM
  #807
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Nobody here is expecting hockey to be more than an number 4 and we agree with it being a niche sport. None of these things really have much to do with the solvency of teams in non-traditional markets

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12-14-2012, 11:42 AM
  #808
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I mean this has been analyzed endlessly; Hockey is a sport that takes a lot of equipment and often certain conditions to play, even more so than American football.

But still, 60 to 70% of Canadian boys play some amount of hockey growing up. If it is strong enough in the culture it can still be very, very popular.

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12-14-2012, 12:02 PM
  #809
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Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
plenty of us if not all of us messed around like that...but youve still gotta go out and buy a goal, and youve gotta have several friends who also want to play. thats the problem, you can mess around in your backyard all you want in rural georgia, but if you cant get a game together, its just that...messing around. if you cant play in a league...its just messing around.
Of course that's true. I'm more equating this to tossing around a football or just going out to a field and smacking around a baseball. You use a trash can as a goal.

Kids do what their friends are doing. Increased exposure increases the likelihood.

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12-14-2012, 12:10 PM
  #810
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Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA Executive Board voted last night,to give players a vote to AUTHORIZE Exec Board to chose to proceed on Disclaimer of Interest #TSN

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12-14-2012, 12:17 PM
  #811
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Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA Executive Board voted last night,to give players a vote to AUTHORIZE Exec Board to chose to proceed on Disclaimer of Interest #TSN
Historically that means lockout is soon over.. Yeah right, this is the NHL!

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12-14-2012, 12:19 PM
  #812
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
Aaron Ward ‏@aaronward_nhl

NHLPA Executive Board voted last night,to give players a vote to AUTHORIZE Exec Board to chose to proceed on Disclaimer of Interest #TSN
Which... Is a lot like buying groceries for the week... It's doesn't mean you're making meatloaf tonight.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:48 PM
  #813
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Do iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit

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12-14-2012, 12:51 PM
  #814
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I am extremely skeptical decertification will actually compel the NHL to make a deal.

The league just seems to have no clue.

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Old
12-14-2012, 12:52 PM
  #815
-31-
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
Do iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit
Are you referring to disclaimer of interest or meat loaf?

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12-14-2012, 12:52 PM
  #816
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Originally Posted by HatTrick Swayze View Post
I am extremely skeptical decertification will actually compel the NHL to make a deal.

The league just seems to have no clue.
Bettman already said in his press conference that they have a different idea than the PA on what it means and aren't worried by it whatsoever.

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12-14-2012, 01:02 PM
  #817
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Bettman already said in his press conference that they have a different idea than the PA on what it means and aren't worried by it whatsoever.
Obviously they would have to do that. If they sent out signals they feared a decertification, the PA would decertify immediately.

I don't care who's most at fault anymore. Just end this mess and start the season.

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12-14-2012, 01:10 PM
  #818
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I know what decertification is, but what's the main difference between decertification and a disclaimer of interest?

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Old
12-14-2012, 01:12 PM
  #819
-31-
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I know what decertification is, but what's the main difference between decertification and a disclaimer of interest?
TSN's legal analyst did a piece on the two: here

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12-14-2012, 01:20 PM
  #820
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TSN's legal analyst did a piece on the two: here
Thank you.

I know the NBAPA did this last year. After they filed their disclaimer, did the NBA really get pressured to maybe loosen up on some issues? That's the purpose, not actual anti-trust lawsuits, right?

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12-14-2012, 01:32 PM
  #821
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
Thank you.

I know the NBAPA did this last year. After they filed their disclaimer, did the NBA really get pressured to maybe loosen up on some issues? That's the purpose, not actual anti-trust lawsuits, right?
If the players file I would like to see the owners fight the case in the courts.

Kind of reminds me of the film, The Maltese Falcon






Spade : If you kill me, how are you gonna get the bird? And if I know you can't afford to kill me, how are you gonna scare me into giving it to you?

Gutman : Well, sir, there are other means of persuasion besides killing and threatening to kill.

Spade : Yes, that's, that's true. But - they're none of 'em any good unless the threat of death is behind them - do you see what I mean? If you start something, I'll make it a matter of your having to kill me or call it off.

Gutman : [chuckling] That's an attitude, sir, that calls for the most delicate judgment on both sides. 'Cause as you know, sir, in the heat of action, men are likely to forget where their best interests lie and that their emotions carry them away.

Spade : Then the trick from my angle is to make my play strong enough to tie you up, but not make you mad enough to bump me off against your better judgment.


Gutman : By gad, sir, you are a character.

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12-14-2012, 01:37 PM
  #822
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Originally Posted by Henriks Broadway Hat View Post
Thank you.

I know the NBAPA did this last year. After they filed their disclaimer, did the NBA really get pressured to maybe loosen up on some issues? That's the purpose, not actual anti-trust lawsuits, right?
They reached an agreement soon after, but one could argue the two sides were already very close to an agreement.

Then again, you could say the same thing about the NHL one.

Them meaning a disclaimer of interest actually rather than as a negotiation tactic means players have to pay for lawsuits out of their own pockets and that they have so little confidence in their union there's no point in it. Clearly, that's the not the case.

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12-14-2012, 01:43 PM
  #823
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They reached an agreement soon after, but one could argue the two sides were already very close to an agreement.
When did that process start? Was the deadline to save the season also looming?

Seems to me that taking this to court is a process that may take a couple of weeks on it's own.

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12-14-2012, 01:50 PM
  #824
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i must have missed when soccer started 'surging' in the us...i thought to most american's soccer is a sport that little kids play until they are old enough to play real sports lol

if there was never another professional soccer game again i wouldn't even notice...but i guess sadly thats what most people think about hockey too

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12-14-2012, 01:51 PM
  #825
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Obviously they would have to do that. If they sent out signals they feared a decertification, the PA would decertify immediately.
Yeah it's not up to the league to decide how relevant or important disclaiming is, it will be up to the judges who handle the lawsuits brought against the league

Quote:
Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
If the players file I would like to see the owners fight the case in the courts.

Kind of reminds me of the film, The Maltese Falcon
They will have to or they will be on the hook for huge amounts of money owed to the players, etc.

No pro sports league in the US wants to see something like this actually go to court

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